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Old
12-08-2010, 09:14 AM
  #76
phillyfanatic
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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
So that is the conclusion you make, that I hate the rushkie. Your logic as usual is flawed. Sorry any player that has played 20 odd games does not qualify as being a stud in goal. He has played very well. Let him go around the league more than 1 time and let the year play out before you start calling him a stud goalie. No it wasnít a good move signing Leighton so stop trying to justify it, you like him, I am happy for you. When the have the flyers carnival maybe you can get a picture and Leighton and Mezaros together with yourself. Then you can frame it, put it in your bedroom for you to view every night before you got o bed. Leighton probably wont be here though so you will have to settle for Mezaros only.
I think Leighton might be good enough to take us to the Stanley Cup. Actually, I think he already has. I think Marty Turco sucks and would have been a downgrade. I think Nabokov was too expensive. I think Chris Mason sucks. I think Dan Ellis is as unproven as Leighton. So, signing Leighton and adding Bob was a good move. I was one who wanted to pursue Tim Thomas this offeason or sign Leighton. I thought we could get Thomas with money saved on Gagne, but that would have led to problems in signing Giroux and Carter, so I understand not taking on that contract. I think Leighton did well enough for us last year that he deserved his contract and if we would have replaced him with one of the guys on the market this year, we would have made a mistake.

Again, everything I read said - management was comfortable starting the year with Leighton/Boucher. They were very comfortable with the future prospect of Bob and Eriksson. They decided to bolster their defense and pursue a cup with very strong D and keep their top 9 forwards very strong with an extra emphasis down the middle.

That is our formula. Strong on D, Strong down the middle with three lines that can score. That is a formula that will allow a Leighton to take a team to a Stanley Cup. That is a formula that can allow a rookie goalie on a hot streak to win a Stanley Cup. Not like it hasn't been done before. Cam Ward was brilliant in replacing Gerber and Laviolette rode that rookie all the way to a cup win! I think he believes Bob has similar skills -and so do I.

On the "stud" goalie. I am not nominating him for the Vezina or the hall of fame. All I'm saying is, he is a stud goalie right now. He has been a stud all year and he is dominant every time I see him play. The kid is a stud right now. He is a top 5 goalie in the league right now 30 games in. Who amongst us would have thought that? I believe he will be at the all-star game and he will win the rookie of the year. I think when this season is done, he will jump into the top 10 ranked goalies in the league. He looks like a stud and I think he is one.

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12-08-2010, 09:32 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
I think Leighton might be good enough to take us to the Stanley Cup. Actually, I think he already has. I think Marty Turco sucks and would have been a downgrade. I think Nabokov was too expensive. I think Chris Mason sucks. I think Dan Ellis is as unproven as Leighton. So, signing Leighton and adding Bob was a good move. I was one who wanted to pursue Tim Thomas this offeason or sign Leighton. I thought we could get Thomas with money saved on Gagne, but that would have led to problems in signing Giroux and Carter, so I understand not taking on that contract. I think Leighton did well enough for us last year that he deserved his contract and if we would have replaced him with one of the guys on the market this year, we would have made a mistake.

Again, everything I read said - management was comfortable starting the year with Leighton/Boucher. They were very comfortable with the future prospect of Bob and Eriksson. They decided to bolster their defense and pursue a cup with very strong D and keep their top 9 forwards very strong with an extra emphasis down the middle.

That is our formula. Strong on D, Strong down the middle with three lines that can score. That is a formula that will allow a Leighton to take a team to a Stanley Cup. That is a formula that can allow a rookie goalie on a hot streak to win a Stanley Cup. Not like it hasn't been done before. Cam Ward was brilliant in replacing Gerber and Laviolette rode that rookie all the way to a cup win! I think he believes Bob has similar skills -and so do I.

On the "stud" goalie. I am not nominating him for the Vezina or the hall of fame. All I'm saying is, he is a stud goalie right now. He has been a stud all year and he is dominant every time I see him play. The kid is a stud right now. He is a top 5 goalie in the league right now 30 games in. Who amongst us would have thought that? I believe he will be at the all-star game and he will win the rookie of the year. I think when this season is done, he will jump into the top 10 ranked goalies in the league. He looks like a stud and I think he is one.
Leighton didnít carry the team to the cup. He had a hand in it but he clearly didnít carry them, he was the main reason they lost the cup. Not to you though as there were several other reason right? You have no idea how those other goalies would perform on this team. They have all had regular steady nhl jobs over the last few years. They have not been up and down through the minors and back like leighton has been. He is a late bloomer though right? Ellisd has sucked this year but he is way more proven than Leighton. Based on your Mezaros theory ellis would be great here no?

They were so comfortable they looked at other options in goal. Well the formula didnít work with Leighton in goal did it? Last I checked the flyers lost, because of inadequate goaltending.

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12-08-2010, 09:58 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
Leighton didnít carry the team to the cup. He had a hand in it but he clearly didnít carry them, he was the main reason they lost the cup. Not to you though as there were several other reason right? You have no idea how those other goalies would perform on this team. They have all had regular steady nhl jobs over the last few years. They have not been up and down through the minors and back like leighton has been. He is a late bloomer though right? Ellisd has sucked this year but he is way more proven than Leighton. Based on your Mezaros theory ellis would be great here no?

They were so comfortable they looked at other options in goal. Well the formula didnít work with Leighton in goal did it? Last I checked the flyers lost, because of inadequate goaltending.
The main reason we lost the cup is because Chicago was a better team than us. YOu all act like we should have won, I think we should have lost. Leighton wasn't good, but our 5-6 pairing was terrible and other than Leino-Briere-Hartnell we lost our scoring. We lost to a better team.

Lets break down your quotes:
"You have no idea how those other goalies would perform on this team. They have all had regular steady nhl jobs over the last few years."
- I know how Turco looks in Chicago - terrible. Just like I thought he would look in Philly. I didn't see an upgrade in free agency over Leighton. He took us to a cup final and he was a HUGE reason we beat Boston and his three shutouts against Monttreal were a team effort, but still pretty damn good.

"They have all had regular steady nhl jobs over the last few years. They have not been up and down through the minors and back like leighton has been. He is a late bloomer though right? Ellisd has sucked this year but he is way more proven than Leighton. Based on your Mezaros theory ellis would be great here no?"
- I have been through this before. Leighton was great on this team last year. Turco was run out of Dallas, Ellis was never able to get past backup, Mason was good on a bad team and Nabokov was too expensive. Of all the goalies, I liked Ellis the best. But him and Leighton would be the same risk.


"They were so comfortable they looked at other options in goal. Well the formula didnít work with Leighton in goal did it? Last I checked the flyers lost, because of inadequate goaltending"
- They did their due diligence. They looked into guys, kicked some tires and stuck to what they had. No problem with that. Again, they didn't lose because of inadequate goaltending. They got to the finals with great goaltending and lost to the best team in the NHL. This year, that team is not even close to as good and we are better. I think we are the team to beat (Pitt, us, whoever comes out of the west). The cup is very hard to win, management for the fourth year in a row has assembled a team that has a very good chance to win it. That is all I ask for.

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12-08-2010, 10:03 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
The main reason we lost the cup is because Chicago was a better team than us. YOu all act like we should have won, I think we should have lost. Leighton wasn't good, but our 5-6 pairing was terrible and other than Leino-Briere-Hartnell we lost our scoring. We lost to a better team.
We SHREDDED Niemi. Whether Chicago had better skaters or not, adequate -- just ADEQUATE -- goaltending from our side and we win that series. But, no, as predicted when Leighton saw a real offense in a series they opened him up like a tin can.

Leighton will not backstop a team to the Stanley Cup. Too many holes in his game that are easy to pick apart with scouting and a game plan. That was the same situation with Cechmanek, who was a much better goalie than Leighton.

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12-08-2010, 10:08 AM
  #80
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The Flyers are uniquely positioned to weather storms like injuries to star players and still get enough scoring or D to win. And if need be, as you say, there are a lots of ways they can free up cap room easy to acquire someone.

Last year we lost our starting goalie to injury, picked up a waiver wire miracle in his place, had our backup carry us into the playoffs and through a series until the #1 was back. We also had Carter break his foot in March, Gagne break his toe, Carter came back and broke his other foot, and we still made it to the finals.

Teams like Pitt, Wash or Boston could not survive injuries like that to their top players. Malkin, Green or Chara go down and they are done. The Flyers can weather comparable losses because we aren't so dependent on a few players. Even if we lost a top F or D for an extended time, we have the depth to move someone up the roster.

And some of our kids are coming on. JVR is playing great. Nodl is making himself indispensible in the top 9. He's really contributing on offense, making nice passes and finishing his chances. I love Carcillo, but Nodl's strong play is keeping Powe out of the top 9 and Danny in the pressbox.
Interesting theory given how much this teams success has been tied to the PP over the last few years. If you take a Timonen or Pronger off the back end, you'll see a significant hit to this clubs play -- and, no, there's no way to replace that and that's just the way it is. So, to suggest that we are relatively immune to an injury having a significant effect on us is a bit ridiculous. We've seen it in the past when Timonen has gone down.

Similarly, if one of our centers went down and we moved Carter back to center we'd have some potential problems given the way we like to play our forward lines (none of them being a "checking" line at all until you get to the 4th line)...

Would the team still be good? Absolutely... would you want to be able to pick up a wing that could contribute a bit more? Yep.

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12-08-2010, 11:03 AM
  #81
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Interesting theory given how much this teams success has been tied to the PP over the last few years. If you take a Timonen or Pronger off the back end, you'll see a significant hit to this clubs play -- and, no, there's no way to replace that and that's just the way it is. So, to suggest that we are relatively immune to an injury having a significant effect on us is a bit ridiculous. We've seen it in the past when Timonen has gone down.

Similarly, if one of our centers went down and we moved Carter back to center we'd have some potential problems given the way we like to play our forward lines (none of them being a "checking" line at all until you get to the 4th line)...

Would the team still be good? Absolutely... would you want to be able to pick up a wing that could contribute a bit more? Yep.
The difference this year is Meszaros and O'Donnell. Even if one of Pronger and Timonen goes down, I think the remaining five + Bartulis is still better than what we were trotting out there last year. And if Nodl and JVR keep bringing it, the offense is deeper too. Unlike years past where Carcillo and the like were in the top 9, every guy on the top three lines seems to belong on a scoring line this year. No team is immune to injuries, but the Flyers are certainly better constructed to deal with them now than they have been in any season in recent memory.

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12-08-2010, 11:17 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
The difference this year is Meszaros and O'Donnell. Even if one of Pronger and Timonen goes down, I think the remaining five + Bartulis is still better than what we were trotting out there last year. And if Nodl and JVR keep bringing it, the offense is deeper too. Unlike years past where Carcillo and the like were in the top 9, every guy on the top three lines seems to belong on a scoring line this year. No team is immune to injuries, but the Flyers are certainly better constructed to deal with them now than they have been in any season in recent memory.
Our problem is really the PP, IMO. Carle and Meszaros have proven to be decidedly ineffective on the PP. One of the primary reasons the PP has struggled this year is that we're getting absolutely nada from the 2nd pairing D. Carle and Meszaros both get something like 2.5 minutes a game on the PP for this team, and they have a combined 1 point on the PP (Pronger and Timonen have 15 combined).

Carle was better last year (14 pts on the PP in roughly the same TOI), and Coburn didn't help much at all in a bit under 2 minutes a game.

Now, the problem with this is that a lot of our scorers are simply better PP scorers than even strength scorers. So, when the PP struggles it can really hinder us. This will be mitigated with our improved defense (though, we still need to cut down the penalties against).

In any event, losing a few specific guys would have a significantly bad effect on this team... still. Even with our wealth of depth.

This isn't a harsh criticism of the team... we should compete for a top spot in the East all year. Of course, we should have last year too... but the special teams units went in the tank for about a month and we got brutalized.

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12-08-2010, 11:58 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Our problem is really the PP, IMO. Carle and Meszaros have proven to be decidedly ineffective on the PP. One of the primary reasons the PP has struggled this year is that we're getting absolutely nada from the 2nd pairing D. Carle and Meszaros both get something like 2.5 minutes a game on the PP for this team, and they have a combined 1 point on the PP (Pronger and Timonen have 15 combined).

Carle was better last year (14 pts on the PP in roughly the same TOI), and Coburn didn't help much at all in a bit under 2 minutes a game.

Now, the problem with this is that a lot of our scorers are simply better PP scorers than even strength scorers. So, when the PP struggles it can really hinder us. This will be mitigated with our improved defense (though, we still need to cut down the penalties against).

In any event, losing a few specific guys would have a significantly bad effect on this team... still. Even with our wealth of depth.

This isn't a harsh criticism of the team... we should compete for a top spot in the East all year. Of course, we should have last year too... but the special teams units went in the tank for about a month and we got brutalized.
Our first PP unit suffers because Timonen doesn't have a respectable shot. Our 2nd PP unit suffers because Carle has an even worse one.

Teams cheat Pronger's one timer (which is all the 1st unit ever tries to ****ing do) and Mes barely even gets a chance to use his cannon.

If we put Pronger, Mes and Richards in the umbrella together then we would have 3 legit slap shots for teams to cover, then you put Hartnell in front and Carter in the slot for rebounds. Then the 2nd unit could have Timonen and Carle basically just as puck movers (which is their strength) and alot of down low cycle play from Briere, Leino and Giroux (which all 3 are very good at).

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12-08-2010, 12:28 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by agrudez View Post
Our first PP unit suffers because Timonen doesn't have a respectable shot. Our 2nd PP unit suffers because Carle has an even worse one.

Teams cheat Pronger's one timer (which is all the 1st unit ever tries to ****ing do) and Mes barely even gets a chance to use his cannon.

If we put Pronger, Mes and Richards in the umbrella together then we would have 3 legit slap shots for teams to cover, then you put Hartnell in front and Carter in the slot for rebounds. Then the 2nd unit could have Timonen and Carle basically just as puck movers (which is their strength) and alot of down low cycle play from Briere, Leino and Giroux (which all 3 are very good at).
Timonen has a respectable shot, he just plays the left point and that neutralizes his shot considerably (he can't face up for a one-timer there like Pronger does). This is one of the reasons everyone always stresses out about all our lefty D.

Pronger, Mes, and Richards are all left handed as well... so it's only going to be the guys on the right side of the ice that will be in a position to deliver the one-timer in that setup.

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12-08-2010, 12:39 PM
  #85
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Timonen has a respectable shot, he just plays the left point and that neutralizes his shot considerably (he can't face up for a one-timer there like Pronger does). This is one of the reasons everyone always stresses out about all our lefty D.

Pronger, Mes, and Richards are all left handed as well... so it's only going to be the guys on the right side of the ice that will be in a position to deliver the one-timer in that setup.
Which is why Briere really needs to be on the flank of the umbrella. His shot isn't a monster, but it's quick and accurate.

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12-08-2010, 01:27 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Timonen has a respectable shot, he just plays the left point and that neutralizes his shot considerably (he can't face up for a one-timer there like Pronger does). This is one of the reasons everyone always stresses out about all our lefty D.

Pronger, Mes, and Richards are all left handed as well... so it's only going to be the guys on the right side of the ice that will be in a position to deliver the one-timer in that setup.
I see your point with the lefty shots, but let me pose a question to you:

If Richards has the puck on the left halfwall and Timonen is tee'd up for a one-timer at the top of the left circle and Pronger is tee'd up for a one-timer at the top of the right circle, would you cheat over to block Pronger's potential shot and allow Timonen a more open lane?

I would.

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Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
Which is why Briere really needs to be on the flank of the umbrella. His shot isn't a monster, but it's quick and accurate.
That is true, but his true strength is behind the net.

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12-08-2010, 02:21 PM
  #87
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That is true, but his true strength is behind the net.
I agree. I think Briere should be on the first PP unit at center, as I think he is our best PP player and excels at playing behind/near the net with his quick little bursts to the front and popping one in.

Last year I had thought Richards should play the point again (although he is hit or miss there), and Timonen/Carle be on the 2nd unit. However, this year with the addition of Mez, that gives 4 defenders who can play the PP (never thought Coburn was particularly good on the PP). So Richards would either have to play the wing on the first unit or center the second unit. Hell, in some ways I would like to see the Hartnell-Briere-Leino line out on the PP. Their cycling game could work wonders up a man. Of course that leaves Richards-Carter-Giroux on the 2nd unit, and that combination was not particularly good to start the season.

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12-08-2010, 02:30 PM
  #88
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That is true, but his true strength is behind the net.
The way our PP is setup it rotates in and out of the umbrella. Leave Pronger where he is, put Timonen or Carle on the other point, and let Briere either run around down low or rotate up the half wall (Richards or Giroux could do the same from the other side). Richards used to find Briere sneaking in from half wall to back post all the time when Richie played point.

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12-08-2010, 04:48 PM
  #89
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I see your point with the lefty shots, but let me pose a question to you:

If Richards has the puck on the left halfwall and Timonen is tee'd up for a one-timer at the top of the left circle and Pronger is tee'd up for a one-timer at the top of the right circle, would you cheat over to block Pronger's potential shot and allow Timonen a more open lane?

I would.
Yes, which is why we put Pronger at the top and Timonen is who the puck works through. Prior to that, it was Richards over there (who also has a good one-timer). However, the point isn't that Pronger's shot isn't good (he has one of the better shots in the league from the point), it's that the supposed problem with Timonen's shot is inherent to the position he is playing on the ice... and no matter who you put there (unless they're a righty shot) isn't going to be able to crank 'em up.

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12-08-2010, 04:49 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
The way our PP is setup it rotates in and out of the umbrella. Leave Pronger where he is, put Timonen or Carle on the other point, and let Briere either run around down low or rotate up the half wall (Richards or Giroux could do the same from the other side). Richards used to find Briere sneaking in from half wall to back post all the time when Richie played point.
Our PP has been rather successful with Briere working through the left point along the half wall and down low. Not sure why folks want to mess with that. The problem right now is execution, not approach.

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12-08-2010, 04:59 PM
  #91
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12-08-2010, 05:02 PM
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One thing I really do not get is the revisionist history on the SCF when everybody says Chicago had a much better team than we did.

Game 1: We get any kind of decent goaltending, we win in a walk, I mean, that last goal that Boosh let in for Kopecky was ****ing BRUTAL.

Game 2: We lost 2-1 I believe and Chicago's 2nd goal was a simply awful one by Eager, a slapper from outside the circle I believe.

Game 6: Again, DO WE NEED TO COVER THIS? One of the worst goals you will ever see and it happened in SCF OT in the clinching game?

I mean, with good goaltending, we very probably win that series and I remember saying that at the time that the series would turn on which goaltender was the least ****** and Niemi was the least ******.

But seriously, stop with the **** about how Chi-Town was so much better. Not that they didn't deserve it and I like that team, but we would have won that series with decent goaltending, end of story.

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12-08-2010, 05:03 PM
  #93
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Our PP has been rather successful with Briere working through the left point along the half wall and down low. Not sure why folks want to mess with that. The problem right now is execution, not approach.
Are you agreeing with me or someone else here? That's exactly where I want Briere: rotating between Timonen's half wall and the back of the net.

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12-08-2010, 05:36 PM
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Are you agreeing with me or someone else here? That's exactly where I want Briere: rotating between Timonen's half wall and the back of the net.
That sounds dirty.

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12-08-2010, 05:43 PM
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Are you agreeing with me or someone else here? That's exactly where I want Briere: rotating between Timonen's half wall and the back of the net.
isnt that what he is already doing?

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12-08-2010, 06:06 PM
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Are you agreeing with me or someone else here? That's exactly where I want Briere: rotating between Timonen's half wall and the back of the net.
agreeing with you.

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12-08-2010, 09:07 PM
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isnt that what he is already doing?
More or less. I'd like to see him get out from behind the net a little more than he does and attack from the wall rather than behind, but I'm nitpicking.

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12-09-2010, 01:13 PM
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This thread has me thinking now... How effective do we think Giroux would be if he took Carle's spot on the point on the 2nd unit? Probably something he's never done, but he's possibly the best passer on the team and he has a right handed shot. Not a big one, but he could fire off a quick shot or back door pass on a pass from the other point that Carle can't do. It also leaves Carter, Zherdev, Leino or Hartnell (I forget who plays 1st unit), and JVR to choose from for the 3 spots up front, so it's not like we don't have options there.

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12-09-2010, 02:03 PM
  #99
Jester
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Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
This thread has me thinking now... How effective do we think Giroux would be if he took Carle's spot on the point on the 2nd unit? Probably something he's never done, but he's possibly the best passer on the team and he has a right handed shot. Not a big one, but he could fire off a quick shot or back door pass on a pass from the other point that Carle can't do. It also leaves Carter, Zherdev, Leino or Hartnell (I forget who plays 1st unit), and JVR to choose from for the 3 spots up front, so it's not like we don't have options there.
I actually wish we'd run Timonen and Richards as one "D" pairing, and Carle and Pronger as the other.

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Old
12-09-2010, 10:38 PM
  #100
CantSeeColors
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I actually wish we'd run Timonen and Richards as one "D" pairing, and Carle and Pronger as the other.
I'd be fine with that. Richards used to find Briere on the back door all the time with that slap pass thing he does. Keeps the pairs in order for the shift after the PP expires too.

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