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Possible trade with St Louis?

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Old
12-09-2010, 12:45 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Lebanezer View Post
No Jackman, we might as well try to get Hannan back, except Jackman gets injured. He's not a significant enough upgrade.
Compared to Wallin and Huskins I'd say he is. Granted I wouldn't trade Seto, Clowe, or Couture for him. If McGinn has any value left I'd ship him off + prospects for Jackman. I love McGinn but not sure he's ever going to develop.

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12-09-2010, 12:48 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Flicktron View Post
I said to an extent. He's shown he can be an offensive player, he has the know-how, but with the confused defence, I don't think Vlasic gets a fair chance to be an offensive defencemen (mainly on the power play).

By the way, thanks for your reply.
He's gotten progressively worse offensively which is pretty disappointing. His shot is weak and he has very little awareness when it comes to finding an opening. The majority of his shots are blocked or so weak they never get through. He could learn a lot from Braun. Will never have the shot Braun has but taking that extra step or two as Drew always mentions is critical.

I will give you the fact like Vlasic doesn't get much if any PP time, and he certainly won't now with Braun and Demers around.

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12-09-2010, 07:28 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by SharksAddict View Post
Compared to Wallin and Huskins I'd say he is. Granted I wouldn't trade Seto, Clowe, or Couture for him. If McGinn has any value left I'd ship him off + prospects for Jackman. I love McGinn but not sure he's ever going to develop.
Jackman's cap hit is 3.625 Million, for that money, he's simply not good enough. He just doesn't fit with the Sharks.

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12-09-2010, 01:22 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Lebanezer View Post
Jackman's cap hit is 3.625 Million, for that money, he's simply not good enough. He just doesn't fit with the Sharks.
Agreed. We need an offensive defenseman, and Jackman really isn't one.

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12-09-2010, 01:29 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by rangerssharks414 View Post
Agreed. We need an offensive defenseman, and Jackman really isn't one.
Truth be told, I don't believe we can land a solid 2-way defenseman without having to sacrifice a lot; it is either one or the other. So the more probably choice would be to gain a PMD, or a stay-at-home defenseman.

With the likes of Boyle, Demers, and Braun (Vlasic should be in there but wtf); that leaves the logical choice to a stay-at-home.

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12-09-2010, 01:33 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Chaotic8 View Post
Truth be told, I don't believe we can land a solid 2-way defenseman without having to sacrifice a lot; it is either one or the other. So the more probably choice would be to gain a PMD, or a stay-at-home defenseman.

With the likes of Boyle, Demers, and Braun (Vlasic should be in there but wtf); that leaves the logical choice to a stay-at-home.
As great as Braun has been, he's still a very young, very raw, rookie. I will be shocked if he can hold up for an entire regular season let alone the playoffs. At some point that kid is going to hit the wall (like Demers did last year).

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12-09-2010, 02:17 PM
  #57
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As great as Braun has been, he's still a very young, very raw, rookie. I will be shocked if he can hold up for an entire regular season let alone the playoffs. At some point that kid is going to hit the wall (like Demers did last year).
Undoubtedly we need both - the difference is our pipeline seems to be tailored more towards the mobility within the development of our youth in the years upcoming, while the defensive specialists seem to be a little less. I think that for the sake of this year we need to find another PMD because Braun will need more time in the minors and Demers should have less minutes in favor of somebody more established, but at the end of the season: we need to pick up someone who can play defense. The more we put on the shoulders of Murray and Vlasic (ie - Blake is gone), the less sure I feel about our ability to solidify the game in our own end.

And bottom line is anyone who can do both, is probably going to cost us a pick or some sort of asset. How long before we start looking at McGinn, Seto or Mitchell in a package for this type of player... and who would it be? For the record, I am against trading Seto with his value so low, his potential so high, and his inconsistency which for all intents and purposes could be fixed with a couple more years in the system. So far, I don't know what more McGinn and Mitchell will provide us aside from their speed.

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12-09-2010, 02:36 PM
  #58
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I don't understand why everyone is so sure Seto's value is low right now. It's as if people on HF think they know he's worth more, but GM's can't figure that out.

He is young and has struggled lately, but he's young and still an RFA at a low salary who still has excellent potential. We aren't the only ones who can see that.

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12-09-2010, 02:49 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
I don't understand why everyone is so sure Seto's value is low right now. It's as if people on HF think they know he's worth more, but GM's can't figure that out.

He is young and has struggled lately, but he's young and still an RFA at a low salary who still has excellent potential. We aren't the only ones who can see that.
One would think because he's been injured, and not producing that his value might be lower than say.... a healthy and productive year?

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12-09-2010, 02:50 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
As great as Braun has been, he's still a very young, very raw, rookie. I will be shocked if he can hold up for an entire regular season let alone the playoffs. At some point that kid is going to hit the wall (like Demers did last year).
No doubt. But hopefully he'll follow generally the same path as Demers. Send him back down once Huskins is ready, bring him back up near the playoffs and hope he can secure a spot. Demers did that pretty well last year, McLellan just went the stupid route and only gave him like 2 minutes of ice time per game in the Chicago series.

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12-09-2010, 02:58 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Longfin View Post
One would think because he's been injured, and not producing that his value might be lower than say.... a healthy and productive year?
It's a bit of a bargaining point, not much more. He's worth what he's worth. The fact that he had an injury, is young and still has serious potential is a bargaining point that his value should be more than if he was simply trailing off. He was also not getting the opportunities to put up the numbers with the top 2 lines with Couture, Pav's and Clowe playing well.

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12-09-2010, 03:17 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Longfin View Post
Undoubtedly we need both - the difference is our pipeline seems to be tailored more towards the mobility within the development of our youth in the years upcoming, while the defensive specialists seem to be a little less. I think that for the sake of this year we need to find another PMD because Braun will need more time in the minors and Demers should have less minutes in favor of somebody more established, but at the end of the season: we need to pick up someone who can play defense. The more we put on the shoulders of Murray and Vlasic (ie - Blake is gone), the less sure I feel about our ability to solidify the game in our own end.

And bottom line is anyone who can do both, is probably going to cost us a pick or some sort of asset. How long before we start looking at McGinn, Seto or Mitchell in a package for this type of player... and who would it be? For the record, I am against trading Seto with his value so low, his potential so high, and his inconsistency which for all intents and purposes could be fixed with a couple more years in the system. So far, I don't know what more McGinn and Mitchell will provide us aside from their speed.
I disagree on the pipeline. For defensive dmen, they have Petrecki, Joslin, Moore and Doherty. Joslin should have been a two-way but they are playing him as a defensive dman. On the PMD side, Demers, Braun and Schaus. The problem is that they started the year with only 2 PMDs, Demers and Boyle. Vlasic should not be considered a PMD for the last 2-1/2 years or so, and it has been getting worse, not better.

As stated before, it is OK if all of the top 4 are PMDs. It is not OK to pair defensive dmen. It is OK to pair PMDs. Top teams want all of the top 4 as PMDs.

For others:
For definitions sake:

PMD - puck moving dman - should get a minimum of 25 points over 80 games

Two-way dman - combines the 25/80 with the ability to be top 4 in qualcomp on the team over 80 games, top 4 TOI

Defensive dman - should be top 4 in qualcomp over 80 games, scores less than 20 points, probably 15 or less.

Top 4 - 20min/game TOI

Defensive stopper - top 2 in qualcomp on the team

On PP dmen, first unit should be well over 30 pts/year each with the #1 guy getting north of 40. Second unit should be close to 30 pts/year.

BTW, on Vlasic, he has been getting enough PP time that he should have points by that issue alone. The 0 points is really glaring. This was an issue last year as well. The PP efficiency dropped dramatically with Vlasic on the ice.


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12-09-2010, 03:29 PM
  #63
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The Sharks need to make a play for someone who can reduce Boyle's minutes. Boyle's 34 and if we want him to play out his contract at a high level, there needs to be another minute eating 2-way dman. If there is a possibility to make a deal for Pietroangelo or EJ (or my personal choice, Shea Weber, but that's another discussion) you have to seriously consider it. If it costs Pavs, or Clowe plus prospect dman and a 1st, you need to take a chance. Especially since we all know that Sharks are not great at developing players, particularly dmen.

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12-09-2010, 03:39 PM
  #64
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Honestly, for the price we're willing to pay and the return we're expecting to get, Carlo Colaiacovo might be the Sharks' best target from St. Louis. He's 27, on a short-term deal that's relatively cheap ($2.125M cap hit, $1.75M this year and $2.5M next), and from what I've seen of him is a pretty good player with decent offensive instincts. 30 and 32 points the last two years, and 9 points in 19 games this year (although he's also -8 on the year). I defer to someone else's expertise in parsing the advanced statistics, but on the surface that doesn't sound like a bad proposition.

Earlier in his career I know he had unbelievably bad luck with injuries, but he's played 73 and 67 games over the last two years, so while his injury history is worrisome it's not necessarily a deal breaker for me, at least not any moreso than Willie Mitchell's would have been.

Dangle a Torrey Mitchell or Jamie McGinn (or a not-1st-round pick) at St. Lou and see if they bite, perhaps. It certainly shouldn't cost much more than that.


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12-09-2010, 03:44 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by wraith985 View Post
Honestly, for the price we're willing to pay and the return we're expecting to get, Carlo Colaiacovo might be the Sharks' best target from St. Louis. He's 27, on a short-term deal that's relatively cheap ($2.125M cap hit, $1.75M this year and $2.5M next), and from what I've seen of him is a pretty good player with decent offensive instincts. 30 and 32 points the last two years, and 9 points in 19 games this year.

Earlier in his career I know he had unbelievably bad luck with injuries, but he's played 73 and 67 games over the last two years, so while his injury history is worrisome it's not necessarily a deal breaker for me, at least not any moreso than Willie Mitchell's would have been.

Dangle a Torrey Mitchell or Jamie McGinn (or a not-1st-round pick) at St. Lou and see if they bite, perhaps. It certainly shouldn't cost much more than that.
St. Louis said they want a scoring forward, so that certainly eliminates Mitchell, if not both of them. Sharks need to think big when they go out to acquire a dman, no more stop gaps. We need a stud or future stud.

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12-09-2010, 03:46 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Lebanezer View Post
St. Louis said they want a scoring forward, so that certainly eliminates Mitchell, if not both of them. Sharks need to think big when they go out to acquire a dman, no more stop gaps. We need a stud or future stud.
I happen to agree with you; I'd rather the Sharks do what it takes to get their hands on EJ, personally, even if it means giving up Pavelski or something similar in the deal. I'm just saying that based on what people here seem to be willing to give (which is to say, not much), Colaiacovo seems like the most reasonable candidate.

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12-09-2010, 03:54 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Lebanezer View Post
St. Louis said they want a scoring forward, so that certainly eliminates Mitchell, if not both of them. Sharks need to think big when they go out to acquire a dman, no more stop gaps. We need a stud or future stud.
It also eliminates Colaiacovo as he is not worth a scoring forward, not even Seto, much less Pavs, Couture or Clowe.

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12-09-2010, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by wraith985 View Post
I happen to agree with you; I'd rather the Sharks do what it takes to get their hands on EJ, personally, even if it means giving up Pavelski or something similar in the deal. I'm just saying that based on what people here seem to be willing to give (which is to say, not much), Colaiacovo seems like the most reasonable candidate.
Colaiacovo is reasonable in terms of price, but in terms of team needs, he's just not enough.

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12-09-2010, 04:15 PM
  #69
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McGinn
2nd (Sharks)




Niemi
Setoguchi
3rd (Sharks)




Halak
Ryder
2nd (Blues)

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12-09-2010, 04:36 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by SactoShark View Post


McGinn
2nd (Sharks)




Niemi
Setoguchi
3rd (Sharks)




Halak
Ryder
2nd (Blues)
That is an awful trade for the Bruins and the Blues. Just awful.

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12-09-2010, 04:58 PM
  #71
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I disagree on the pipeline. For defensive dmen, they have Petrecki, Joslin, Moore and Doherty. Joslin should have been a two-way but they are playing him as a defensive dman. On the PMD side, Demers, Braun and Schaus. The problem is that they started the year with only 2 PMDs, Demers and Boyle. Vlasic should not be considered a PMD for the last 2-1/2 years or so, and it has been getting worse, not better.

As stated before, it is OK if all of the top 4 are PMDs. It is not OK to pair defensive dmen. It is OK to pair PMDs. Top teams want all of the top 4 as PMDs.

For others:
For definitions sake:

PMD - puck moving dman - should get a minimum of 25 points over 80 games

Two-way dman - combines the 25/80 with the ability to be top 4 in qualcomp on the team over 80 games, top 4 TOI

Defensive dman - should be top 4 in qualcomp over 80 games, scores less than 20 points, probably 15 or less.

Top 4 - 20min/game TOI

Defensive stopper - top 2 in qualcomp on the team

On PP dmen, first unit should be well over 30 pts/year each with the #1 guy getting north of 40. Second unit should be close to 30 pts/year.

BTW, on Vlasic, he has been getting enough PP time that he should have points by that issue alone. The 0 points is really glaring. This was an issue last year as well. The PP efficiency dropped dramatically with Vlasic on the ice.
I guess I just figured giving the makeup of the team right now going into the season with only 2 PMD, one being Demers 2nd year, that we'd probably see Schaus, Braun and Demers making minutes sooner at the NHL level than Petrecki, Doherty, Joslin & Moore with all corps considered in health.

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12-09-2010, 05:08 PM
  #72
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That is an awful trade for the Bruins and the Blues. Just awful.
It was just a joke... The old Halak, Ryder and a 2nd trade proposal.

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12-09-2010, 05:16 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Longfin View Post
I guess I just figured giving the makeup of the team right now going into the season with only 2 PMD, one being Demers 2nd year, that we'd probably see Schaus, Braun and Demers making minutes sooner at the NHL level than Petrecki, Doherty, Joslin & Moore with all corps considered in health.
That's a reasonable assumption. My guess is that they thought Huskins could be a puckmover; he isn't. They were also giving credit to Vlasic and again that isn't happening. Like I said earlier, the top teams are trying to go for all PMDs. That doesn't mean they can't be stoppers. The last two teams to win without heavy PMDs were Carolina and Anaheim. Anaheim did it with two outstanding PMDs as their top two and Beauchemin as a distant third but still a PMD. BTW, Vlasic is not a stopper by the ratings either which is also hurtful.

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12-09-2010, 07:28 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Lebanezer View Post
St. Louis said they want a scoring forward, so that certainly eliminates Mitchell, if not both of them. Sharks need to think big when they go out to acquire a dman, no more stop gaps. We need a stud or future stud.
If you want the Sharks to target a stud or future stud, then we need to pay for it (more than Seto, a pick, and a prospect).

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12-09-2010, 07:35 PM
  #75
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It was just a joke... The old Halak, Ryder and a 2nd trade proposal.
My bad. I guess I forgot about that.

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