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Too little too late (Habs lose 4-2)

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Old
12-11-2010, 12:54 PM
  #276
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post

Also, you still havent' provided me with any evidence that we have been losing because of toughness, moreover, you still havent provided me with any evidence that toughness is our number one priority. If you're going to get involved in the debate at least blame the right people who started it.


4 hands aren't enough to count the number of times i said why i think we need to add toughness, you just refute with stuff you pull out from your ass all the time. You guys are ganging up on Jaybee because of his opinions in the thread where he has the right to talk about toughness. Better that then the useless remarks going on here and the NHL forum.

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12-11-2010, 01:03 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post


4 hands aren't enough to count the number of times i said why i think we need to add toughness, you just refute with stuff you pull out from your ass all the time. You guys are ganging up on Jaybee because of his opinions in the thread where he has the right to talk about toughness. Better that then the useless remarks going on here and the NHL forum.
Once again you evade the question.Tougness of lack there of has been far from the problem this year. in 30 games you can count on opne hand for how many times toughness is a problem.

And like I said a thousand times, toughness is one hole in the lineup, but it is far from being the main hole since the majority of our losses have come because of a lack offense from the top 6 and a lack of offense from the back. We have like 4 goals all year from D-men, you won't get far with that.

As for JayBee, sorry, you didn't start the thread my mistake. You're just the poster who keeps bumping it after every loss which insinuates that you think the losses are a result of a lack of toughness. You also took that argument to this thread as well saying that we lost to the Red Wings because they were tougher, so the intention of your bump was clear.

As for MaxPac, if you think we lost to the Red Wings because they were tougher, you're delusional. I'd say the major difference in that game is the lack of elite talent on our team and the abundance of elite talent on the Red Wings. Lidstrom, Zetterberg and Datsyuk alone are better than any player on our team, the problem(if there truly is one, considering that we matched the Red Wings until the penaltties occured) starts there...i.e depth in terms of skill. Every top team in the league has that in common(aside the Pens).

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12-11-2010, 01:13 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post

And like I said a thousand times, toughness is one hole in the lineup, but it is far from being the main hole since the majority of our losses have come because of a lack offense from the top 6 and a lack of offense from the back. We have like 4 goals all year from D-men, you won't get far with that.
And iike i said i don't know how many times and i hope you Mother****ing get it this time. I KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You're the one who won't accept that people talk about toughness because you feel that we need scoring 1st, as if we're aloud to talk about 1 problem at a time on HF.

Let's say you're right and we need a scoring forward 1st and foremost, it doesn't change that i HATE having a soft team because I, Jaybee, Asterix and a lot more like having a team that hits HARD, that feels fighting is 1.great for the game, 2. that it helps in the team's confidence and that 3. it's good entertainment when it happens. We want our skilled players that we do have protected, that's it.

Can you PLEASE just accept that last part once and for all and be done with it. Again, just to be sure you understand. We know that if toughness isn't worth crap against teams like Detroit and we know that we also have other needs, mainly top 6 firepower.

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12-11-2010, 01:21 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
And iike i said i don't know how many times and i hope you Mother****ing get it this time. I KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You're the one who won't accept that people talk about toughness because you feel that we need scoring 1st, as if we're aloud to talk about 1 problem at a time on HF.

Let's say you're right and we need a scoring forward 1st and foremost, it doesn't change that i HATE having a soft team because I, Jaybee, Asterix and a lot more like having a team that hits HARD, that feels fighting is 1.great for the game, 2. that it helps in the team's confidence and that 3. it's good entertainment when it happens. We want our skilled players that we do have protected, that's it.

Can you PLEASE just accept that last part once and for all and be done with it. Again, just to be sure you understand. We know that if toughness isn't worth crap against teams like Detroit and we know that we also have other needs, mainly top 6 firepower.
My argument is those who over exaggerate the situation ala JayBee, then you sweep in and defend (not because you necessarily agree, but for wtv reason), when a thread about toughness is constantly bump after a loss, then I have a right to go in and check the views and discuss which ones I disagree with.

There is a clear distinction about having a thread which discusses how to address the hole where we lack toughness. This is completely different from having a thread about toughness where posters who exaggerate use to complain about losses which have nothing to do with toughness. Also, when the argument in favor of toughness is a highly exaggerated like we'll have trouble facing tougher teams which has never ever been the case this season. That's who I am addressing my concerns to. If you can't distinguish that, then don't get involved. You jumped into my debate and not the other way around because you did so, its up to you to understand what the debate is about and not for me to accomodate you.

I'm all for having a discussion about how we can address toughnes, I am not in favor of having a discussion which attributes losses to toughness because that is false.

Lastly, no one in habs management gives a rats ass if you like toughness or if its the style you prefer. Jacques Martin has a well excuted system that required certain types of players. The priority is to win and Martin system with the right personnel allows for the team to win. That is why they get the players they do. They care about winning first, not fans preferences. Martin prefers a team built on speed and quick counter attack and they pursue those types of players which compliment the system. That is the difference between posters like me and you. There are a lot of things I prefer, but I am a realist, I understand that our team in one among 30 and that **** is limited, you obviously don't.

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12-11-2010, 01:31 PM
  #280
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K, but never did anybody mention that we lost to the Wings because of lack of toughness, it's a coincidence. You're the one who talked about the Wings 1st, i just re-checked.

And that blaming a loss on toughness thing, again, what do you want us to do?

After we lose: Stop blaming our losses on toughness when we lack a top 6 forward...

After we win: We just won, stop complaining about thoughness, we managed to beat San Jose, Vancouver and the Kings....

It's incredibly difficult to defend a point nowadays.

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12-11-2010, 01:35 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
K, but never did anybody mention that we lost to the Wings because of lack of toughness, it's a coincidence. You're the one who talked about the Wings 1st, i just re-checked.

And that blaming a loss on toughness thing, again, what do you want us to do?

After we lose: Stop blaming our losses on toughness when we lack a top 6 forward...

After we win: We just won, stop complaining about thoughness, we managed to beat San Jose, Vancouver and the Kings....

It's incredibly difficult to defend a point nowadays.
I read this thread first and then that one. Jaybee was compolaining about toughness and the redwings in this one. I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt since he complained in here about toughness in the redwings game.

I never complain after a loss because of the things we do lack, most of my complaints are about execution of the game plan which a large part of the reason why we lose. My complaints about lack of top 6 and lack of scoring come when the topic of discussion is about team needs.

And no it's not difficult to defend a point when you are rational and don't completely overexaggerate like JayBee does. I argue with habsjunkie2 every other week, but the debates are rather calm because he expresses his points well and seldom exaggerates. I even argue with posters I agree with like KrissE at times. But the difference is, he's rational and willing to listen to different viewpoints so long as those too are rational.

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12-11-2010, 01:41 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
I read this thread first and then that one. Jaybee was compolaining about toughness and the redwings in this one. I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt since he complained in here about toughness in the redwings game.

I never complain after a loss because of the things we do lack, most of my complaints are about execution of the game plan which a large part of the reason why we lose. My complaints about lack of top 6 and lack of scoring come when the topic of discussion is about team needs.

And no it's not difficult to defend a point when you are rational and don't completely overexaggerate like JayBee does. I argue with habsjunkie2 every other week, but the debates are rather calm because he expresses his points well and seldom exaggerates. I even argue with posters I agree with like KrissE at times. But the difference is, he's rational and willing to listen to different viewpoints so long as those too are rational.
Is it rational to bring the toughness issue in the Desharnais thread?

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12-11-2010, 01:44 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
Is it rational to bring the toughness issue in the Desharnais thread?
if you take it out of context no,but if you leave it in context,yes. That point is meant solely for coolasprice, not you not jaybee not anyone else. He knows what I'm talking about, it was an argument between him and me, so yes and regards desharnais and why he stayed down. Which i said it was because there was no room and he said because it was he was small.

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Old
12-11-2010, 01:48 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
Once again you evade the question.Tougness of lack there of has been far from the problem this year. in 30 games you can count on opne hand for how many times toughness is a problem.

And like I said a thousand times, toughness is one hole in the lineup, but it is far from being the main hole since the majority of our losses have come because of a lack offense from the top 6 and a lack of offense from the back. We have like 4 goals all year from D-men, you won't get far with that.

As for JayBee, sorry, you didn't start the thread my mistake. You're just the poster who keeps bumping it after every loss which insinuates that you think the losses are a result of a lack of toughness. You also took that argument to this thread as well saying that we lost to the Red Wings because they were tougher, so the intention of your bump was clear.
I do?

When is the right time to talk about it?

Offseason? "Wait till the season starts"
After a win? "Shut up, you're so negative, we won"
After a loss? "stop complaining"

I honestly don't know when to talk about the lack of size in the top 6. Can you tell me when I'm allowed to?

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12-11-2010, 01:49 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by shortcat1 View Post
I wonder what Detroit'll be like when some of their older players are gone.

Holmstrom (37), Lidstrom (40) & Rafalski (37)are nearing the end of their time.

Datsyuk (32) & Franzen (31) are still young, I know, but they're reaching a time where injuries may become more of an issue for them.

Though they're minor players on the team, Draper (39) & Salei (36) and maybe Bertuzzi (35) are getting up there.

That's lots of terrific talent and experience and the Wings are justifiably reaping the benefits of that.

Nevertheless, who's going to replace them? Abdelkader, Helm, Hudler, Ericsson & Kindl?

I don't think so.

I'm guessing that, in about three (four at the most) years, Detroit'll be mainly Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Howard. They'll be accompanied by a bunch of mid-talented role players. Something like the Penguins but with two 'Sydney Crosbys'.


(By the way, THE up and coming team seems to be the Flyers. The Kings, the Oilers, the Coyotes(?) & the Bruins are also potential contenders in the 'who's gonna be more of a threat in the next few years' category.

Our boys will get better, I imagine, but certainly not to the extent of the Flyers unless they get some ridiculously unexpected developments from their existing prospects and/or unexpectedly terrific draft picks and/or some really talented players unexpectedly decide to come over to our team without blowing away the cap.

That's all OK 'cause this is fun, whatever happens.)
Was working on the Wings prospects recently, gotta give them credit for great scouting and development, lotta depth and they spend a long time learning to play the game a certain way before they make the big club.

But the hard facts are that there is no one even close to replacing Detroit's key players and time is running out.

Montreal's young core however is coming out guns blazing (Price, PK, Lars, Benny, Pleks, AK46 and Lapierre) and the next wave of prospects (Patches, Palushaj, Nash, Avtsin, White and Weber) are going to get a thorough education on playing Habs hockey before they get thrown into the mix.

Wings will still be a good team and maybe Brendan Smith, Pulkkinen, Jarnkrok, Mitch Callahan, Nestrasil and Tomas Tatar will make a new core as good as the old one.

The future looks very bright for the Habs though, last night was a test against the best and that third period served notice that there is a new challenger.

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Old
12-11-2010, 02:00 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
I do?

When is the right time to talk about it?

Offseason? "Wait till the season starts"
After a win? "Shut up, you're so negative, we won"
After a loss? "stop complaining"

I honestly don't know when to talk about the lack of size in the top 6. Can you tell me when I'm allowed to?
But size isn't really a huge issue,

Cammalleri (small) - Gomez (avg) - Moen (big)
AK (big) - Plek (avg) - Gionta (small)

The big problem is that one of these is not like the other (we all know which one). If we can replace him with another big body who can actually contribute to the offense then we are just fine in terms of size/skill/speed in the top 6. Atleast that's what I think. If Eller was ready to replace Gomez at center, even better, but he's not quite there yet.

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Old
12-11-2010, 02:02 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
if you take it out of context no,but if you leave it in context,yes. That point is meant solely for coolasprice, not you not jaybee not anyone else. He knows what I'm talking about, it was an argument between him and me, so yes and regards desharnais and why he stayed down. Which i said it was because there was no room and he said because it was he was small.
My point is you're obsessing about it as much as everyone else is. The more i think about it, that arguement about "after a loss.." makes less and less sence. It's like that with every thread on the Habs board. When Eller gets a goal or an assist, 3 new pages are added the next moring in the Eller thread. As if we're supposed to talk about toughness on a sunday night when the Habs aren't playing until the next Wednesday just to be sure we don't blam a loss on toughness.

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Old
12-11-2010, 02:45 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
But size isn't really a huge issue,

Cammalleri (small) - Gomez (avg) - Moen (big)
AK (big) - Plek (avg) - Gionta (small)

The big problem is that one of these is not like the other (we all know which one). If we can replace him with another big body who can actually contribute to the offense then we are just fine in terms of size/skill/speed in the top 6. Atleast that's what I think. If Eller was ready to replace Gomez at center, even better, but he's not quite there yet.
The only guys who hit is Moen and AK. That's a problem IMO.

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12-11-2010, 06:03 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
The only guys who hit is Moen and AK. That's a problem IMO.
I still do not know why you bring the toughness issue to the mainboard. There are a lot of Habs' haters there. What do you expect to get?

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12-11-2010, 06:05 PM
  #290
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Just cracked the first Brew! GO HABS GO!!

awesome opening on CBC!!!

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12-11-2010, 06:08 PM
  #291
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on cbc, did I hear this right were they meaning the leafs are only dressing 4 d?

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12-11-2010, 06:10 PM
  #292
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on cbc, did I hear this right were they meaning the leafs are only dressing 4 d?
How do you play a full game with only 4 defenseman?

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Old
12-11-2010, 06:13 PM
  #293
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