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Giroux or Carter

View Poll Results: Who is the better player
Claude Giroux 56 62.92%
Jeff Carter 14 15.73%
Equal/Too close 19 21.35%
Voters: 89. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-13-2010, 02:23 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
So, Giroux is "hamstrung" by a linemate that has the team score more often when he is on the ice than Giroux, and plays solid defense on the other side of the puck?

We can go round and round if you're going to trot out asinine arguments like that.

Of course, the Zherdev argument is silly as well because he's played a lot of shifts with strong players and not been that effective.
Giroux would benefit from being able to play center. Have him center a natural RW/LW and I can guarantee that Giroux would continue to outproduce Carter on a regular basis. Playing with Carter can be like playing with an anchor at times.

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12-13-2010, 02:30 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Giroux would benefit from being able to play center. Have him center a natural RW/LW and I can guarantee that Giroux would continue to outproduce Carter on a regular basis. Playing with Carter can be like playing with an anchor at times.
yes, the teams best even strength player the last few years is an "anchor."

Think harder.

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12-13-2010, 02:30 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Wormhole if you want to go down there with linemates.

QUALTEAM

CARTER: -0.370
GIROUX: -0.283

QUALCOMP

CARTER: 0.023
GIROUX: -0.043

Carter wins there, too.

Now, folks are going to take this like I'm hating on Giroux, but I'm really not. He's been spectacular, but he isn't an even strength stud right now... which is the relevant discussion to whether him playing center over Carter is an inherently good idea. While he's done a good job of putting up points, his linemates haven't been as productive as they are away from him. Additionally, the defensive holes in his game are apparent against the rest of the team's play.

The reality is that while Giroux point production has been superb, many of his peripheral stats are not nearly as good as you would expect them to be.

Carter, on the other hand, has good peripherals at even strength.

5th on the team in GFON/60 (behind the HBL line and Nodl).

9th on the team in GAON/60.... but that is a product of...

3rd on the team in QUALCOMP (a notable stat because this team has layers here)

3rd on the team in G/60

5th on the team in P/60

6th on the team in +/- ON/60

Carter is having a strong year, and doing so playing the majority of the year out of position.

How about we use this stat:

29GP; 26pts(12gls, 14asst, +9)
41GP; 19pts(12gls, 7assts, -11)

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Old
12-13-2010, 02:34 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
yes, the teams best even strength player the last few years is an "anchor."

Think harder.
Since the Hartnell-Carter-Lupul line since when has he been on a line where you see his line dominate shifts? When it comes to Zherdev he is a similar player, he will score you some goals in bunches, but lacks the consistent play over extended periods of time. It has become evident that Carter and Zherdev need to find a spot in the lineup where they can be used, but the problem is the complementing pieces do not seem to be there. So what is it, the complementing pieces or the individual?

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12-13-2010, 02:42 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Since the Hartnell-Carter-Lupul line since when has he been on a line where you see his line dominate shifts? When it comes to Zherdev he is a similar player, he will score you some goals in bunches, but lacks the consistent play over extended periods of time. It has become evident that Carter and Zherdev need to find a spot in the lineup where they can be used, but the problem is the complementing pieces do not seem to be there. So what is it, the complementing pieces or the individual?
This team is empirically better with Carter on the ice at even strength than Giroux, and you're calling Carter an "anchor."

You SERIOUSLY need to think smarter.

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12-13-2010, 02:44 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
How about we use this stat:

29GP; 26pts(12gls, 14asst, +9)
41GP; 19pts(12gls, 7assts, -11)
How about we don't... cuz it's meaningless to the argument at hand.

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12-13-2010, 02:46 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
This team is empirically better with Carter on the ice at even strength than Giroux, and you're calling Carter an "anchor."

You SERIOUSLY need to think smarter.
I disagree....and stop with the condescending bullcrap. It is firmly my opinion that Giroux is more valuable to the team today and going forward. You have a differing opinion that Carter is more valuable. We can both go around and say that this evidence or that evidence supports our argument but when the day is over and the opinions are stated it is still just a stated personal opinion one way or the other. In the meantime we can watch and observe whether there are valid points at both end of the spectrum.

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12-13-2010, 02:48 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
How about we don't... cuz it's meaningless to the argument at hand.

If you want to use valid stats. When the games get tougher and games get tighter Giroux shows up, Carter does not.

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12-13-2010, 02:56 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
I disagree....and stop with the condescending bullcrap. It is firmly my opinion that Giroux is more valuable to the team today and going forward. You have a differing opinion that Carter is more valuable. We can both go around and say that this evidence or that evidence supports our argument but when the day is over and the opinions are stated it is still just a stated personal opinion one way or the other. In the meantime we can watch and observe whether there are valid points at both end of the spectrum.
This isn't a matter of opinion.

FACT: The team is more likely to score at even strength with Carter on the ice than Giroux this year.

FACT: The team is less likely to be scored upon at even strength with Carter on the ice than Giroux this year.

You are calling him an "anchor" at even strength. That statement is dumb, and it falls in line with the incredibly biased and unobjective BS you've been stating about Carter ever since you joined this site.

Moreover, I didn't even state my opinion of whether Carter or Giroux is more valuable. Scroll up. Carter is a more valuable even strength player... among the most valuable on the team, and Giroux is more valuable on special teams. So, it depends on your flavor of choice.

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12-13-2010, 02:57 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
If you want to use valid stats. When the games get tougher and games get tighter Giroux shows up, Carter does not.
What do those stats have to say about how they've played this season or situationally?

That's right. Nothing. So they're meaningless.

If you want to say Giroux has been more productive in the postseason... he absolutely has. Of course, there you're going to run into the fact that players regress to mean over time, which we've already addressed in other threads.

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12-13-2010, 02:59 PM
  #61
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I want both on the team for a longtime

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12-13-2010, 03:14 PM
  #62
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I'd rather have Carter out on the ice against Malkin / Semin (teams 2nd best lines), than Giroux if it came down to the two. For me that solidifies my choice. Carter catches a lot of undeserved flak IMO on this board and Giroux well.... he "dazzles".

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12-13-2010, 03:17 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
What do those stats have to say about how they've played this season or situationally?

That's right. Nothing. So they're meaningless.

If you want to say Giroux has been more productive in the postseason... he absolutely has. Of course, there you're going to run into the fact that players regress to mean over time, which we've already addressed in other threads.
Giroux is in his 3rd season, Carter in his 6th. Carter has reached more of his mean than Giroux at this point.

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12-13-2010, 03:22 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
This isn't a matter of opinion.

FACT: The team is more likely to score at even strength with Carter on the ice than Giroux this year.

FACT: The team is less likely to be scored upon at even strength with Carter on the ice than Giroux this year.

You are calling him an "anchor" at even strength. That statement is dumb, and it falls in line with the incredibly biased and unobjective BS you've been stating about Carter ever since you joined this site.

Moreover, I didn't even state my opinion of whether Carter or Giroux is more valuable. Scroll up. Carter is a more valuable even strength player... among the most valuable on the team, and Giroux is more valuable on special teams. So, it depends on your flavor of choice.
My quote about being an anchor has to do with if he is not producing those "facts" are going to drop. As far as my opinion about Carter call it what you want, I think Carter is overrated by the fanbase and has reached his max potential.

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12-13-2010, 03:23 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Giroux is in his 3rd season, Carter in his 6th. Carter has reached more of his mean than Giroux at this point.
You realize this statement makes no sense whatsoever, and doesn't really address the point I was making... right?

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12-13-2010, 03:23 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Giroux is in his 3rd season, Carter in his 6th. Carter has reached more of his mean than Giroux at this point.
Jester is talking about playoff performances averaging out to a mean eventually, not careers

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12-13-2010, 03:23 PM
  #67
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Anyone else love the irony of the name of the registered user in the "I don't like Carter camp"?

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12-13-2010, 03:24 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
My quote about being an anchor has to do with if he is not producing those "facts" are going to drop. As far as my opinion about Carter call it what you want, I think Carter is overrated by the fanbase and has reached his max potential.


Obviously, if Carter stops producing -- and helping others on the ice produce -- then those "facts" will cease to be true.

If Giroux stops producing, a similar result will occur.

Then again, Carter has been this teams best even strength forward the last few years...

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12-13-2010, 03:25 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Anyone else love the irony of the name of the registered user in the "I don't like Carter camp"?
It has been discussed haha. I guess you weren't around when Carter was close to re-signing

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12-13-2010, 03:26 PM
  #70
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You realize this statement makes no sense whatsoever, and doesn't really address the point I was making... right?
The mean is the average, with Carter having played in more playoff games it would be expected that the mean of his numbers will stay pretty much where they are from 41 to 80 games unless he finds the postseason lightswitch?

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12-13-2010, 03:30 PM
  #71
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The mean is the average, with Carter having played in more playoff games it would be expected that the mean of his numbers will stay pretty much where they are from 41 to 80 games unless he finds the postseason lightswitch?
Jeff Carter has played 412 regular season games in the NHL, why on God's green Earth would you assume that his 41 playoff games were the "mean" that you'd expect him to produce at?

This is including the fact that in 6 of those games he was a rookie, 6 of those games he played the majority of the time with a busted shoulder, and 12 of those games he was playing on a broken and then two broken feet.

So more than half of Carter's playoff games have been played with him either as a rookie (when he wasn't the player he is today) or well below 100%. You really think that is an all that great representation of Carter's talent? This also ignores the fact that against the Pens a couple of years he was great even while hurt, just absolutely getting robbed by MAF.

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12-13-2010, 03:32 PM
  #72
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It has been discussed haha. I guess you weren't around when Carter was close to re-signing
Rough days. And the NTC does not kick in until next year.

I want Carter to succeed like most Philly fans do, the problem is I do not see it on a consistent basis. Nothing is more frustrating than seeing a guy who could be Stamkos but playing like Kovalev. This kid should not just be scoring, he should be dominating games and shifts, instead we get a good game to a game where you barely even know he was dressed.

Every game I watch I notice Giroux, the little things. Maybe at this point I have become so numb to Carters play that I overlook the little things and focus on the other negative things. A positive, the drop pass to JvR for the first goal. He opened up his body, slowed the play down, and made the right pass. If he can open up this part of his game he will find that his ability to score will increase because the defense will not just focus on one part of his game.

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12-13-2010, 03:34 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Jeff Carter has played 412 regular season games in the NHL, why on God's green Earth would you assume that his 41 playoff games were the "mean" that you'd expect him to produce at?

This is including the fact that in 6 of those games he was a rookie, 6 of those games he played the majority of the time with a busted shoulder, and 12 of those games he was playing on a broken and then two broken feet.

So more than half of Carter's playoff games have been played with him either as a rookie (when he wasn't the player he is today) or well below 100%. You really think that is an all that great representation of Carter's talent? This also ignores the fact that against the Pens a couple of years he was great even while hurt, just absolutely getting robbed by MAF.

Injuries did not stop Gagne or other players who suffered injuries from having success in the playoffs.

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12-13-2010, 03:35 PM
  #74
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Rough days. And the NTC does not kick in until next year.

I want Carter to succeed like most Philly fans do, the problem is I do not see it on a consistent basis. Nothing is more frustrating than seeing a guy who could be Stamkos but playing like Kovalev. This kid should not just be scoring, he should be dominating games and shifts, instead we get a good game to a game where you barely even know he was dressed.

Every game I watch I notice Giroux, the little things. Maybe at this point I have become so numb to Carters play that I overlook the little things and focus on the other negative things. A positive, the drop pass to JvR for the first goal. He opened up his body, slowed the play down, and made the right pass. If he can open up this part of his game he will find that his ability to score will increase because the defense will not just focus on one part of his game.
Ah, so the problem is that you have expectations that border on delusional? Carter is not as good as Stamkos. He never was and he never will be.

It's also bizarre that you'd compare a guy that has developed into a good two-way center to a one-way wing.

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12-13-2010, 03:37 PM
  #75
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Injuries did not stop Gagne or other players who suffered injuries from having success in the playoffs.
Gagne used to be SHREDDED for his playoff performances... just like you're doing to Carter here. Gagne was also less injured than Carter.


Gagne's first 41 playoff games: 12-6-18 -4

Carter: 12-7-19 -11

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