Obviously, if Carter stops producing -- and helping others on the ice produce -- then those "facts" will cease to be true.
If Giroux stops producing, a similar result will occur.
Then again, Carter has been this teams best even strength forward the last few years...
Giroux does not have to score goals to produce, he has the ability to spread the ice with his ability to pass the puck. He can create an advantage by his puckhandling ability that Carter does not have. Defense cannot attack him with the puck, they will stay a stick length away and use the stick to block the lanes. With Carter the defense attacks and closes the space because they do not have to worry as much about him beating anyone one on one or passing to the open space and creating a mismatch in that open area or a pass to the point for a shot.
Giroux does not have to score goals to produce, he has the ability to spread the ice with his ability to pass the puck. He can create an advantage by his puckhandling ability that Carter does not have. Defense cannot attack him with the puck, they will stay a stick length away and use the stick to block the lanes. With Carter the defense attacks and closes the space because they do not have to worry as much about him beating anyone one on one or passing to the open space and creating a mismatch in that open area or a pass to the point for a shot.
Seriously, what games do you watch? The defense backs the F off Carter all the time because once he gets going he can go around 'em with pure speed.
Moreover... the team scores more with Carter on the ice at even strength! The other team scores less! That's true even this year, when folks are writing hagiographies to Giroux (who has been great, but stop getting seduced by the dangling). Just because you look flashy, doesn't mean you're producing.
Seriously, what games do you watch? The defense backs the F off Carter all the time because once he gets going he can go around 'em with pure speed.
Moreover... the team scores more with Carter on the ice at even strength! The other team scores less! That's true even this year, when folks are writing hagiographies to Giroux (who has been great, but stop getting seduced by the dangling). Just because you look flashy, doesn't mean you're producing.
My answer is projecting to each players ultimate point... and I feel Gee has the best chance of being a true superstar.
I believe each can be a top tier elite player... and both are fine two-way players presently. Carter has had that great goal scoring year and IMO has more of them coming. I also believe he is a force on the ice on both sides of the puck and can score timely goals... he is not afraid to shoot anytime, from anywhere, and therefore has more high and wides and net misses than Giroux.
Giroux on the other hand has yet to have that one great goal scoring season, but has had a fine postseason when they went to the Finals... BUT, I see Gee as having that special quality that can lead to superstardom; I believe he has that Forsbergesque quality about him, less the size and mean streak... but he is a gritty player who is not afraid to get dirty and muck and take hits only to come right back. He also seems to have durability and not be injury prone (knock on wood)... he seems to be at the onset of a career that will see him dressed more often in a season than Foppa while getting just as dirty, albeit with less forceful checks. I see him as a potential mini-Foppa... not saying that he will come anywhere near the career that Forsberg had; also not saying that he can't.
So my vote is Giroux, but both will be top tier and I want both long term... Homer already inked Carter, and has Gee for few years, and has his rights after his second contract expires.
Jeff Carter's game is a little simpler than Giroux's, but it's nearly as effective. Then there is defense, where Carter has a clear edge. Plus you can't teach someone how to be big.........and Carter has been winning face offs like a champ lately too....
All in all they're both pretty damn good and I think a preference between the two probably has as much to do with which style of player a person prefers as which player they think is objectively better.
EDIT:
Wow. Giroux shouldn't be running away with this poll at all.
Jester, don't even bother with Cartsiephan. It really is like talking to a brick wall. Whenever you post facts backed up by statistics he's just gonna essentially cover his ears and say "nuh-uh".
It amazes me that people criticize Carter for his playoff performances. He's been injured or a rookie in over half his games played and he plays a type of game that's not likely to make him a PPG player anyways.
Guys like Steve Yzerman and Simon Gagne were viewed as playoff chokers early into their careers as well because people are impatient and short-sighted/narrow-minded.
It amazes me that people criticize Carter for his playoff performances. He's been injured or a rookie in over half his games played and he plays a type of game that's not likely to make him a PPG player anyways.
Guys like Steve Yzerman and Simon Gagne were viewed as playoff chokers early into their careers as well because people are impatient and short-sighted/narrow-minded.
I wasnt criticizing Carter's playoff performance...I was pointing out Giroux's success in the playoffs. If you claim Carter has been fine in the playoffs, then certainly Giroux's numbers should impress you.
Wow. Giroux shouldn't be running away with this poll at all.
Giroux is more affable to this fanbase for some reason.. I can't remember the last time I've seen a Flyers fan here or elsewhere badmouth his game. Carter on the other hand will be a whipping boy to many fans for the duration of his contract, perhaps longer.
Also, a cautionary word to Jester, I'd be a bit careful about using the advanced stats right now, I mean, going by those, Pronger and Richie are like the 2 worst defensive ES players on the team, so I think things are settling down a bit plus the ridiculous success that the Briere line had at ES in the first 15-20ish games is skewing some of the GF stuff (I don't think anyone really expects Danny to score 45 goals, 35 at ES).
That being said, all the basic points are correct. Carts is a MUCH better defensive C at this point also, that line has looked pretty good since Carter moved back to C, I'm not at all convinced that Giroux won't be a big force on the wing.
I wasnt criticizing Carter's playoff performance...I was pointing out Giroux's success in the playoffs. If you claim Carter has been fine in the playoffs, then certainly Giroux's numbers should impress you.
Wasn't criticizing you. Just more of a general statement.
I am always impressed with Giroux's hitting ability and willingness to much it up in the corners... and habitually dissapointed with Carter's.
Because on the rare occasion when Carter actually decides he wants to play with grit, he puts all 200 lbs into burying whichever poor ******* gets caught in the tracks. Giroux is a 180 pound nuisance.
Because on the rare occasion when Carter actually decides he wants to play with grit, he puts all 200 lbs into burying whichever poor ******* gets caught in the tracks. Giroux is a 180 pound nuisance.
You want 180 pounds of feathers, or a single 200 pound steel slug?
Is the slug just gonna sit there? How tightly can I pack the feathers?
On a serious note, Giroux's physicality serves a purpose beyond that of being a nuisance on a lot of occasions. No, he isn't muscling Chara off the puck anytime soon, but let's give him his due.
Also, a cautionary word to Jester, I'd be a bit careful about using the advanced stats right now, I mean, going by those, Pronger and Richie are like the 2 worst defensive ES players on the team, so I think things are settling down a bit plus the ridiculous success that the Briere line had at ES in the first 15-20ish games is skewing some of the GF stuff (I don't think anyone really expects Danny to score 45 goals, 35 at ES).
That being said, all the basic points are correct. Carts is a MUCH better defensive C at this point also, that line has looked pretty good since Carter moved back to C, I'm not at all convinced that Giroux won't be a big force on the wing.
Oh, it's early, but in addressing what they've done to this point... it's shocking that despite having this huge breakout year, Giroux advanced metrics aren't more impressive than they are (actually, they're not that impressive at all).
Richards' stats have been trending up for some time now (remember when everyone was complaining early in the year?).
However, you're also seeing the impact of good goaltending on folks' stats. Goaltending improves your entire team in one stroke.
