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GM of the year? or Stanley Cup or Bust

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Old
12-16-2010, 12:46 AM
  #626
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i agree that this place is too negati... er excuse me, objective sometimes. but then other times it is the exact opposite. i was "objective" about jvr a couple days ago and i got reemed. (no pun intended )

hate on holmgren, sound intelligent
hate on jvr, get called a troll

lol

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12-16-2010, 01:18 AM
  #627
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
Objectivity and negativity are not the same thing, dude.

Just because someone points out egregious errors in Holmgren's management does not mean we dislike our team, or don't think he's done some things very well.

There are shades of gray. You seem to think that every good move and the fact that we're #1 in the league less than halfway through the season - a TOTALLY MEANINGLESS "ACCOMPLISHMENT" - absolves every bad thing he's done. Most of us are just looking at both sides of the coin, and pointing out ways things could have gone better to get us where we are. There's nothing wrong with being OBJECTIVE. Everything isn't all good or all bad.

If your girlfriend/wife/whatever goes down on you and then ***** in your coffee five minutes later, are you going to completely ignore the bad because you got to feel like number one in the league for a few minutes? Probably not. You're allowed to point out the room for improvement without being deemed a "hater."
Now what if both those things turn you on.....

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12-16-2010, 02:14 AM
  #628
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so because we arent proclaiming Paul Holmgren as the greatest GM in the history of the game and we arent proclaiming the Flyers Stanley Cup champions we are clueless.
Good I am glad we got that cleared up.

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12-16-2010, 02:51 AM
  #629
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
so because we arent proclaiming Paul Holmgren as the greatest GM in the history of the game and we arent proclaiming the Flyers Stanley Cup champions we are clueless.
Good I am glad we got that cleared up.
Not clueless at all just gone full retard Who the **** is saying Paul is the greatest. Our team is doing pretty dam good and the GM deserves a lot of credit for that.

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12-16-2010, 05:54 AM
  #630
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
When I said that you're the most annoying optimist I've ever encountered, I meant it.

Just because we aren't all over Homer's dick and only looking at the positives doesn't mean we only acknowledge the positives. We're looking at the good and the bad.
Oh yes, you are so good at breaking down the good and bad and coming to a reasonable logical conclusion. DUHockey, Jester and a few others I would give credit to for that.....I disagree with them in this thread, but they are pointing out good in some threads and bad in others. HOWEVER - where have you ever been on the good? Find me one thread. I just went through your history and 40 in on both you and sa cyred and NOTHING. Not once. You just keep finding threads where there is negative and boom, your home.

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12-16-2010, 06:01 AM
  #631
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
lol. Well, there's not much else to say to that guy.
You agree and repeat the original thought of someone with a negative opinion. Shocking.

Off to work. I'll take a look at the hate tonight. Have fun.

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12-16-2010, 07:42 AM
  #632
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Paul Holmgren is the LAST person working in the NHL who needs to apologize for anything right now.

Don't waste your energy on the negative nellies. His great moves outweigh his mistakes at least tenfold - any of us should be so lucky. Nitpick away F-tards, you're missing a great season!
Agreed. It was nice to watch the game last night and here all the positive things being said. Then on the way to work today the Ottawa and Montreal sports radio guys were talking up the Flyers. It was nice to here for a change. Regardless of what the people here think, this team has the best shot of any team in the NHL to win the Stanley Cup this year. That is the first time I have thought that in.....om....ever? Even in the Lindros years, the Western teams were alway the favorite. This year, I think we are #1. Man - how sweet is that.

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12-16-2010, 08:11 AM
  #633
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Originally Posted by triqsix View Post
i agree that this place is too negati... er excuse me, objective sometimes. but then other times it is the exact opposite. i was "objective" about jvr a couple days ago and i got reemed. (no pun intended )

hate on holmgren, sound intelligent
hate on jvr, get called a troll

lol
Most Holmgren haters don't sound very intelligent, just over-obsessive because they need something wrong with this team to obsess over.

Hating on JVR is pretty pointless. He's playing well, he's been a regular NHLer sooner than expected, he's one of the highlights from his pathetic draft class as of right now, he doesn't get nearly the ice time or PP to complain about his production, and he's extremely cheap.

Honestly, as much as I denounce the Holmgren hatred, at least they picked something legitimate to hate.

There's no point in hating JVR just because he was what we thought was the 2nd best player (probably will go down in history as such) at the time of his draft in the weakest class in a while. It's not his fault. Based on his production, he'd be a 40-50 point player getting top minutes on a lesser team, and his production from age 20-21 is right in line with the Age 20-21 production for all of Richards, Carter, and Giroux.

Like I said, hating on JVR is really stupid.

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12-16-2010, 08:40 AM
  #634
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Hey Jester - Tim Thomas has been amazing this year, no two ways about it. You want to make 27 games sound like nothing? OK then - how many playoff games do you usually play to win a Stanley Cup?
As noted, that point probably was going to go right over your head... and it did.

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12-16-2010, 08:48 AM
  #635
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Most Holmgren haters don't sound very intelligent, just over-obsessive because they need something wrong with this team to obsess over.
Ah, Shafer, adopting arrogant a**hole posture again. Just a suggestion, you can have disagreements with people and not assume that the difference of opinion is because they're not intelligent. Perhaps they're misguided. Perhaps they have different parameters with which they analyze the subject matter. However, very rarely is it a matter of intelligence.

For example, I don't think people that swallow abject stupidity without batting an eye lash are all that intelligent. Same reasoning that allows people to argue that Bush was a good president.

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12-16-2010, 09:18 AM
  #636
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Most Holmgren haters don't sound very intelligent, just over-obsessive because they need something wrong with this team to obsess over.

Hating on JVR is pretty pointless. He's playing well, he's been a regular NHLer sooner than expected, he's one of the highlights from his pathetic draft class as of right now, he doesn't get nearly the ice time or PP to complain about his production, and he's extremely cheap.

Honestly, as much as I denounce the Holmgren hatred, at least they picked something legitimate to hate.

There's no point in hating JVR just because he was what we thought was the 2nd best player (probably will go down in history as such) at the time of his draft in the weakest class in a while. It's not his fault. Based on his production, he'd be a 40-50 point player getting top minutes on a lesser team, and his production from age 20-21 is right in line with the Age 20-21 production for all of Richards, Carter, and Giroux.

Like I said, hating on JVR is really stupid.
Laviolette is exactly what JVR needs to go to the next level. Since the benching, the honeymoon is over and JVR is a different player. If he keeps it up, he still has the 30-40 goal potential we thought when he was drafted. Once again Shafer, your right. Ripping your 2nd overall pick cause he isn't producing in his second year.....is not very smart.

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12-16-2010, 09:20 AM
  #637
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Phillyfanatic, why do you assume folks who don't think Holmgren is a particularly enlightened individual do not have a "positive outlook" on this team? To a man, we all assumed we were going to be very good this year. Everyone assumed we were going to be very good last year. One of the reasons I dislike Holmgren is because he left this team without a legit goalie to help us try to win a Cup last year... with a team BUILT TO WIN THE CUP.

Now we're going to try and win it with a rookie in his first year on NA soil... sorry, I doubt that story is going to play out in our favor (and that is not a slight to Bob).


And national media figures are rarely if ever all that informed about the nuance of individual teams... just a heads up.

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12-16-2010, 09:43 AM
  #638
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I don't get how refusing to blindly accept and approve all of Homer's decisions means we aren't good fans. Yeah, he's done some great things, but he's also done a few VERY stupid things which threaten to undo that stuff. His cap management and attempts to enter the year with MFL as starting goalie are two great examples.

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12-16-2010, 09:48 AM
  #639
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I don't get how refusing to blindly accept and approve all of Homer's decisions means we aren't good fans. Yeah, he's done some great things, but he's also done a few VERY stupid things which threaten to undo that stuff. His cap management and attempts to enter the year with MFL as starting goalie are two great examples.
Really the crux of the matter for me. There's a different between "mistakes" and "stupid decisions." If what we were talking about with Holmgren was merely "mistakes," that would be one thing. The Randy Jones decision is unforgivably... stupid.

Now, why is there a difference between a "mistake" and a "stupid decision?" A mistake is something that can result from smart thinking. However, intelligent decision making will more predictably arrive at good decisions that work out over the long run. When you have a solid dose of "stupid" you are unpredictable, and, in reality, relying on luck to a significant extent. Moreover, stupid decision making tends to beget further stupid decision making... and you cannot predict when that will happen.

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12-16-2010, 09:48 AM
  #640
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the kool-aid, drink it


And yeah Jester a mistake is taking a calculated risk that doesn't work, like trade Parent for Hamuis' rights. which was alright since we ended up with a 3rd.

Stupid mistakes are things that should not be done by someone with that much responsibility

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12-16-2010, 09:58 AM
  #641
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Most Holmgren haters don't sound very intelligent, just over-obsessive because they need something wrong with this team to obsess over.

Hating on JVR is pretty pointless. He's playing well, he's been a regular NHLer sooner than expected, he's one of the highlights from his pathetic draft class as of right now, he doesn't get nearly the ice time or PP to complain about his production, and he's extremely cheap.

Honestly, as much as I denounce the Holmgren hatred, at least they picked something legitimate to hate.

There's no point in hating JVR just because he was what we thought was the 2nd best player (probably will go down in history as such) at the time of his draft in the weakest class in a while. It's not his fault. Based on his production, he'd be a 40-50 point player getting top minutes on a lesser team, and his production from age 20-21 is right in line with the Age 20-21 production for all of Richards, Carter, and Giroux.

Like I said, hating on JVR is really stupid.
So people cant be disappointed that he is invisible more times than not? How is that hating? He doesn’t seem to give his all imo, how is that hating? He has played soft more times than not imo. Can he improve, I sure hope he does. Just observations and opinions. Guess when people have them they are hating. Oh I know your opinions are facts, I forgot. What does his draft class have to do with anything? Nothing imo. Always making excuses Cliff.
I do find it rather amusing this thread is still going strong though!

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12-16-2010, 10:06 AM
  #642
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I don't get how refusing to blindly accept and approve all of Homer's decisions means we aren't good fans. Yeah, he's done some great things, but he's also done a few VERY stupid things which threaten to undo that stuff. His cap management and attempts to enter the year with MFL as starting goalie are two great examples.
Not to argue against this apparently stunning realization that Holmgren lies somewhere in the middle of the road and not at either extreme, but there's a difference between short-term cap management and long-term cap management.

I agree that Holmgren isn't the best. Some of his decisions were as awful as a lot of his decisions were good. He shouldn't be excused for them just like his good moves shouldn't be ignored, but we need to refocus ourselves on this cap issue.

Holmgren has arguably the best on paper roster in the NHL locked up, and he can choose to pretty much keep it next year as well as possibly more years after that.

Long-term cap management is not an issue. The issue is these seemingly "whim" decisions he makes on guys like Walker, Shelley, Leighton, and Jones.

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12-16-2010, 10:22 AM
  #643
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Not to argue against this apparently stunning realization that Holmgren lies somewhere in the middle of the road and not at either extreme, but there's a difference between short-term cap management and long-term cap management.

I agree that Holmgren isn't the best. Some of his decisions were as awful as a lot of his decisions were good. He shouldn't be excused for them just like his good moves shouldn't be ignored, but we need to refocus ourselves on this cap issue.

Holmgren has arguably the best on paper roster in the NHL locked up, and he can choose to pretty much keep it next year as well as possibly more years after that.

Long-term cap management is not an issue. The issue is these seemingly "whim" decisions he makes on guys like Walker, Shelley, Leighton, and Jones.
100% agree with everything said.

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12-16-2010, 10:29 AM
  #644
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DUHockey said it best. There are two sides. Those that see the results and love Homer for the team he built (me). And those that see the bad moves and will never forgive him for it. This is a pointless argument that is only getting me banned from this sight for trying to win an impossible argument.

The GM did a great job putting this team together. It is the best team on paper in the NHL without having the luxury of 1st overall picks to help. I have no problem forgiving stupid decisions because each year we continue to win under this management team. If he was making Glen Sather type moves we wouldn't have the best team in hockey.

Once again most disagree with going into the season with Leighton/ Boucher/ Backlund/ Bobrovsky. Fine, I said months ago that is what I thought he should do. Leighton/ Boucher proved a good tandem last year. Bob looked like the future. Signing one of the "other options" didn't appeal to me. I'm in the minority there as well. I don't think the success we are having is "lucky" because Bob is playing well. I think it is great scouting put in place by good management.

In the end, this management team continues to succeed. I am in the results side of the argument. The couple of mistakes or so called stupid decisions along the way will never go away. So, no point in debating. Noboby wins.

Hovercraft and moderators - sorry if my posts turned into trolling. I just didn't appreciate the shots at me and fired back with both barrels. Sorry for that. I will move on to other threads and keep the arguments about the subject and leave the insults for others to sling.

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12-16-2010, 10:36 AM
  #645
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
DUHockey said it best. There are two sides. Those that see the results and love Homer for the team he built (me). And those that see the bad moves and will never forgive him for it. This is a pointless argument that is only getting me banned from this sight for trying to win an impossible argument.

The GM did a great job putting this team together. It is the best team on paper in the NHL without having the luxury of 1st overall picks to help. I have no problem forgiving stupid decisions because each year we continue to win under this management team. If he was making Glen Sather type moves we wouldn't have the best team in hockey.

Once again most disagree with going into the season with Leighton/ Boucher/ Backlund/ Bobrovsky. Fine, I said months ago that is what I thought he should do. Leighton/ Boucher proved a good tandem last year. Bob looked like the future. Signing one of the "other options" didn't appeal to me. I'm in the minority there as well. I don't think the success we are having is "lucky" because Bob is playing well. I think it is great scouting put in place by good management.

In the end, this management team continues to succeed. I am in the results side of the argument. The couple of mistakes or so called stupid decisions along the way will never go away. So, no point in debating. Noboby wins.

Hovercraft and moderators - sorry if my posts turned into trolling. I just didn't appreciate the shots at me and fired back with both barrels. Sorry for that. I will move on to other threads and keep the arguments about the subject and leave the insults for others to sling.
how did he look like the future before playing one pro hockey game either in the nhl or ahl?

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12-16-2010, 10:38 AM
  #646
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how did he look like the future before playing one pro hockey game either in the nhl or ahl?
I should have said Bob/Eriksson. We thought the future looked bright coming into the season based on all reports.

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12-16-2010, 10:46 AM
  #647
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I should have said Bob/Eriksson. We thought the future looked bright coming into the season based on all reports.
doesnt matter who you said, as neither at the time played one pro game in n/a. Now if you want to say the prospects in goal look good and hopefully one can be the goalie of the future then fine. Let them establish themselves a little first. I still have my doubts about the rushkie for this season. Their 18 skaters are tops as a whole, the weakness is in goal. He has a losing record against winning teams, a gaa > 3 i believe and a save % that isnt all that great. A 22 years old shouldnt have that burden on his shoulders. They will go as far as the goalies take them.

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12-16-2010, 10:54 AM
  #648
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doesnt matter who you said, as neither at the time played one pro game in n/a. Now if you want to say the prospects in goal look good and hopefully one can be the goalie of the future then fine. Let them establish themselves a little first. I still have my doubts about the rushkie for this season. Their 18 skaters are tops as a whole, the weakness is in goal. He has a losing record against winning teams, a gaa > 3 i believe and a save % that isnt all that great. A 22 years old shouldnt have that burden on his shoulders. They will go as far as the goalies take them.
Again, I had no problem this offseason with Leighton/Boucher. But that is my own personal opinion and that is why I am not upset with the goalie direction. I was in favor or signing Leighton after last year. I didn't like the replacement options on the market. Again, I am in the minority. I still like Leighton if Bob falters.

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12-16-2010, 10:56 AM
  #649
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You should still wait until Leighton plays a game in the NHL before praising him

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12-16-2010, 10:56 AM
  #650
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I don't get how refusing to blindly accept and approve all of Homer's decisions means we aren't good fans. Yeah, he's done some great things, but he's also done a few VERY stupid things which threaten to undo that stuff. His cap management and attempts to enter the year with MFL as starting goalie are two great examples.
I don't get how obsessively whining about mistakes in the past and refusing to acknowledge that the vast majority of his decisions have been excellent means you are even a fan at all?

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