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Old
12-13-2010, 03:46 PM
  #51
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Canucks fan here, but don't shoot the messenger.

First the cheapshot - do you really need a scouting "staff" to make 1 pick?

No seriously, the real reason to fire Sutter now, rather than later is to prevent him from trying to "save" the season and/or his career. If the Flames are going to make a change at the GM position, they need to do it well before the trading deadline. They should NOT let a lame duck Sutter further handcuff the team in what is essentially a write off of a season.

The goal for whomever is running the show in February (Feaster is the obvious choice), should be to unload aging, over paid veterans and acquire draft picks. The organization should not allow a season as bad as this one looks, to go by without cashing in on the draft.

Unfortunately, the Leafs are in exactly the same position, so there are 2 Canadian teams with big ego GMs looking to wheel and deal to improve their draft position.

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12-13-2010, 04:03 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by LeftCoast View Post
Unfortunately, the Leafs are in exactly the same position, so there are 2 Canadian teams with big ego GMs looking to wheel and deal to improve their draft position.
The difference in Calgary being, the Flames have assets to trade away, the Leafs have Kaberle. Kessel and Versteeg are the only other players of value to trade and it is unlikely they are going anywhere.

The Flames have Iginla, Regehr, Kipper, Tanguay, Hagman, Moss, Jokinen (yes Jokinen, Chicago would probably take him), Sarich and Staios. All are capable of bringing back draft picks and or prospects. We are in much better scenerio to rebuild, Burke is ruining the Leafs.

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12-13-2010, 09:21 PM
  #53
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The difference in Calgary being, the Flames have assets to trade away, the Leafs have Kaberle. Kessel and Versteeg are the only other players of value to trade and it is unlikely they are going anywhere.

The Flames have Iginla, Regehr, Kipper, Tanguay, Hagman, Moss, Jokinen (yes Jokinen, Chicago would probably take him), Sarich and Staios. All are capable of bringing back draft picks and or prospects. We are in much better scenerio to rebuild, Burke is ruining the Leafs.
Oh... but the Leafs have that megalomaniac in their camp so they will prevail

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12-13-2010, 10:01 PM
  #54
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Oh... but the Leafs have that megalomaniac in their camp so they will prevail
And the Flames have .... Darryl Sutter.

Hence the thread.

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12-13-2010, 10:26 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
The difference in Calgary being, the Flames have assets to trade away, the Leafs have Kaberle. Kessel and Versteeg are the only other players of value to trade and it is unlikely they are going anywhere.

The Flames have Iginla, Regehr, Kipper, Tanguay, Hagman, Moss, Jokinen (yes Jokinen, Chicago would probably take him), Sarich and Staios. All are capable of bringing back draft picks and or prospects. We are in much better scenerio to rebuild, Burke is ruining the Leafs.
Moss, Jokinen, Sarich, Staios has almost no value...Tanguay has little

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Old
12-13-2010, 10:28 PM
  #56
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Tanguay has value as he has a cheap cap hit and is producing well... he is a bargain for a contender.

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12-13-2010, 11:19 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftCoast View Post
And the Flames have .... Darryl Sutter.

Hence the thread.
Whats your point, if things keep up the way they have been in Calgary he won't be around much longer. Hence the thread.

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Old
12-14-2010, 12:08 AM
  #58
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Whats your point, if things keep up the way they have been in Calgary he won't be around much longer. Hence the thread.
The the point is that you don't seem to get the irony of a Flames fan scorning the GM of the Leafs.

It's like 2 guys fall off a cliff and as they are falling the one starts laughing and calling the other guy an idiot for falling off the cliff.

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12-14-2010, 12:24 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by LeftCoast View Post
And the Flames have .... Darryl Sutter.

Hence the thread.
That, and one pick in the first 100 this year, and no pick in the first two rounds last year - in the worst two seasons since Sutter arrived.

The cupboard was bare when he arrived, and nobody has bought groceries since - just junk food and empty calories... Now like a junkie he's foregone any kind of proper sustenance and instead is looking to score his next hit.

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12-14-2010, 09:49 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by LeftCoast View Post
The the point is that you don't seem to get the irony of a Flames fan scorning the GM of the Leafs.

It's like 2 guys fall off a cliff and as they are falling the one starts laughing and calling the other guy an idiot for falling off the cliff.
The thing is, in case you haven't noticed, there isn't alot of people supporting D. Sutter around here these days. He is an idiot. My point is to your original comparasion that we have more tradeable assets than TO has and Sutter will not likely be around if there is a rebuild in Calgary.

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12-14-2010, 09:51 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
The thing is, in case you haven't noticed, there isn't alot of people supporting D. Sutter around here these days. He is an idiot. My point is to your original comparasion that we have more tradeable assets than TO has and Sutter will not likely be around if there is a rebuild in Calgary.
Came here to post this

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12-14-2010, 01:02 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas Hockey Fan View Post
Moss, Jokinen, Sarich, Staios has almost no value...Tanguay has little
Care to elaborate what you mean by little?

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Old
12-14-2010, 02:39 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
The thing is, in case you haven't noticed, there isn't alot of people supporting D. Sutter around here these days. He is an idiot. My point is to your original comparasion that we have more tradeable assets than TO has and Sutter will not likely be around if there is a rebuild in Calgary.
I'd say its arguable, but any advantage that Calgary has over Toronto is shades of grey. Both franchises lack depth, have gaping holes in core positions (like centre) and lack team speed. Both teams have traded away draft picks (without getting value in return) and both teams have made bad trades and even worse signings recently.

Calgary has a few more tradeable assets; I suppose Jokinen and/or Tanguay could be deadline rentals but Iginla has 2 more years at $7M per and Kipper has 3 years at an average of $5.8M which will cool the market a bit. To his credit, Sutter did move Phaneuf, but got very little value in return - if what you need are picks and prospects, why trade a key asset to a team who has neither?

However, in Toronto's favour, they are younger and Burke has already made most of the big roster dumps; Finger waived, Tucker bought out, Kaberle is UFA end of season, and if Kaberle waives his NTC he has some value at the deadline.

Burke also has time on his side. He is not likely to be fired in the next couple of years and the mess he inherited is not his own. The same (hopefully for Calgary's sake) can't be said of Sutter.

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Old
12-14-2010, 03:16 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by LeftCoast View Post
I'd say its arguable, but any advantage that Calgary has over Toronto is shades of grey. Both franchises lack depth, have gaping holes in core positions (like centre) and lack team speed. Both teams have traded away draft picks (without getting value in return) and both teams have made bad trades and even worse signings recently.

Calgary has a few more tradeable assets; I suppose Jokinen and/or Tanguay could be deadline rentals but Iginla has 2 more years at $7M per and Kipper has 3 years at an average of $5.8M which will cool the market a bit. To his credit, Sutter did move Phaneuf, but got very little value in return - if what you need are picks and prospects, why trade a key asset to a team who has neither?

However, in Toronto's favour, they are younger and Burke has already made most of the big roster dumps; Finger waived, Tucker bought out, Kaberle is UFA end of season, and if Kaberle waives his NTC he has some value at the deadline.

Burke also has time on his side. He is not likely to be fired in the next couple of years and the mess he inherited is not his own. The same (hopefully for Calgary's sake) can't be said of Sutter.
Players that hold good value in a flames firesale:

Iginla (Yeah no one could make room for this guy's salary for 2 years, it's only Iginla, nothing special)
Kipper (Is easily top 3 right now in the league, pretty easy to trade regardless of popular belief)
Bourque
Tanguay
Giordano
Regehr
Glencross
Hagman
Sarich

The flames have the pieces to sell in order to do a good rebuild at the current state. That is a huge difference from TO, not a grey area. You coming here and bashing our GM isn't saying anything, if the flames go into rebuild it won't be with Sutter around.

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12-14-2010, 04:03 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by The Gnome View Post
Players that hold good value in a flames firesale:

Iginla (Yeah no one could make room for this guy's salary for 2 years, it's only Iginla, nothing special)
Kipper (Is easily top 3 right now in the league, pretty easy to trade regardless of popular belief)
Bourque
Tanguay
Giordano
Regehr
Glencross
Hagman
Sarich

The flames have the pieces to sell in order to do a good rebuild at the current state. That is a huge difference from TO, not a grey area. You coming here and bashing our GM isn't saying anything, if the flames go into rebuild it won't be with Sutter around.
Hey - I'm not bashing. I was just responding to the poster who was gloating about the "megalomaniac" in Toronto. To this poster, don't kid yourself. Calgary is in just as bad shape as Toronto, but is 2 - 3 years behind in starting the rebuild. You can obviously find fault in the way he has gone about it, but Burke has cleaned house and started to build "his' team. Darryl Sutter, it seems, is too attached to the team he built and still thinks he has the core of a championship team that only needs to be tweaked a bit.

Personally, I think Sutter did a great job up until the lock out, or maybe when he kicked himself upstairs to focus on the GM role. In retrospect, the team would have been better off to leave him as coach and hire a GM who understood the complexities of the salary cap. Personally, I think your team probably already has the guy on board in Jay Feaster.

But what ever happens, the owners should not let Darryl Sutter make any trades, hire anyone, fire anyone or do anything that could limit the next GM at this point. Once you know he's the wrong man at this point in time (and from reading your board, the fans have at least figured this out) you have to get rid of him quickly. It is imperative to not let him try to save his job at the expense of the long term success of the team.

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Old
12-14-2010, 04:13 PM
  #66
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In our eyes Sutter was fine until the Jokinen trade. I don't even know what to call Toronto; according to Burke they were looking to make the playoffs now. They have a decent foundation. They really shouldn't have stopped the rebuild. Schenn is great, but Kessel desperately needs that center. Right now, they do not have a clear franchise player.

How our rebuild process goes depends on the next GM; Sutter's got to go. We have players that can fetch pretty good prospects and picks. Toronto's Sundin left to FA, Kaberle is likely to do the same, Tucker was bought out and McCabe fetched a small return. They let their best assets go with getting barely anything in return.

I agree with you in that he should have remained the headcoach. But going back to the Leafs, didn't Quinn get fired after leaving the GM duties to Ferguson? Probably got scared


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Old
12-14-2010, 04:20 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by LeftCoast View Post
Hey - I'm not bashing. I was just responding to the poster who was gloating about the "megalomaniac" in Toronto. To this poster, don't kid yourself. Calgary is in just as bad shape as Toronto, but is 2 - 3 years behind in starting the rebuild. You can obviously find fault in the way he has gone about it, but Burke has cleaned house and started to build "his' team. Darryl Sutter, it seems, is too attached to the team he built and still thinks he has the core of a championship team that only needs to be tweaked a bit.

Personally, I think Sutter did a great job up until the lock out, or maybe when he kicked himself upstairs to focus on the GM role. In retrospect, the team would have been better off to leave him as coach and hire a GM who understood the complexities of the salary cap. Personally, I think your team probably already has the guy on board in Jay Feaster.

But what ever happens, the owners should not let Darryl Sutter make any trades, hire anyone, fire anyone or do anything that could limit the next GM at this point. Once you know he's the wrong man at this point in time (and from reading your board, the fans have at least figured this out) you have to get rid of him quickly. It is imperative to not let him try to save his job at the expense of the long term success of the team.
Your still missing the point.

Hypothetically if Calgary got a new GM and did a firesale then we have the assets to get good returns. In other words we are in a good position to do a rebuild, UNLIKE Toronto. No one is arguing that Sutter should keep his job, and no one on these boards can control the future of the flames organization.

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12-14-2010, 04:30 PM
  #68
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In our eyes Sutter was fine until the Jokinen trade. I don't even know what to call Toronto; according to Burke they were looking to make the playoffs now. They have a decent foundation. They really shouldn't have stopped the rebuild. Schenn is great, but Kessel desperately needs that center.

How our rebuild process goes depends on the next GM; Sutter's got to go.

I agree with you in that he should have remained the headcoach. But going back to the Leafs, didn't Quinn get fired after leaving the GM duties to Ferguson? Probably got scared
Ha, yeah, but poor old Quinn also got fired in Vancouver after hiring Rick Ley as coach so he could focus on GM duties.

I'm not a Leafs fan, but the problems in TO are many. The fans and media seem to feel they are entitled to a winning team without ever having to go through a rebuild. The owners don't care about winning as long as the fans keep coming and the TV audience tunes in. This puts pressure on the GM to do quick fixes.

Calgary fans should take this to heart; the route to the top is usually via the bottom.

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12-14-2010, 04:55 PM
  #69
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Your still missing the point.

Hypothetically if Calgary got a new GM and did a firesale then we have the assets to get good returns. In other words we are in a good position to do a rebuild, UNLIKE Toronto. No one is arguing that Sutter should keep his job, and no one on these boards can control the future of the flames organization.
No, I get the point. But you seem, like most fans, to over value your own players.

Iginla, Regehr and Kipper are still top tier players, but it is not an easy thing to trade players over 30 with $4M, $6M and $7M contracts, particularly since all three have no move clauses. There are only a handful of teams who have the cap space (or financial strength) and are in the right point in their competitive cycle to take on these types of contracts.

The best time to pick up draft picks and prospects is often at the trade deadline. But the teams who are likely to be in the playoff hunt at the deadline are either at or near the cap (Pittsburgh, Washington, Boston, Phily, NYR in the East, Detroit, Vancouver, San Jose, Chicago in the West) or have other financial restrictions (Atlanta, Tampa, Dallas, Nashville, Phoenix). So realistically, if you are looking for a deadline deal, it comes down to Colorado, Anaheim, LA or Montreal (since Markov is LTIR). None of them need goal tending, so take Kipper off the list. Would Calgary really want to trade Iginla or Regehr to Colorado?

The next best time to trade for picks is on the draft floor. But if recent trends are telling, the value of draft picks has gone up significantly recently, and anyone who is willing to move them is going to get a lot of interest from Toronto and Edmonton.

I'm not saying these guys can't be parleyed into younger players and picks, but it is not going to be easy.

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12-14-2010, 07:46 PM
  #70
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Back to the thread at hand (I don't care about TO at all), Sutter should be fired for being delusional or insane.

I actually do not blame him for originally trading for Olli, most fans in Calgary wanted Sutter to trade for him while he was still in Florida. The problem is that he brought him back. When he did this, the fans in Calgary were up in arms. His response to this was that they the people that mattered actually supported the signing, which was essentially slapping the fans in the face.

Sutter traded Dion Phaneuf. Fine he was a locker room problem, I didn't have a problem with Phaneuf being moved, but why in hell did he trade him for role players? Dion could of been used to possibly bring in Lecavalier, Spezza, or B. Richards. Or...we could of aquired a first round pick ++ in last years draft being that he gave up a first to aquire Jokinen.

He resigned Alex Tanguay, and while this has been a good signing so far, he brought back Alex based on the premise assuming that he could return to his career totals. Also, he thought that in bringing back Tanguay it would create a top line that would be among the best in the NHL. While Sutter has never gone on the record saying this, hearing preseason interviews with Iginla and Jokinen suggest to me that this was Sutter's goal for this season. We needed to add some offence and this was Sutter's solution. It was another gamble Sutter took, and we all know how the experiment has worked out so far.

Sutter has brought in alot of players from losing franchises. While he has tried to get good locker room guys, he has failed to aquire players from winning backgrounds that know how to win. Aquiring multiple players from losing franchises often adds and creates to a fragile environment because these players do not know how to win. Atlanta aquired alot of players from Chicago and they have a had quite a fair bit of success this season. We do have Tangs and Sarich, but that has not been enough to add to the leadership of this group.

Lastly, which kind of sums up everything, the team that Sutter has assembled for this season was based on the fact that the players in the lineup would all have bounce back years. You cannot "hope" and "bank" your season on the logic that aging players will all have bounce back or near career total years and expect to be a successful team. What he had in mind when reaquiring these players is not exactly how things are shaping up, hence our position in the standings.

The bottom line is that Sutter is a dinosaur in his philosophy and has built a team that may of had success in the pre-lockout era, but the reality is it is the exact opposite of how successful teams in todays NHL are built. It is this, along with his poor drafting and lack of prospects in our system that have the Flames in a terrible state and needing to rebuild. It is for these reasons that D. Sutter is delusional because he and the owners which he also has them believing his crap that think that this team can be a successful is why he needs to be fired.

Its too bad it had come to such a likely negative end after how he turned around the franchise, but he is trying to feed the fans and media lies that this group is capable of winning. I think most people are realizing that this is not the case, change needs to be made and the sooner the better.


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Old
12-14-2010, 08:04 PM
  #71
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My early suggestion for Ken King's New Years Resolution..... Fire Darryl Sutter!

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12-14-2010, 08:23 PM
  #72
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Care to elaborate what you mean by little?
yes of course....he may fetch a 3rd at the deadline....unless you consider that's big for rebuild.

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Old
12-15-2010, 10:30 AM
  #73
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No, I get the point. But you seem, like most fans, to over value your own players.

Iginla, Regehr and Kipper are still top tier players, but it is not an easy thing to trade players over 30 with $4M, $6M and $7M contracts, particularly since all three have no move clauses. There are only a handful of teams who have the cap space (or financial strength) and are in the right point in their competitive cycle to take on these types of contracts.

The best time to pick up draft picks and prospects is often at the trade deadline. But the teams who are likely to be in the playoff hunt at the deadline are either at or near the cap (Pittsburgh, Washington, Boston, Phily, NYR in the East, Detroit, Vancouver, San Jose, Chicago in the West) or have other financial restrictions (Atlanta, Tampa, Dallas, Nashville, Phoenix). So realistically, if you are looking for a deadline deal, it comes down to Colorado, Anaheim, LA or Montreal (since Markov is LTIR). None of them need goal tending, so take Kipper off the list. Would Calgary really want to trade Iginla or Regehr to Colorado?

The next best time to trade for picks is on the draft floor. But if recent trends are telling, the value of draft picks has gone up significantly recently, and anyone who is willing to move them is going to get a lot of interest from Toronto and Edmonton.

I'm not saying these guys can't be parleyed into younger players and picks, but it is not going to be easy.
I never said it would be easy and there are always ways to send salary back. Pretty simple logic, and it has been done so many times in the past with comparable examples. I can't imagine any teams in the league that would want to change their team dynamic to acquire kipper, iginla, or regehr. I guess when players hit 30 they really do lose all of their value.

Kipper - plays above his contract
Regehr - plays to his contract
Iginla - is about 1 -1.5 mil below his contract. But give me a break...He's Jarome ****ing Iginla. Only a 14 year old who has a man crush on Taylor Hall would call him washed up.

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