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HNIC - Montreal V.S. Toronto || WE WIN !

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Old
12-13-2010, 04:22 AM
  #201
Aplayaz2000
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i hope gust isnt raging about the fairness

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Old
12-13-2010, 08:22 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Sergei Berezin View Post
I don't think we should discount the fact that Giguere provides a veteran presence on the ice and is a very local leader. He directs a lot of traffic, can really tell how the games flowing, he knows when to cover the puck, when to hand it off, etc.

These are all attributes of a veteran goalie and that's why I think the team plays better in front of Giguere and ultimately the reason he has more wins than Gustavsson.

While I strongly believe Gustavsson is better, he just doesn't have the little things that Giguere has picked up over his tenure... they're invaluable traits and they should not be discounted when discussing the goaltending situation.
The only thing i disagree with here is that Giguere is TERRIBLE at handling the puck. More often than not he sends it around the boards away from a leafs player who was in the clear straight to the other team. He often plays a puck that the defenseman would have been easily able to get to before anybody else. Its frustrating.

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12-13-2010, 08:54 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
wonder how you will feel when we let him walk away next season.
Nice way to not address the facts in my post. Is this HF's version of, "So? You're mama's fat!"

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12-13-2010, 09:09 AM
  #204
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Auld, my mistake.


My point concerning their backup was that people here are offended that Healey said "The habs know they can beat the leafs with their backup." The way he put it wasnt particularly clever, but its true. Good teams use poor teams like the leafs to rest their starting goalies. And for the past while the leafs have usually responded by boosting the save percentage of every backup in the league but i digress....Healy isnt a good commentator by any means but people are acting like he did nothing but hate on the leafs. He had positive things to say about the leafs manytimes, and overall was quite negative about the habs as well (neither team played a particularly great game).
I disagree completely.

He slagged the Leafs all night long and only gave credit based on the Habs not playing well not on what the Leafs were doing.

Maybe he thinks he should have got the Snow treatment in Toronto and been given the GM's job. Perhaps he could have done better considering the results, but his attitude shows he wouldn't be able to make decisions without some sort of personal slant being included. He's petty.

Kelly Hrudey is what Healey only dreams he could be like.

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Old
12-13-2010, 10:07 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by RECsGuy View Post
Giguere's GAA is better, and gets less goal-support yet has more wins. Whoops!
It's funny because part way through the game I thought "I bet RECsGuy will be on here talking about what a good job Giguere did" despite the fact he only faced one semi-difficult shot all night (even that only had partial torque on it) and he let it in.

At least you're consistent!

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Old
12-13-2010, 10:46 AM
  #206
eyeball11
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Originally Posted by RECsGuy View Post
Goal support...

'10-'11

Giguere

2.20 GFA (34 GF/15.4667 GMS [928 MINS])

Gustavsson

2.26 GFA (31 GF/13.7333 GMS [824 MINS])


Since 1/31/10...

Giguere

2.21 GFA (68 GF/30.71667 GMS [1,843 MINS])

Gustavsson

2.48 GFA (62 GF/ 25.05 GMS [1,503 MINS])

---

Key

SPT(S): Standings Point(s)
GFA: Goals For Average
SHF%: Shooting Percentage For

---

Feeling stupid?
I only verified one of your stats and since it's wrong I won't bother checking the rest, I'll leave that to you.

In games Gustavsson has played in this year, the Leafs have scored 33 goals. Of these 33 goals they scored, not all are with him playing. For example, on November 16, he came in at 6:51 of the third and none of the 5 goals scored by Toronto counted towards him so 33 - 5 = 28. Then you have to remove the two shootout win goals (these don't count in goalie time nor are these goals recorded as goals for on any individual stat in NHL.com) so 28 - 2 = 26.

That changes your math to 1.89 GFA (26 GF/13.7333 GMS [824 MINS]).

As I said, I didn't bother to check if you had any other errors but this would suggest you exercise caution in pulling the "Feeling stupid?" card.

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Old
12-13-2010, 11:51 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
In games Gustavsson has played in this year, the Leafs have scored 33 goals. Of these 33 goals they scored, not all are with him playing. For example, on November 16, he came in at 6:51 of the third and none of the 5 goals scored by Toronto counted towards him so 33 - 5 = 28. Then you have to remove the two shootout win goals (these don't count in goalie time nor are these goals recorded as goals for on any individual stat in NHL.com) so 28 - 2 = 26.

That changes your math to 1.89 GFA (26 GF/13.7333 GMS [824 MINS]).
During Gutso's 13 minutes in net vs. Nashville, Toronto scored 3 goals. Heck, since Gutso was in net when the GWG was scored, I think he deserved the win (and will alter my stats to refelct such).

As for the shootout issue, if a goalie can earn a victory, then he also accepts the winning "goal" as a goal-for. For this same reason, I believe a goalie who stops all 32 shots in regulation/OT, but loses in the shootout should not receive credit for a shutout.


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Old
12-13-2010, 12:00 PM
  #208
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just wanted to say guys. thanks for all the congratulations in the GDT. totally appreciated.

saw highlights from teh game. great win by the boys!

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Old
12-13-2010, 12:25 PM
  #209
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Not one Frenchie has come to my desk today.....wish we played the Habs every Saturday.

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Old
12-13-2010, 01:52 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by RECsGuy View Post
During Gutso's 13 minutes in net vs. Nashville, Toronto scored 3 goals. Heck, since Gutso was in net when the GWG was scored, I think he deserved the win (and will alter my stats to refelct such).

As for the shootout issue, if a goalie can earn a victory, then he also accepts the winning "goal" as a goal-for. For this same reason, I believe a goalie who stops all 32 shots in regulation/OT, but loses in the shootout should not receive credit for a shutout.
Who the **** is Gutso? One of the Little Rascals maybe?

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Old
12-13-2010, 01:54 PM
  #211
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Not one Frenchie has come to my desk today.....wish we played the Habs every Saturday.
Indeed. The silence from our pro-Habs department is deafening here as well. Love it - I can finally get some good web-surfing done without interruption.

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Old
12-13-2010, 03:21 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by RECsGuy View Post
During Gutso's 13 minutes in net vs. Nashville, Toronto scored 3 goals. Heck, since Gutso was in net when the GWG was scored, I think he deserved the win (and will alter my stats to refelct such).

As for the shootout issue, if a goalie can earn a victory, then he also accepts the winning "goal" as a goal-for. For this same reason, I believe a goalie who stops all 32 shots in regulation/OT, but loses in the shootout should not receive credit for a shutout.
You've got an answer for this, eyeball11?

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Old
12-13-2010, 03:56 PM
  #213
eyeball11
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Originally Posted by RECsGuy View Post
During Gutso's 13 minutes in net vs. Nashville, Toronto scored 3 goals. Heck, since Gutso was in net when the GWG was scored, I think he deserved the win (and will alter my stats to refelct such).

As for the shootout issue, if a goalie can earn a victory, then he also accepts the winning "goal" as a goal-for. For this same reason, I believe a goalie who stops all 32 shots in regulation/OT, but loses in the shootout should not receive credit for a shutout.
G Per Time Str Team Goal Scorer Assist Assist
1 1 8:13 EV NSH 71 J.DUMONT(3) 11 D.LEGWAND(5) 20 R.SUTER(4)
2 1 11:33 EV NSH 22 J.TOOTOO(2) 11 D.LEGWAND(6) 29 J.WARD(3)
3 1 11:43 EV NSH 10 M.ERAT(1) unassisted
4 1 19:30 EV TOR 2 L.SCHENN(1) 81 P.KESSEL(3)
5 2 4:41 SH NSH 9 M.GOC(3) unassisted
6 2 6:22 PP TOR 32 K.VERSTEEG(3) 81 P.KESSEL(4) 43 N.KADRI(1)
7 2 7:21 PP TOR 32 K.VERSTEEG(4) 16 C.MACARTHUR(7) 15 T.KABERLE(8)
8 2 14:21 PP TOR 84 M.GRABOVSKI(4) 16 C.MACARTHUR(8) 15 T.KABERLE(9)
9 2 16:44 PP TOR 41 N.KULEMIN(5) 16 C.MACARTHUR(9) 84 M.GRABOVSKI(9)

As you can see, according to NHL.com's scoresheet, there were ZERO goals scored in the third period. Also according to NHL.com's game recap:

"Giguere pulled himself from the game shortly after sliding across his crease to deny Cal O'Reilly on a golden opportunity in the final period. He has a history of groin and hip problems, and said he didn't want to be selfish and play at less than 100 per cent.

In came backup Jonas Gustavsson, who made six saves in a little over 13 minutes of work."


To your other point, no, goals in the shootout should not count as goals for and they don't. How can you propose a formula that includes a function of time and then add in a stat that does not have an associated time? Also, if ten shooters score, does he get 10 goal support? You're talking nonsense here.

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Old
12-13-2010, 04:06 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by RECsGuy View Post
During Gutso's 13 minutes in net vs. Nashville, Toronto scored 3 goals. Heck, since Gutso was in net when the GWG was scored, I think he deserved the win (and will alter my stats to refelct such).

As for the shootout issue, if a goalie can earn a victory, then he also accepts the winning "goal" as a goal-for. For this same reason, I believe a goalie who stops all 32 shots in regulation/OT, but loses in the shootout should not receive credit for a shutout.
Ok, during Gusto's game subbing for Giguere, he played 13 minutes of the 3rd quarter in which Toronto scored 0 goals. Since the GWG scored during Giguere's time on the ice, Giguere is credited for the win even though Gusto made some nice saves at all. But nice saves aren't suppose to be on stats, so we will leave it at that.

2nd, I had some time and I redid the stats according yours and counted SO win as 1GF for the winning goalie as it counts towards the box score. Even if a team were to score 3 goals for in a shootout, it still only counts as ONE goal in the final box score and that is how it stands. Therefore, coming to that conclusion and since Gusto was not on the ice for any of the goals Toronto scored in the Nashville game, it came to this

Giguere (37 GF/15.4667 GMS [928 MINS]) 2.39

Gusto (28 GF/13.7333 GMS [824 MINS]) 2.03

Which still shows that Giguere gets more help from the team than Gustavsson.

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Old
12-13-2010, 04:13 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by RECsGuy View Post
Nice way to not address the facts in my post. Is this HF's version of, "So? You're mama's fat!"
In the 15 starts this season:
Gustavsson's GFA: 1.86

In the 16 starts this season
Giguere's GFA: 2.31

aren't stats just wonderful?

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Old
12-13-2010, 04:16 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by KingLiLi88 View Post
Ok, during Gusto's game subbing for Giguere, he played 13 minutes of the 3rd quarter in which Toronto scored 0 goals. Since the GWG scored during Giguere's time on the ice, Giguere is credited for the win even though Gusto made some nice saves at all. But nice saves aren't suppose to be on stats, so we will leave it at that.

2nd, I had some time and I redid the stats according yours and counted SO win as 1GF for the winning goalie as it counts towards the box score. Even if a team were to score 3 goals for in a shootout, it still only counts as ONE goal in the final box score and that is how it stands. Therefore, coming to that conclusion and since Gusto was not on the ice for any of the goals Toronto scored in the Nashville game, it came to this

Giguere (37 GF/15.4667 GMS [928 MINS]) 2.39

Gusto (28 GF/13.7333 GMS [824 MINS]) 2.03

Which still shows that Giguere gets more help from the team than Gustavsson.
yours is more accurate than mine, as you have more precise timing. good job pal and thank you it seems like im not the only one lol

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Old
12-13-2010, 04:26 PM
  #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcanologist View Post
Who the **** is Gutso? One of the Little Rascals maybe?
It kinda reminds me of Greg Millen. He says "Gufstason".

He's only been here for 2 years, retard.

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Old
12-13-2010, 04:41 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by spidergoalie View Post
I honestly feel one of Giguere's biggest assets, and the one least noticed by fans, is how many saves he doesn't have to make because of rebound control ..almost everything is absorbed or directed safely to the corners. This is part of why so few spectacular saves, and why you will so often hear that he didn't have to make any big saves.

This really IMHO is a big part of why most people here much prefer Gus.
Gus looks like what most people think of as great goaltending.
People don't think a guy who butterflys on every shot and either takes the shot in his gut, or directs it to the corners is great. They think a guy who does the splits, diving stick saves, or flashes the leather is the great goalie.
Jiggy doesn't really do anything to get people excited, except when his positional percentage blocking style fails the goals look weak....then people here get excited!

Movement I think is another big reason for the Gus preference. He moves faster and more naturally. Giguere is so focused on keeping his torso/arms a solid block, looks slower and almost robotic. This is why we hear people saying he looks old.

So we have a more fluid, more exciting goalie whose poor rebound control and over-movement forces him to look like he is making a lot of desperation saves, and the poor guys team keeps failing him, and the other perception is an old slow goalie who never has to make big saves, and virtually every goal on him is called "weak".
The problem is perceptions can be wrong, and here the old slow guy actually has a .500 record with a team currently third from the bottom in the over-all standings.


All that said I think Gus is improving at a good pace, and inevitably will be the #1 at some point. As I've said before if he can learn some of Giguere's technique, and then rely on his reflexes only when he has to, he should be a great goalie in the future!
So I don't post the above to slag on Gus, only to point out some of why I think people are more behind him than Jiggy despite Jiggy's better record (except current save %)
I like gus more than giguere because he doesnt let in SOFT SOFT HOLY **** SOFT GOALS (sometimes I think toskola is in net)!!! In games where Giggy doesnt do that, I think he is a great goalie (like montreal, where he quietly did his job). Sad thing is that he lets in about 1 soft goal per game. He has more wins because he played 3 times in the first 4 starts (when leafs were playing like contenders). He played more games with character guysé leaders phanuef and armstrong in the line up.

I am with the other guy. Giggy brings out more from his team. He is a leader, character guy and a veteran. Gustavssons personality is very humble and calm (even a bit depressing) and is not the kind of guy that will fire the team up whenhe is playing in the pipes (except when he smashes his stick hahaha)

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12-13-2010, 04:44 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by RECsGuy View Post
You've got an answer for this, eyeball11?
Which team are you going to cheer for when Giguere retires?

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12-13-2010, 04:48 PM
  #220
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The only thing i disagree with here is that Giguere is TERRIBLE at handling the puck. More often than not he sends it around the boards away from a leafs player who was in the clear straight to the other team. He often plays a puck that the defenseman would have been easily able to get to before anybody else. Its frustrating.
Honestly, Gustavsson is no Eddy Belfour with the puck himself.

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12-13-2010, 04:49 PM
  #221
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You've got an answer for this, eyeball11?
I bet you're glad you tried to call me out! Probably not so glad I can read a boxscore.


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Old
12-13-2010, 05:32 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Sergei Berezin View Post
Honestly, Gustavsson is no Eddy Belfour with the puck himself.
I'd have to agree. To say Giggy is TERRIBLE with handling the puck is an overstatement. He usually keeps control, and communicates with the defensemen. He's just been burned a few times. Monster on the other hand, I love him but he handles that puck like a grenade not knowing where to put it. I can't count how many times he's shot it along the boards and it stays in for a good 60-80 seconds.

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12-13-2010, 05:47 PM
  #223
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I'm not really sure what point is being made here.
If in fact Gus gets less goal support, it leads to two questions

1: Is it a big enough differencial to explain why Giguere has a better winning percentage?
It looks like it amounts to 1 more goal every third game on average.

2: Why does the team score more with Giguere than with Gustavsson?
Is it coincidence? Does Gus tend to face better teams?
Could it be that since Gustavsson is less adept at absorbing and directing rebounds, that he faces more shots per game (and he does) and thus the Leafs spend more time in their own zone therefore not generating as many scoring opportunities of their own?
That might also be consistant with the fact they have a better GAA with Giguere than with Gus, though with a smaller differential than goals for.

Regarding playing the puck, neither are very good, and aside from Roy, I can't think of a Allaire trained goalie who was. One thing about Giguere though is it is always up the boards and usually in the direction it came from, which is what old Jacques Plante said in his book on goaltending.....but I highly doubt that is why Jiggy does it.

It is too bad though because with better puck handling they could reduce further scoring chances against and even generate a few for.

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12-14-2010, 08:28 AM
  #224
bunjay
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Originally Posted by Sergei Berezin View Post
Honestly, Gustavsson is no Eddy Belfour with the puck himself.
He sure isn't. From what I've seen both our goalies would do better to just stop the puck and leave it there, or just not touch it at all when its coming around the boards. I wonder why this hasnt been addressed, usually several times a game for both goalies what would have been an easy play for a defenseman turns into us getting stuck in our zone and occasionally scored on.

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12-14-2010, 10:27 AM
  #225
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Would of been nice game to watch, oh well glad we won.

Stupid exams... making me miss every game.

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