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Giroux or Carter

View Poll Results: Who is the better player
Claude Giroux 56 62.92%
Jeff Carter 14 15.73%
Equal/Too close 19 21.35%
Voters: 89. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-13-2010, 12:22 PM
  #26
Montreal Shadow
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Whoa, I'm really surprised at the results, I was expecting them to be much closer. I haven't watched much of Carter recently(he was injured for most of last year's playoffs), but I recall him having a wicked wrist shot along with a strong body on the puck. What happened to him? Did he lose a step or did Giroux became better than Carter ever was? I know it's only a stat but the guy scored 46goals and I saw him as a perennial 35-40 goal scorer with the potential to reach 50 in a career year. It seems he is now a 25-30 goal, 70pts scorer. What's up with that? Did he regress or he just didn't improve from his beast season?

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12-13-2010, 12:25 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Montreal Shadow View Post
Whoa, I'm really surprised at the results, I was expecting them to be much closer. I haven't watched much of Carter recently(he was injured for most of last year's playoffs), but I recall him having a wicked wrist shot along with a strong body on the puck. What happened to him? Did he lose a step or did Giroux became better than Carter ever was? I know it's only a stat but the guy scored 46goals and I saw him as a perennial 35-40 goal scorer with the potential to reach 50 in a career year. It seems he is now a 25-30 goal, 70pts scorer. What's up with that? Did he regress or he just didn't improve from his beast season?
Nothing happened to Carter.

Last year all the Flyers had a rough season offensively.

His numbers have been alright this year, but he's playing out of position on the wing while not getting the touches he needs to be successful. Carter is one of those players who is going to see his numbers drop when he's playing with better linemates.

He's still a 35-40 goal scorer. Claiming any more than that right now would be pushing it, but in a favorable scenario, I could see him get 45 again no question.

The results of this poll have more to do with how good Giroux is as opposed to anything Carter might be lacking.

When you posted the poll, I knew exactly how you would react to it. Your reaction is completely incorrect.

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12-13-2010, 12:30 PM
  #28
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Carter is still miles ahead of Giroux at D. Giroux is learning and will probably become a force on D eventually but right now Carter is much better

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12-13-2010, 12:34 PM
  #29
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Giroux is the slightly better player. More dynamic.

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12-13-2010, 12:48 PM
  #30
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That is the beauty of this team. We have four centers that you could debate on. For me:
1a: Richards
1b: Giroux
1c: Briere
1d: Carter

Richards for me is one of the top 5 two way players in the game. Giroux is unbelievable for a third year player. He has really replaced Gagne well on the PK and improved us there. His vision/passing is top 10 in the NHL. Carter still has the shot to pop 50 goals. He has an amazing quick release and it is a bullet. Like most Flyer fans will likely tell you his accuracy is the problem. Many times, you will see Carter shoot high and wide or right into the goalies crest. If he gets Briere like accuracy, he would be a 50 goal guy, currently he is more of a 35ish.

Briere for me is the overlooked Center. When at center, his line is arguably the best on the team (or at least the most dangerous). His vision is great, his shot is pin-point, his cycle is very good, his down-low is awesome. I still think he has a point per game talent, but with the talent on this team and limited ice time he wont get there. He D is still suspect, but he is not the liability he once was.

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12-13-2010, 12:48 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Carter is still miles ahead of Giroux at D. Giroux is learning and will probably become a force on D eventually but right now Carter is much better
Maybe, but with his size and stick size (as I'm noting with Cartsiephan in the other thread), Giroux is giving away a lot defensively.

Even strength play:

CARTER: 12.99 TOI/60 1.19 G/60 3.28 GFON/60 2.09 GAON/60 1.19 +/- ON/60
GIROUX: 12.63 TOI/60 0.77 G/60 3.06 GFON/60 2.45 GAON/60 0.61 +/- ON/60

Across the board, Carter has been the better even strength player this year statistically.

Power Play:

CARTER: 3.13 TOI/60 1.24 G/60 4.95 GFON/60
GIROUX: 3.17 TOI/60 3.66 G/60 6.72 GFON/60

Across the board, Giroux has been the better power play player this year statistically.

Shorthanded:

CARTER: 1.00 TOI/GO 0.00 GAON/60
GIROUX: 2.56 TOI/60 6.04 GAON/60

Obviously Giroux plays the bigger role here, and has some shorties to his name... we're also a mediocre PK unit, and the Giroux/Richards pairing is significantly behind the Betts/Powe pairing in killing penalties. Might be time to look into whether or not we need to change up our rotation some.

Bottom line:

As of now, Carter remains a notably better even strength player than Giroux... he's both more effective offensively and defensively. Giroux covers significant ground in special teams... so it comes down to which flavor your prefer. Carter has also been developing into a force on the dot winning draws, which is something this team desperately needed the last couple of years.

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Old
12-13-2010, 12:53 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Carter is still miles ahead of Giroux at D. Giroux is learning and will probably become a force on D eventually but right now Carter is much better
Interesting - why? I think Carter is a great two-way center and his D is outstanding. It is the main reason I was happy with the 11 year deal. However, Giroux is outstanding on the PK (surely - you think Giroux is better shorthanded?) and he looks very good both ways. I would give a "slight" edge to Carter because he is better even strength defensively. Not sure I would say miles ahead.....but curious why you think that. Is it high praise for Carter or low praise for Giroux?

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12-13-2010, 01:04 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Interesting - why? I think Carter is a great two-way center and his D is outstanding. It is the main reason I was happy with the 11 year deal. However, Giroux is outstanding on the PK (surely - you think Giroux is better shorthanded?) and he looks very good both ways. I would give a "slight" edge to Carter because he is better even strength defensively. Not sure I would say miles ahead.....but curious why you think that. Is it high praise for Carter or low praise for Giroux?
Carter is a very good PKer when he is put out there, and playing the PK has nothing to do with two-way defense.

Giroux is 11th out of 12 forwards that have played 20+ games in GAON/60. The only player that has had more goals scored on him is Powe. However, I think Powe's problem is that he has played against the hardest QUALCOMP on the team, and he's not that good.

Giroux, on the other hand, hasn't played that hard a shift this year. His QUALCOMP is -.043, good for 7th on the team...

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Old
12-13-2010, 01:09 PM
  #34
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Draw. They each excel at things that the other does not.
Best way you can put it.

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Old
12-13-2010, 01:09 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Maybe, but with his size and stick size (as I'm noting with Cartsiephan in the other thread), Giroux is giving away a lot defensively.

Even strength play:

CARTER: 12.99 TOI/60 1.19 G/60 3.28 GFON/60 2.09 GAON/60 1.19 +/- ON/60
GIROUX: 12.63 TOI/60 0.77 G/60 3.06 GFON/60 2.45 GAON/60 0.61 +/- ON/60

Across the board, Carter has been the better even strength player this year statistically.

Power Play:

CARTER: 3.13 TOI/60 1.24 G/60 4.95 GFON/60
GIROUX: 3.17 TOI/60 3.66 G/60 6.72 GFON/60

Across the board, Giroux has been the better power play player this year statistically.

Shorthanded:

CARTER: 1.00 TOI/GO 0.00 GAON/60
GIROUX: 2.56 TOI/60 6.04 GAON/60

Obviously Giroux plays the bigger role here, and has some shorties to his name... we're also a mediocre PK unit, and the Giroux/Richards pairing is significantly behind the Betts/Powe pairing in killing penalties. Might be time to look into whether or not we need to change up our rotation some.

Bottom line:

As of now, Carter remains a notably better even strength player than Giroux... he's both more effective offensively and defensively. Giroux covers significant ground in special teams... so it comes down to which flavor your prefer. Carter has also been developing into a force on the dot winning draws, which is something this team desperately needed the last couple of years.

You could take this debate to the next level and say that one way or the other Carter or Giroux is going to be playing out of position. Given the choice at center I would want Giroux with the puck, but with Carters inability to be properly effective on the wing Giroux has been shofted back wide. It sucks because someone is going to be sacrificed. I see no reason why Carter should not be effective on the wing, but for whatever reason he does not fit there!!

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12-13-2010, 01:11 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
You could take this debate to the next level and say that one way or the other Carter or Giroux is going to be playing out of position. Given the choice at center I would want Giroux with the puck, but with Carters inability to be properly effective on the wing Giroux has been shofted back wide. It sucks because someone is going to be sacrificed. I see no reason why Carter should not be effective on the wing, but for whatever reason he does not fit there!!
Because he's a left-to-right player, so by putting him at RW, you're killing his offensive ability on the rush.

However, Giroux is perfectly effective as a wing... as noted when he's been put there this year.

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12-13-2010, 01:17 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Carter is a very good PKer when he is put out there, and playing the PK has nothing to do with two-way defense.

Giroux is 11th out of 12 forwards that have played 20+ games in GAON/60. The only player that has had more goals scored on him is Powe. However, I think Powe's problem is that he has played against the hardest QUALCOMP on the team, and he's not that good.

Giroux, on the other hand, hasn't played that hard a shift this year. His QUALCOMP is -.043, good for 7th on the team...
Honestly, I am going to have to watch a little harder on this one. I haven't "noticed" Giroux as bad even strength but I definitely have the orange colored glasses on when it comes to him. I agree on Carter. My post was more of a question, so I see your point and find that interesting. What do you see in Girouxs game that can account for it? Not back-checking? Weak stick? Poor coverage? I honestly haven't seen many holes....

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12-13-2010, 01:24 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Honestly, I am going to have to watch a little harder on this one. I haven't "noticed" Giroux as bad even strength but I definitely have the orange colored glasses on when it comes to him. I agree on Carter. My post was more of a question, so I see your point and find that interesting. What do you see in Girouxs game that can account for it? Not back-checking? Weak stick? Poor coverage? I honestly haven't seen many holes....
1) People don't like it, but he's giving away a lot of size and that matters as far as putting your body into people in the defensive zone. He also uses a really short stick, so he doesn't have a lot of reach defensively... which means he doesn't cover much space (compare this to someone like Carter that can cover a ton of space on reach alone).

2) He isn't a natural center. He didn't grow up playing the position, and he's now learning to play center in the hardest league in the world.

3) He doesn't have the best defensive technique, especially in the backcheck. For some reason he loves to do this whipping dive/reach action with his stick with regularity and try to poke the puck free... but it rarely works to jostle the puck free and the guy gets a few more steps on him in the process.

4) Most obviously, he makes some risky passes/plays that burn him.

He'll get better... since, unlike Briere, Giroux clearly competes defensively and that's 95% of playing defense. However, I don't think he'll ever be great defensively. That being said, Carter was *ing brutal defensively when he first got into the league, and he's now a pretty good defensive player. Carter doesn't have the instincts that Richards has (otherworldly), but he plays his position well and takes advantage of his speed and stick.

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12-13-2010, 01:33 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Because he's a left-to-right player, so by putting him at RW, you're killing his offensive ability on the rush.

However, Giroux is perfectly effective as a wing... as noted when he's been put there this year.
I have alread suggested that Carter should be on the LW where he can get the puck on his forehand at the center of the ice, problem is his HUGE stick on the backhand could be a weakness.

In comparison to Giroux or Carter at center, Giroux would be better suited at center, that should not even be part of the discussion. Fact is Giroux CAN and WILL play both, which makes him more versatile and valuable. I would still prefer to see Giroux carrying the puck up the ice over Carter.

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12-13-2010, 01:34 PM
  #40
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Giroux's hands should make him a great takeaway guy once he learns it, but he isnt there consistently yet

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12-13-2010, 01:43 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
I have alread suggested that Carter should be on the LW where he can get the puck on his forehand at the center of the ice, problem is his HUGE stick on the backhand could be a weakness.

In comparison to Giroux or Carter at center, Giroux would be better suited at center, that should not even be part of the discussion. Fact is Giroux CAN and WILL play both, which makes him more versatile and valuable. I would still prefer to see Giroux carrying the puck up the ice over Carter.
Why, Carter is as of now far and away more effective offensively at even strength... you can also carry the puck on the wing.

Carter is better at faceoffs... better defensively... he's the better "center."

It would be one thing if Giroux's production at even strength was offsetting his weaknesses, as Briere is doing right now... but despite having a "breakout year" he is 9th on this team in +/- ON/60 at even strength. Jody *ing Shelley has a higher +/- ON/60.

Now, these numbers will settle as the season goes on, so Giroux might improve there... but the decision to flip Giroux to wing the other day in favor of Carter wasn't a random thought, nor was it unjustified.

Giroux's relevant ranks per 60 minutes at even strength.

G/60 8th
P/60 1st
GFON/60 7th
GAON/60 11th
+/- ON/60 9th

Now, this isn't to suggest that Giroux hasn't had a great year, but those numbers aren't a compelling indication that Giroux is ripping it up as a center.

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12-13-2010, 01:50 PM
  #42
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seriously?

Giroux makes his linemates better, Carter makes his linemates worse

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12-13-2010, 01:50 PM
  #43
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seriously?

Giroux makes his linemates better, Carter makes his linemates worse
Why does the team score more often when Carter is on the ice, then?

The other team also scores less, which makes your linemates more effective as well.

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12-13-2010, 01:58 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
1) People don't like it, but he's giving away a lot of size and that matters as far as putting your body into people in the defensive zone. He also uses a really short stick, so he doesn't have a lot of reach defensively... which means he doesn't cover much space (compare this to someone like Carter that can cover a ton of space on reach alone).

2) He isn't a natural center. He didn't grow up playing the position, and he's now learning to play center in the hardest league in the world.

3) He doesn't have the best defensive technique, especially in the backcheck. For some reason he loves to do this whipping dive/reach action with his stick with regularity and try to poke the puck free... but it rarely works to jostle the puck free and the guy gets a few more steps on him in the process.

4) Most obviously, he makes some risky passes/plays that burn him.

He'll get better... since, unlike Briere, Giroux clearly competes defensively and that's 95% of playing defense. However, I don't think he'll ever be great defensively. That being said, Carter was *ing brutal defensively when he first got into the league, and he's now a pretty good defensive player. Carter doesn't have the instincts that Richards has (otherworldly), but he plays his position well and takes advantage of his speed and stick.

ON the first/second. I agree. Jordan Staal is a beast because of his stick alone. That thing is like having an extra player out there. He covers so much ground that is makes it very difficult to move the puck around the ice. Carter not so much but I see the point. Interesting.

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12-13-2010, 01:58 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Why does the team score more often when Carter is on the ice, then?

The other team also scores less, which makes your linemates more effective as well.
I would use the Zherdev defense...Giroux has been hamstrung by his linemates, Carter and Powe. We could go around and around on this all day.

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12-13-2010, 02:01 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
I would use the Zherdev defense...Giroux has been hamstrung by his linemates, Carter and Powe. We could go around and around on this all day.
So, Giroux is "hamstrung" by a linemate that has the team score more often when he is on the ice than Giroux, and plays solid defense on the other side of the puck?

We can go round and round if you're going to trot out asinine arguments like that.

Of course, the Zherdev argument is silly as well because he's played a lot of shifts with strong players and not been that effective.

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12-13-2010, 02:17 PM
  #47
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I gave it to Giroux, but they are two different styles of players. Carter is a shoot first, pass second type of player who, in my estimation, will score many more goals than Giroux. But I feel that Giroux has the all around game going for him. He can score and he can pass like few others in the game. I would guess that Carter winds up with better stats, but Giroux is the better player.

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12-13-2010, 02:25 PM
  #48
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One stat you should also add Jester:

Giroux's Linemates during ES:

Quote:
37.22% EV 17 CARTER,JEFF - 28 GIROUX,CLAUDE - 36 POWE,DARROLL

11.49% EV 17 CARTER,JEFF - 28 GIROUX,CLAUDE - 93 ZHERDEV,NIKOLAI

7.44% EV 28 GIROUX,CLAUDE - 21 VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES - 93 ZHERDEV,NIKOLAI

6.95% EV 28 GIROUX,CLAUDE - 36 POWE,DARROLL - 93 ZHERDEV,NIKOLAI
vs Carter's linemates:
Quote:
34.93% EV 17 CARTER,JEFF - 28 GIROUX,CLAUDE - 36 POWE,DARROLL

10.79% EV 17 CARTER,JEFF - 28 GIROUX,CLAUDE - 93 ZHERDEV,NIKOLAI

8.01% EV 17 CARTER,JEFF - 19 HARTNELL,SCOTT - 22 LEINO,VILLE

6.37% EV 13 CARCILLO,DANIEL - 17 CARTER,JEFF - 18 RICHARDS,MIKE
You have to consider not only where they play, but the percentage of other linemates they have played with in regards to how they play defensively.

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12-13-2010, 02:39 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
One stat you should also add Jester:

Giroux's Linemates during ES:



vs Carter's linemates:


You have to consider not only where they play, but the percentage of other linemates they have played with in regards to how they play defensively.
Wormhole if you want to go down there with linemates.

QUALTEAM

CARTER: -0.370
GIROUX: -0.283

QUALCOMP

CARTER: 0.023
GIROUX: -0.043

Carter wins there, too.

Now, folks are going to take this like I'm hating on Giroux, but I'm really not. He's been spectacular, but he isn't an even strength stud right now... which is the relevant discussion to whether him playing center over Carter is an inherently good idea. While he's done a good job of putting up points, his linemates haven't been as productive as they are away from him. Additionally, the defensive holes in his game are apparent against the rest of the team's play.

The reality is that while Giroux point production has been superb, many of his peripheral stats are not nearly as good as you would expect them to be.

Carter, on the other hand, has good peripherals at even strength.

5th on the team in GFON/60 (behind the HBL line and Nodl).

9th on the team in GAON/60.... but that is a product of...

3rd on the team in QUALCOMP (a notable stat because this team has layers here)

3rd on the team in G/60

5th on the team in P/60

6th on the team in +/- ON/60

Carter is having a strong year, and doing so playing the majority of the year out of position.

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12-13-2010, 03:16 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Because he's a left-to-right player, so by putting him at RW, you're killing his offensive ability on the rush.

However, Giroux is perfectly effective as a wing... as noted when he's been put there this year.
This probably has been covered in some other topics, but i've been slacking in following the boards lately. But I've always wondered this about Carter and his inability to fit into his time on the wing as to why he's been placed at RW. Since he is such a shoot first ask questions later type of player, why don't slate him in at LW instead and give him the opportunity to cut towards open ice and unleash that wrister on a better angle more consistently? He gets those opportunities at center, but I find most of the time he has to carry the puck in himself to do so at that position, limiting the creativeness of his line and forces himself into many obvious and predictably easy to defend shooting situations.

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