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The Real Reason to Fire Darryl Sutter

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Old
12-09-2010, 01:00 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
I also recall us getting the pick we drafted TJ Brodie with in that trade... Stuart was a warrior for us ad was the only constant positive against the Wings not named Kiprusoff... Stuart was the most sought after pending UFA that deadline and everyone was raving about how we won the trade since we never gave up a 1st for him
I was never a fan of that trade, it was common knowledge that Stuart was most likely going to leave the following the year, and we didn't have money to overpay him to make him stay. Way too way high of a price to pay for a rental. Sutter did do well getting assets for Primeau however, and then he flushed them down the toilet trading away Stralman.

If you break it down, we gave up Kobasew and Ference for 2 months of Stuart (and we were not a contender back then, I also think that makes a difference) and Primeau. Kobasew and Ference are not allstars, but we could of got way more than we did for those 2 guys in a package.

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12-09-2010, 03:18 AM
  #27
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Before I even read anyone's post besides the Original Posters, I just wanna say BRAVO!!

I just thoroughly read, and very slowly at that each and every word in the original post, and I gotta say this is one of the better posts I have EVER read on hfboards...

Don't think I am just blowing this out of proportion either....I joined HFboards back in 2002.....I've been around for awhile(despite my modest post count)

...That post was verrrrrrry thorough....and at times down right confusing with the trades and such.

I think, I, like many want Sutter fired.....for a myriad of reasons...

but your in-depth post about the drafting cannot be ignored....and your right...he should be fired on that basis alone.

I've always blamed Darryl for the drafting, however your right that he is somewhat guilty by association in that he was dumb enough to continue to employ atrocious scouts.

Now, I've gotta go read what everyone else is saying......but man oh man......great post.


Last edited by Qubax: 12-09-2010 at 03:27 AM.
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12-09-2010, 06:13 AM
  #28
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I've already posted my opinion on the situation of this team, but in regards to Sutter, expect a full report by the end of the month. Unfortunately, as things are, I have final exams from today until the 21st. I will attempt to analyze Darryl's management decisions.

That being said, I would just like to state the fact that every single trade is not only analyzed and approved by Darryl, but also - in all likelihood - has to be approved by his superiors, whether it be King or the owners themselves. Therefore, some deals which may not be as popular with the fan base - perhaps involving Iginla or Kiprusoff BEFORE THE PHANEUF TRADE - may have been rejected outright by Sutter's superiors. If that is the case, Sutter may not have as much power within the organization as is perceived on the outside.

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12-09-2010, 10:36 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
I was never a fan of that trade, it was common knowledge that Stuart was most likely going to leave the following the year, and we didn't have money to overpay him to make him stay. Way too way high of a price to pay for a rental. Sutter did do well getting assets for Primeau however, and then he flushed them down the toilet trading away Stralman.

If you break it down, we gave up Kobasew and Ference for 2 months of Stuart (and we were not a contender back then, I also think that makes a difference) and Primeau. Kobasew and Ference are not allstars, but we could of got way more than we did for those 2 guys in a package.
that is far from a high price to pay for a rental... look at the deadline every year, the most sought after guys cost an arm and a leg... and in that season it was Stuart... it was believed no one was going to land Stuart without giving up a 1st rounder... and we managed to do it without giving up a single pick... i fail to see how this was a bad trade in any way at all

Primeau & the 3rd for Kobasew was good value...
Stuart for Ference is lopsided in our favor pending UFA or not

and if you are giung to bring up 'flushing' Stralman you need to recogize drafting TJ Brodie with the 3rd in the original deal... and drafting Max Reinhart (who looks very promising at this point in time) in the deal moving Stralman... also you can't ignire the talk that Stralman was going to run to the KHL if he wasn't in the NHL

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12-09-2010, 10:50 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
that is far from a high price to pay for a rental... look at the deadline every year, the most sought after guys cost an arm and a leg... and in that season it was Stuart... it was believed no one was going to land Stuart without giving up a 1st rounder... and we managed to do it without giving up a single pick... i fail to see how this was a bad trade in any way at all

Primeau & the 3rd for Kobasew was good value...
Stuart for Ference is lopsided in our favor pending UFA or not

and if you are giung to bring up 'flushing' Stralman you need to recogize drafting TJ Brodie with the 3rd in the original deal... and drafting Max Reinhart (who looks very promising at this point in time) in the deal moving Stralman... also you can't ignire the talk that Stralman was going to run to the KHL if he wasn't in the NHL
It was a bad trade no matter which way you shake it. If Stuart would of been under a multi year contract then that would of been a huge difference and then it would of been a good trade and the asking price would of likely been the same.

Stuart > Ference
Kobasew > Primeau

Stuart never really looked that happy to be traded here. Sutter should of realized the likely hood of him resigning here was slim, hell 3/4's of fans in the city knew he was goner after the season, you would think Sutter would of known the same. I will give Stuart credit for going about his business and doing a good job on the ice when he was here. The reason I think it was a bad trade was Ference and Kobasew were 2 of our better younger players on the roster at the time, and we traded them away for a rental and an old 4th line grinder. Another typical Sutter move which hurt the Flames in the long run. If you think the trade was so good, ask yourself do you honestly think Sutter would repeat the trade knowing Stuart would walk away at seasons end? Not a chance he would. And the prospects that we now have that you mentioned could end up being very good, but by the time they are ready to make an impact on the Flames it will be 6-8 years from the time Ference and Kobasew got dealt.

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12-09-2010, 12:15 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
It was a bad trade no matter which way you shake it. If Stuart would of been under a multi year contract then that would of been a huge difference and then it would of been a good trade and the asking price would of likely been the same.

Stuart > Ference
Kobasew > Primeau

Stuart never really looked that happy to be traded here. Sutter should of realized the likely hood of him resigning here was slim, hell 3/4's of fans in the city knew he was goner after the season, you would think Sutter would of known the same. I will give Stuart credit for going about his business and doing a good job on the ice when he was here. The reason I think it was a bad trade was Ference and Kobasew were 2 of our better younger players on the roster at the time, and we traded them away for a rental and an old 4th line grinder. Another typical Sutter move which hurt the Flames in the long run. If you think the trade was so good, ask yourself do you honestly think Sutter would repeat the trade knowing Stuart would walk away at seasons end? Not a chance he would. And the prospects that we now have that you mentioned could end up being very good, but by the time they are ready to make an impact on the Flames it will be 6-8 years from the time Ference and Kobasew got dealt.
I played minor hockey with Stuart in Rocky Mountain House. We were friends during our teenage years. He never wanted to stay close to home as a kid, and though we have no contact now I can't imagine he's changed his mind. When he got traded here I was sad because I knew he'd never want to re-sign.

So a little insight on why things may have gone down the path they did.

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12-09-2010, 03:36 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
I was never a fan of that trade, it was common knowledge that Stuart was most likely going to leave the following the year, and we didn't have money to overpay him to make him stay. Way too way high of a price to pay for a rental. Sutter did do well getting assets for Primeau however, and then he flushed them down the toilet trading away Stralman.

If you break it down, we gave up Kobasew and Ference for 2 months of Stuart (and we were not a contender back then, I also think that makes a difference) and Primeau. Kobasew and Ference are not allstars, but we could of got way more than we did for those 2 guys in a package.
Thats wrong. It was/is pretty evident that Gio and Stralman were battling for the same spot on the team (offensive dman). Gio won the spot we kept him and moved Stralman. If we didn't move one of them we would have lost one of them for nothing. Its pretty obvious that we kept the right player. Sutter did not waste an asset. It was a good move to bring in competition and clear cap space in one trade. He allowed the players to dictate who would and wouldn't make the team and then turned the player who lost out into a draft pick. It was good asset management. We were not going to get rid of Pardy and keep both Gio and Stralman. The only guy who could have pushed Pardy off the roster last year was Pelech.

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12-09-2010, 09:36 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
It was a bad trade no matter which way you shake it. If Stuart would of been under a multi year contract then that would of been a huge difference and then it would of been a good trade and the asking price would of likely been the same.

Stuart > Ference
Kobasew > Primeau

Stuart never really looked that happy to be traded here. Sutter should of realized the likely hood of him resigning here was slim, hell 3/4's of fans in the city knew he was goner after the season, you would think Sutter would of known the same. I will give Stuart credit for going about his business and doing a good job on the ice when he was here. The reason I think it was a bad trade was Ference and Kobasew were 2 of our better younger players on the roster at the time, and we traded them away for a rental and an old 4th line grinder. Another typical Sutter move which hurt the Flames in the long run. If you think the trade was so good, ask yourself do you honestly think Sutter would repeat the trade knowing Stuart would walk away at seasons end? Not a chance he would. And the prospects that we now have that you mentioned could end up being very good, but by the time they are ready to make an impact on the Flames it will be 6-8 years from the time Ference and Kobasew got dealt.
Everyone and their mother knew Stuart was going to sign in California in the off-season... it was widely documented he was going to for family reasons... but he did waive a NTC to accept a trade to Calgary so don't give me that not happy to be here crap...

the bottom line is win or lose we took a chance to win in that trade... we went for it without giving up a 1st like so many other teams do at the deadline... you obviously have zero understanding that a deadline deal is made to try and win now and should be looked at in that sense... and at the time... Stuart/Primeau > Ference/Kobasew... Stuart was an impact player for us in the playoffs... neither Ference nor Kobasew would have been... that alone makes it not a bad trade... and adding the fact we landed TJ Brodie with the pick IMO makes that trade a win for us...

you seem to seriously overvalue Ference and Kobasew if you think this is a bad trade... we traded an average #5 defenseman and a borderline 2nd liner who sucked defensively for a highly sought after top 4 defenseman and a very good checker who finally gave us some size down thte middle... to call this trade bad shows a serious lack of understanding how deadline deals work...

but then again you trashing any move the Flames make shouldn't be surprising... you would find a way to say the Kiprusoff trade sucked if it meant you can bad mouth Sutter

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12-09-2010, 09:40 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
It was a bad trade no matter which way you shake it. If Stuart would of been under a multi year contract then that would of been a huge difference and then it would of been a good trade and the asking price would of likely been the same.

Stuart > Ference
Kobasew > Primeau

Stuart never really looked that happy to be traded here. Sutter should of realized the likely hood of him resigning here was slim, hell 3/4's of fans in the city knew he was goner after the season, you would think Sutter would of known the same. I will give Stuart credit for going about his business and doing a good job on the ice when he was here. The reason I think it was a bad trade was Ference and Kobasew were 2 of our better younger players on the roster at the time, and we traded them away for a rental and an old 4th line grinder. Another typical Sutter move which hurt the Flames in the long run. If you think the trade was so good, ask yourself do you honestly think Sutter would repeat the trade knowing Stuart would walk away at seasons end? Not a chance he would. And the prospects that we now have that you mentioned could end up being very good, but by the time they are ready to make an impact on the Flames it will be 6-8 years from the time Ference and Kobasew got dealt.
Stuart would never be traded at the deadline if he was not a pending UFA (rental)

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12-11-2010, 01:33 PM
  #35
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Thats wrong. It was/is pretty evident that Gio and Stralman were battling for the same spot on the team (offensive dman). Gio won the spot we kept him and moved Stralman. If we didn't move one of them we would have lost one of them for nothing. Its pretty obvious that we kept the right player. Sutter did not waste an asset. It was a good move to bring in competition and clear cap space in one trade. He allowed the players to dictate who would and wouldn't make the team and then turned the player who lost out into a draft pick. It was good asset management. We were not going to get rid of Pardy and keep both Gio and Stralman. The only guy who could have pushed Pardy off the roster last year was Pelech.
I will not dispute anything that you say, because yes it is obvious now that we did keep the right player if a decision had to of been made between the 2. I just think that Sutter should of found a way to keep Stralman on the roster. Last year we had Dion, Bouw, Regehr, Sarich and Gio. Then we had Pardy and Stralman competing for the 6 and 7th spots on defence. Stralman would of easily been the best choice to have for our 6th defenceman. Pardy did just sign a new contract so moving him would of made no sense, but he could of occupied the 7th spot. Sutter later in the season traded for Johnson so he obviously felt we needed more depth on our defence last year, so why not would of he kept Stralman around?

I do not think it had to of been one or the other between Stralman or Gio. Stralman is a right handed shot and Gio is left, and Stralman's current cap hit is 1.95 million which could easily fit under our current cap. As of today I would of rather of had Stralman over White, Babchuk, Staios and Pardy. And I think for his offensive upside alone I would rather have him over Sarich as well. We traded Stralman for a 3rd round which is a bit low, I think his value is that of a 2nd round pick. Basically I would of rather of kept Stralman in the organization rather than lose him for a 3rd round pick.

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12-11-2010, 03:19 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
I will not dispute anything that you say, because yes it is obvious now that we did keep the right player if a decision had to of been made between the 2. I just think that Sutter should of found a way to keep Stralman on the roster. Last year we had Dion, Bouw, Regehr, Sarich and Gio. Then we had Pardy and Stralman competing for the 6 and 7th spots on defence. Stralman would of easily been the best choice to have for our 6th defenceman. Pardy did just sign a new contract so moving him would of made no sense, but he could of occupied the 7th spot. Sutter later in the season traded for Johnson so he obviously felt we needed more depth on our defence last year, so why not would of he kept Stralman around?

I do not think it had to of been one or the other between Stralman or Gio. Stralman is a right handed shot and Gio is left, and Stralman's current cap hit is 1.95 million which could easily fit under our current cap. As of today I would of rather of had Stralman over White, Babchuk, Staios and Pardy. And I think for his offensive upside alone I would rather have him over Sarich as well. We traded Stralman for a 3rd round which is a bit low, I think his value is that of a 2nd round pick. Basically I would of rather of kept Stralman in the organization rather than lose him for a 3rd round pick.
Stralman would make White and Babchuk look like Regehr defensively... the guy has zero defensive awareness... as for last season you forget that Kronwall was in the equation too and won the #7 spot over Stralman... Johnson was only acquired after Sarich was hurt

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12-11-2010, 03:29 PM
  #37
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Everyone and their mother knew Stuart was going to sign in California in the off-season... it was widely documented he was going to for family reasons... but he did waive a NTC to accept a trade to Calgary so don't give me that not happy to be here crap...

the bottom line is win or lose we took a chance to win in that trade... we went for it without giving up a 1st like so many other teams do at the deadline... you obviously have zero understanding that a deadline deal is made to try and win now and should be looked at in that sense... and at the time... Stuart/Primeau > Ference/Kobasew... Stuart was an impact player for us in the playoffs... neither Ference nor Kobasew would have been... that alone makes it not a bad trade... and adding the fact we landed TJ Brodie with the pick IMO makes that trade a win for us...

you seem to seriously overvalue Ference and Kobasew if you think this is a bad trade... we traded an average #5 defenseman and a borderline 2nd liner who sucked defensively for a highly sought after top 4 defenseman and a very good checker who finally gave us some size down thte middle... to call this trade bad shows a serious lack of understanding how deadline deals work...

but then again you trashing any move the Flames make shouldn't be surprising... you would find a way to say the Kiprusoff trade sucked if it meant you can bad mouth Sutter
You can try and spin it any way you want it, but that was an awful trade. In fact I would go as far as to say that was pretty much Sutter's worst trade. You do not have to explain to me how deadline deals work and what their cost is, I am fully aware of that already, thanks. I could care less if the Flames did not move a 1st or not. Any time you move away young talent for a playoff rental, unless you are competing for the Stanley Cup that year it is an awful way to manage your organization (and clearly the Flames were not a contender that year). It has been multiple moves like that trade that has put the Calgary Flames in the position that they are in today. So keep trying to justify the trade to yourself.

The best managed teams in the NHL do not move away their young talent for short term fixes or playoff rentals. This is called being short sighted and really hurts your team in the long run. Sure we can debate the quality of players being moved in the deal, but the fact is, after Stuart left that trade left the Flames in a worse state. You are not going to convince me otherwise that was a good trade for Calgary, quite simply we traded away 2 good young roster players for Primeau. And if Primeau's size was so valuable, why did everyone in town want his a** traded out of Calgary so bad?

Not only should Sutter be fired for his drafting, but he should be fired for the way he has built this team. He has constructed a team that is the exact opposite of the way most successful teams in the NHL are built. He has built a team full of high priced contracts (Flames have the 5th highest payroll in the league and they are in last place in the West ), he has handed out a ton of NTC/NMC clauses to a lot of these players. This has resulted in the Flames having an "aging vetern core" and most of our youth that we did have was dealt away in order to aquire these types of players. Everyone who remotely follows the Flames knows what a terrible state this team is in. We have under achieving players signed long term to expensive contracts that are difficult to move and not much help is in the cupboard either. Sutter's drafting, player transactions and contract signing are all areas that have collectively contributed to the state that the team we cheer for is in. IMO, this guy cannot be fired fast enough.


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12-11-2010, 03:33 PM
  #38
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Stralman would make White and Babchuk look like Regehr defensively... the guy has zero defensive awareness... as for last season you forget that Kronwall was in the equation too and won the #7 spot over Stralman... Johnson was only acquired after Sarich was hurt
What are you smoking, are you actually arguing that Babchuk is good defensively? Stralman is no worse in his own zone than Babchuk is. And his offensive upside is better all around.

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12-12-2010, 01:39 AM
  #39
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Good analysis but nothing new though.

I have been saying all along that Todd Button should have been fired along with his brother....not sure why that idiot still have a job in the NHL...the Flames drafting has been pathetic....


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12-12-2010, 01:41 AM
  #40
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Not only should Sutter be fired for his drafting, but he should be fired for the way he has built this team. He has constructed a team that is the exact opposite of the way most successful teams in the NHL are built. He has built a team full of high priced contracts (Flames have the 5th highest payroll in the league and they are in last place in the West ), he has handed out a ton of NTC/NMC clauses to a lot of these players. This has resulted in the Flames having an "aging vetern core" and most of our youth that we did have was dealt away in order to aquire these types of players. Everyone who remotely follows the Flames know what a terrible state this team is in. We have under achieving players signed long term to expensive contracts that are difficult to move and not much help is in the cupboard either. Sutter's drafting, player transactions and contract signing are all areas that have collectively contributed to the state that the team we cheer for is in. IMO, this guy cannot be fired fast enough.
I am glad someone understands what is going on.

Sutter is no longer looking for the interest of this team....he is a desperate man looking for a quick fix to save his job....he is damaging the team beyond repair. The Flames without the doubt is in the worst shape of any team in the NHL...yeah that includes the Oilers and Leafs

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12-12-2010, 08:06 AM
  #41
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What are you smoking, are you actually arguing that Babchuk is good defensively? Stralman is no worse in his own zone than Babchuk is. And his offensive upside is better all around.
Stralman is arguably one of the worst defensive defensemen in the NHL... as for offense... you are aware Babchuk has higher career highs in both goals and points than Stralman right?... Babchuk is also 6" taller and 20 pounds heavier

also I never said Babchuk was good defensively... I said he was better than Stralman... which isn't hard because Stralman is to defense what Boogaard is to goal scoring

it doesn't matter how you slice it... Babchuk >>>>>>> Stralman... to think a borderline top 4 defenseman in Babchuk is not as good as a borderline top 6 defenseman is nothing short of ****in nuts


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12-12-2010, 02:10 PM
  #42
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"We're one player away from being a top team" That's why he has to go.

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12-12-2010, 03:32 PM
  #43
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"We're one player away from being a top team" That's why he has to go.
If that player is Crosby, sure.

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12-12-2010, 03:53 PM
  #44
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Stralman is arguably one of the worst defensive defensemen in the NHL... as for offense... you are aware Babchuk has higher career highs in both goals and points than Stralman right?... Babchuk is also 6" taller and 20 pounds heavier

also I never said Babchuk was good defensively... I said he was better than Stralman... which isn't hard because Stralman is to defense what Boogaard is to goal scoring

it doesn't matter how you slice it... Babchuk >>>>>>> Stralman... to think a borderline top 4 defenseman in Babchuk is not as good as a borderline top 6 defenseman is nothing short of ****in nuts
That's just embarrassing. You haven't seen Stralman play much have you?

That massive difference in career points you bring up isn't quite as enormous as you seem to think.

Babchuk 0.36 career point per game.
Stralman 0.35 career point per game.

Babchuk career high is 35 points in 72 games.
Stralman career high is 34 points in 73 games.

But you're right. The difference is almost infinite.

Babchuk is also two years older and a far worse skater.


Last edited by Pilkington: 12-12-2010 at 03:57 PM. Reason: Never you mind
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12-12-2010, 06:43 PM
  #45
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The Flames just aren't built to win in "The New NHL" at this moment. Too many grinding type players and not enough skill.

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12-13-2010, 12:35 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Iginlafan View Post
The Flames just aren't built to win in "The New NHL" at this moment. Too many grinding type players and not enough skill.
See I don't think this is true at all, Jackman, Kostopolous, Glencross and Moss are grinders. Tanguay, Stajan, Iginla, Bourque, Jokinen, Hagman, Backlund, Kotalik and Morrison are not grinders at all. The Flames problem is that they do not have enough talent on their team to compete with the other top teams in the leauge. Our top line is not even as good as San Jose's, Chicago's, Boston's and Philly's second lines. The problem is that we need better players on this team.

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12-13-2010, 11:58 AM
  #47
Stewie Griffin
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A good read, George Johnson really lays into Sutter here: http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/...105/story.html

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12-13-2010, 12:12 PM
  #48
Triple Deke
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The arguments about the Stralman trade are ridiculous. Maybe Sutter could have got a bit more for him, but it's better than putting him on waivers to get scooped up for nothing.

Although he has good offensive talent, he would not be an impact player for the Flames. He would most likely be in the same role Mikkelson is right now.

Currently, Stralman is in the doghouse in C-Bus.

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12-13-2010, 02:15 PM
  #49
Pilkington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple Deke View Post
The arguments about the Stralman trade are ridiculous. Maybe Sutter could have got a bit more for him, but it's better than putting him on waivers to get scooped up for nothing.

Although he has good offensive talent, he would not be an impact player for the Flames. He would most likely be in the same role Mikkelson is right now.

Currently, Stralman is in the doghouse in C-Bus.
Which is a far bigger role than Staffan Kronwall was ever going to have but Sutter opted to give Stralman away so he didn't have to put Kronwall on waivers.

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12-13-2010, 03:07 PM
  #50
Chessarmy
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I can't wait until the team turns it around and threads like these can go away.

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