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Old
12-15-2010, 06:17 PM
  #101
TonySCV
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Folks need to separate financial mistakes from personnel mistakes. Does Smyth put some financial contraints on the kings? Sure. Did Lubo? Of course.

That is entirely separate from their contributions to the team. Personnel-wise, the Kings have missed Lubo since the day he left the blueline and Smyth knows where to score goals that win hockey games. Both players were and are very valuable to the team.

Contract-wise, it's a different story. Lubo's contract would have been an albatross given the other holes that needed filling, and Dean felt that it was a mistake he had a limited window to correct and he was willing to roll the dice with other, cheaper D personnel. Obviously Dean didn't feel the same about Smyth's contract - but that was also a GAPING hole that needed to be filled on the team at the time and there was no one in the org to fill it.

- T

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Old
12-15-2010, 09:38 PM
  #102
Holden Caulfield
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonySCV View Post
Folks need to separate financial mistakes from personnel mistakes. Does Smyth put some financial contraints on the kings? Sure. Did Lubo? Of course.

That is entirely separate from their contributions to the team. Personnel-wise, the Kings have missed Lubo since the day he left the blueline and Smyth knows where to score goals that win hockey games. Both players were and are very valuable to the team.

Contract-wise, it's a different story. Lubo's contract would have been an albatross given the other holes that needed filling, and Dean felt that it was a mistake he had a limited window to correct and he was willing to roll the dice with other, cheaper D personnel. Obviously Dean didn't feel the same about Smyth's contract - but that was also a GAPING hole that needed to be filled on the team at the time and there was no one in the org to fill it.

- T
You are and everybody are never going to convince me that Lubo was a good trade. I like both Stoll and Greene, they have done a great job for the Kings, but remember that combined they both cost MORE than Lubo. I really think Lubo's smarts and positioning(something that was very underrated in his game) and him taking big minutes would have helped Johnson develop alot faster. JJ would have been thrust into such big minutes so early. Lubo was a guy who had "kings tattooed on his ass" and was a leader and what DL did to him will never, ever sit right with me.

As much as I love Greene his skill set is not very hard to replace (albeit his leadership and grit is harder but Kings have that in spades) and he is overpaid. Stoll has been great, but again could be replaced by UFA/Schenn/Loktionov. His faceoffs and grit are huge, but really sign Zigomanis(ex as he kills penalties as well) to play 4th line C, and Schenn's grit for 2nd line we are fine. Lubo replaces Stoll on pp. Really these two guys are very good, but I just think the Kings should have gone a different direction there.

And if you really want to get into financials I have numbers for every year for the Kings, but simply put take out 3.6 for Stoll, 2.95 for Greene, 3.4/3.5 for Mitchell/Scuderi (one or the other wouldn't be needed) and add 5.7 for Visnovsky and you still have 4 something to replace the 2nd line C if you want (or use Schenn and sign another defensive D if you want). The Kings would not have had any problems financially.

EDIT: Yah, I might still be a bit bitter about that trade as he was my 2nd favorite player, but it does not change the facts.


Last edited by Holden Caulfield: 12-15-2010 at 10:08 PM.
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Old
12-15-2010, 10:05 PM
  #103
MIDSHIPMAN
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Hold on Cowboy Kurrilino. Don't get too far ahead of yourself. I'm still waiting to find out who was the star player that would play here for less?

Quote:
- He screwed up when star player ofered a discount to play here.
Now we have to hunt these guys and have to overpay
Who is this? I'm guessing that you're saying it's Heatley from the quote(s) below? Am I wrong? I sure hope so BECAUSE the dude signed a 6 year 45 million contract in 2008. How again is he going to play here for less? Not allowed under the CBA to renegotiate a contract (it should be).

So who?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurrilino View Post
A) Please add Heatley to the list. He wanted to be here badly.
And please ad Cammy and Frolov to that List. What's worse than not getting a star player is scaring a couple out of town.

B) Thanks for sharing these facts with me.........
Just one question....... how many cups did we win again ????????????????????????
Are we a real contender after almost 6 years ??????

Like i said. Lombardi did a great job to rebuild a team.
Right now a monkey could coach us to the playoff. But what to do now ????????
You need talent to win the cup and Lombardi isn't the right guy to brin in the missing pieces. Since 5 years he fails to really improve. And i'm not talking to imrove from 0.
I'm talking about real improving.
A lot of the people praises him as the new coming of Ken Holland....... but you guys forget something, we started at 0. It is really easy to improve from here.
Alone the idea to keep Murray and Kompon around and telling us they are really good for the team is a slap into the face of every ticket buying fan.


The final thing what happend to me to switch from Lombardi supporter to Lombardi hater was my favorite prospects Purcell and Boyle ...............................

serious......... to trade Purcell away for an 34 year old bum and give a pick on top made me puking. Not to mention Boyle who really showed real flashes of talent against the Coyotes ..........
All that mixed with the missing opportunities of Heatley, Kovalchuk, Gaborik, Hossa
Cammy and Frolov makes me think he isn't the right guy.
His is exactly doing what he is telling us...... we did the little things right.
But how many Cups do you win with doing the little things right ????
Now for this monstrosity.

A) I had Heatley mentioned just one page previous and I know you saw it because you quoted it. Here it is again for your pleasure:
Quote:
I do see where you are coming from though. I'd love to have Gaborik here or Hossa (wasn't going to happen) or even Gagne/Heatley (I doubt we could have sent 2 roster players back to Ottawa though).
There it is. No need to add him. I think you are so caught up in your hatred for DL that you can't see what's right in front of you.

Did you also just say Cammi and Frolov. Now I've been reading these boards for a long time - long time, and I know how you felt about Frolov so why are you mentioning him? NYR can't give him away right now. Please also tell me how you would have signed Cammi as a UFA when he wanted to play for a Canadian team? Magic?

B) Are you telling me that firing DL will get us the CUP! Fire DL. I'm all for it if that's the result. Let's do it.

Next, seriously - Purcell and Boyle. Seriously? I want to see all of your posts from LAST YEAR saying what a huge mistake it was for DL to let Brian Boyle go, and not just right after the trade but throughout the entire year. I'll wait, I'm sure just like I am for the other answer I won't get about the star player who wanted to be here for less money.

I think my favorite part is the
Quote:
Since 5 years he fails to really improve.
That's CLASSIC!

I don't even need to say anything more because you just said all anyone needs to know about you and your thinking. Thank you.

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Old
12-15-2010, 10:15 PM
  #104
MIDSHIPMAN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nK View Post
I agree with most of what you have said but we did have some elite prospects in Jokinen and Scott Barney and even Matt Zultek had alot of upside in junior. Yes the Jeff Shevaliers and Justin Papineaus didn't make it, but I have talked to more than one friend back east that see ALOT of Shevalier type play in guys like Toffoli.
LA looked to have a true power forward in the making in one of Kevin Brown, Jim Hiller or Barney. None panned out but Barney was due mostly to injury.

Rosa, Bob Wrenn, Justin Hocking, Guy Levesque, Yanick Lehoux the list goes on! Thats is why I really want LA to package some of these young ASSETS for proven talent now that the team is ready to compete. I would move anyone except Schenn, Loktionov,Bernier and Forbort. Also Toffoli because his value isn't as high as his potential.

Heck I would even move Schenn, Bernier, Hickey and our 1st rd pick in 2011 if it meant getting an elite talent like Parise.

As a Kings fan you must realize that more of our so called blue chip prospects are gonna be busts than actual everyday NHLers. Something always seems to go wrong.
I never said I was against moving prospects. I was just saying our prospect pool is deep.

Is it sad that I remember all those names? The point I was making also was that our farm system sucked. It did. Phoenix sucked and so did the other place we shared with the NYI. That's all changed with DL AND (I didn't mention any of this with Cowboy K) now we have the TIME to let these guys develop. There's no rush with any of them to make the big club and that speaks volumes. Even last year or the year before people were ready to dump Lewis but look at his strides. What if we had waited an extra year or two with Boyle, Moulson or Purcell? That's now what we can do with Hickey, Forbort, Teubert and others that need a few extra seasons in the AHL to really figure it out. It was talked about last year with the Detroit method of waiting for prospects to be 'overripe' and I like it. Oops, did I just give another reason NOT to fire DL. Don't tell

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Old
12-15-2010, 11:26 PM
  #105
KINGS17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIDSHIPMAN View Post
I never said I was against moving prospects. I was just saying our prospect pool is deep.

Is it sad that I remember all those names? The point I was making also was that our farm system sucked. It did. Phoenix sucked and so did the other place we shared with the NYI. That's all changed with DL AND (I didn't mention any of this with Cowboy K) now we have the TIME to let these guys develop. There's no rush with any of them to make the big club and that speaks volumes. Even last year or the year before people were ready to dump Lewis but look at his strides. What if we had waited an extra year or two with Boyle, Moulson or Purcell? That's now what we can do with Hickey, Forbort, Teubert and others that need a few extra seasons in the AHL to really figure it out. It was talked about last year with the Detroit method of waiting for prospects to be 'overripe' and I like it. Oops, did I just give another reason NOT to fire DL. Don't tell
Man Midshipman, you need to stop riding Lombardi's jock.

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Old
12-16-2010, 01:57 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIDSHIPMAN View Post
I never said I was against moving prospects. I was just saying our prospect pool is deep.

Is it sad that I remember all those names? The point I was making also was that our farm system sucked. It did. Phoenix sucked and so did the other place we shared with the NYI. That's all changed with DL AND (I didn't mention any of this with Cowboy K) now we have the TIME to let these guys develop. There's no rush with any of them to make the big club and that speaks volumes. Even last year or the year before people were ready to dump Lewis but look at his strides. What if we had waited an extra year or two with Boyle, Moulson or Purcell? That's now what we can do with Hickey, Forbort, Teubert and others that need a few extra seasons in the AHL to really figure it out. It was talked about last year with the Detroit method of waiting for prospects to be 'overripe' and I like it. Oops, did I just give another reason NOT to fire DL. Don't tell
Yes I agree getting our own AHL team in Manchester was HUGE but this was prior to hiring DL. In the past LA has traded for guys like Straka and Anson Carter but they didn't pan out, mostly due to injury. However they both still could play as seen by there numbers after leaving LA. IMO LA needs to add a J.Jokinen/Tangauy/Sullivan or Hagman type player. I was preaching to get Fleischmann from WASH and apparently DL tried very hard but the deal fell through. Sadly he's scoring very well in COL.Sturm is a step in the right direction but another top 9 player is needed.

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Old
12-16-2010, 03:33 AM
  #107
Holden Caulfield
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nK View Post
Yes I agree getting our own AHL team in Manchester was HUGE but this was prior to hiring DL. In the past LA has traded for guys like Straka and Anson Carter but they didn't pan out, mostly due to injury. However they both still could play as seen by there numbers after leaving LA. IMO LA needs to add a J.Jokinen/Tangauy/Sullivan or Hagman type player. I was preaching to get Fleischmann from WASH and apparently DL tried very hard but the deal fell through. Sadly he's scoring very well in COL.Sturm is a step in the right direction but another top 9 player is needed.
Ah where does another top 9 player play? We already have 10, IMO (of course Parse is out until Feb so we are good). If we can get a sniper LW for the first line I am all for it, but another guy like Jokinen, Hagman really has no spot to play as it stands right now.

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Old
12-16-2010, 06:23 AM
  #108
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Visnovsky an albatross?

Lubomir Visnovsky is an all-star offensive defenseman who is still playing at a high level. His $5.5 mill cap hit is not bad at all for a player of his caliber.

D-Man with similar cap hits

Duncan Keith
Brian Rafalski
Bryan McCabe
Kimmo Timmonen
Paul Martin
Mike Green
Andrei Markov
Roman Hamrlik
Michal Roszival
Sergei Gonchar


Smyth is no longer playing at a high level, the Kings are paying him $6.1 million to stand in front of the net on the PP, look at his ES numbers, especially the last 15 games

Forwards with similar cap hits

Patrick Kane
Jonathan Toews
Paul Stastny
Henrik Zetterberg
Pavel Datsyuk
Shawn Horfcoff
Anze Kopitar
Mikko Koivu
Danny Briere
Mike Cammalleri
Patrik Elias
Alexander Semin
Mike Richards
Martin St. Louis
Henrik Sedin
Daniel Sedin
Nicklas Backstrom

It's pretty obvious the Kings are getting nowhere close to a $6 mill player in Smyth. Everyone criticizes Lowe for the Horcoff contract (and rightfully so), well Lombardi deserves just as much blame for saddling the Kings with this ridiculous contract.


@KINGS17,

Two points about your Smyth to Edmonton proposal.

1. Why would the pros pro waive his NTC to leave a contending team to go to an awful team for potentially one season. A team he already left once over a 500k salary dispute, remember the crying press conference. I'm pretty sure the pros pro would love to win a Stanley Cup before it's all said and done. Why would he give up that chance with the Kings in 2012 to go back to Edmonton for one season?

2. Why would the Oilers take up 6 mill in cap space, and $4 million in real money for a guy who is well on the decline when they have plenty of other options available. And let's be honest, Smyth is going where the money goes, he has proven this before. He will sign in 2012 with whatever team gives him the last million or two of his career.

Smyth has no incentive to leave, and even if he did the Oilers aren't going to help the Kings out of this awful contract unless the Kings send other assets with him. He is our very own Rolston and Souray next season.


Last edited by Herby: 12-16-2010 at 06:28 AM.
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Old
12-16-2010, 08:10 AM
  #109
KINGS17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herby View Post
Visnovsky an albatross?

Lubomir Visnovsky is an all-star offensive defenseman who is still playing at a high level. His $5.5 mill cap hit is not bad at all for a player of his caliber.

D-Man with similar cap hits

Duncan Keith
Brian Rafalski
Bryan McCabe
Kimmo Timmonen
Paul Martin
Mike Green
Andrei Markov
Roman Hamrlik
Michal Roszival
Sergei Gonchar


Smyth is no longer playing at a high level, the Kings are paying him $6.1 million to stand in front of the net on the PP, look at his ES numbers, especially the last 15 games

Forwards with similar cap hits

Patrick Kane
Jonathan Toews
Paul Stastny
Henrik Zetterberg
Pavel Datsyuk
Shawn Horfcoff
Anze Kopitar
Mikko Koivu
Danny Briere
Mike Cammalleri
Patrik Elias
Alexander Semin
Mike Richards
Martin St. Louis
Henrik Sedin
Daniel Sedin
Nicklas Backstrom

It's pretty obvious the Kings are getting nowhere close to a $6 mill player in Smyth. Everyone criticizes Lowe for the Horcoff contract (and rightfully so), well Lombardi deserves just as much blame for saddling the Kings with this ridiculous contract.


@KINGS17,

Two points about your Smyth to Edmonton proposal.

1. Why would the pros pro waive his NTC to leave a contending team to go to an awful team for potentially one season. A team he already left once over a 500k salary dispute, remember the crying press conference. I'm pretty sure the pros pro would love to win a Stanley Cup before it's all said and done. Why would he give up that chance with the Kings in 2012 to go back to Edmonton for one season?

2. Why would the Oilers take up 6 mill in cap space, and $4 million in real money for a guy who is well on the decline when they have plenty of other options available. And let's be honest, Smyth is going where the money goes, he has proven this before. He will sign in 2012 with whatever team gives him the last million or two of his career.

Smyth has no incentive to leave, and even if he did the Oilers aren't going to help the Kings out of this awful contract unless the Kings send other assets with him. He is our very own Rolston and Souray next season.
1. Because he loves Edmonton and the Edmonton fans love him. I can't read the guys mind, but you need to search some of the trade proposals regarding him discussed by Edmonton fans over the last 6 months. He would be welcome to return to Edmonton.

2. Edmonton operates no where near the cap and for one season $4M isn't bad for the kind of leadership Ryan Smyth provides. Your obvious disdain for the guy and Lombardi in general clouds your judgment here. That is pretty clear when you compare him to Rolston and Souray.

3. I'm not even saying the guy has to be moved. The way Doughty is playing, I doubt that he gets his mega-cap hit deal starting next season. Dean may very well tell him he is going to have to wait until Smyth is off the books. If the Kings could add Kovalchuk this past summer with Smyth on the team, they can afford a guy like Richards or Semin or whoever else Lombardi pursues as a UFA (if indeed he pursues any UFAs).

One more point. I loved Lubo when he was here as much as anyone, but the guy s*** the bed big time his last season here and at the time it was pretty much 50/50 which way his game was going to go. He didn't play all that great in Edmonton and the Kings filled two big holes in that trade. Lubo would "fit" on this team, but he isn't necessarily needed.

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Old
12-16-2010, 10:01 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIDSHIPMAN View Post
He did a great job with our rebuild but he hasn't faltered yet. The Kings are a playoff team, they're on the rise. You don't fire your GM when things are good. If we miss the playoffs I don't think he gets fired. If we really tank the season - maybe but I doubt it.
... You're contradicting yourself here. If the Kings don't make the playoffs or tank the season, are things "going good"? Not unless you're in Bizarro World. And, if the Kings miss the playoffs, that would make four out of five seasons with no playoffs in the Lombardi era, right? At what point do you say it's time to let go of the guy? Are you not willing to hold the man to any standards of ACTUAL success here? At what point do you say "enough's enough"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MIDSHIPMAN View Post
Not signing a UFA or making a huge trade does not get GM's fired when their team is winning and they're having sellouts. You also don't fire your GM because your teams PP sucks. We're 17-10-1. Better than last year at this same time. What's the problem?
... The problem is that you're being misleading here. The team is 14-11 with 3 shootouts. Last season at this time, they were 13-10 with 5 shootouts. There is virtually no difference. This season they've scored 75. Last season at this time, they had scored 80. Last season at this time, the Kings were allowing 26.6 shots per game. This season it's 28.4. I would think it's really a stretch to say that the Kings are better this season than they were last season. The only difference is that last season at this time, Quick had a save percentage of .900. This season, it's .933. That's really all it is. And is that going to last? Is Quick REALLY that good? There's no way of knowing, but I'd hate like hell to have to rely on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MIDSHIPMAN View Post
You want a big name winger for Kopi, I get it. I'd like one too, but who? I made my list. Teams just aren't dealing right now. Ottawa has been trying to make a trade since October and hasn't done anything - because no one is looking to make changes yet. Every single team in the West has a shot at the playoffs right now. The worst teams (Calgary and Edmonton who both WILL NOT make it)
... Edmonton I'll grant you, but Calgary won't? What justifies that assumption? Their goal differential is better than Anaheim's right now, they just haven't had the same luck in the close games as the Ducks have. Kiprusoff certainly can play better than he's played thus far. I think they have just as much of a chance to get in as Dallas does, or Columbus, or Phoenix, or Nashville.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MIDSHIPMAN View Post
We have the best goaltending since Kelly Hrudey and Daniel Berthiaume both had 20 wins in 1990/91 - that's 20 years ago and only lasted for that year - so you could argue that we have better goaltending right now than Glenn Healy and Mark Fitzpatrick (that was supposed to be our future in the late 80's - ha!). Than EVER. Then you add in Zatkoff and Jones (I'm very high on Jones). WOW!
... You're reaching here, giving credit for what hasn't happened yet, and comparing your expectations of future goalies to actual performance of past goalies. Quick has not proven he's a great goalie, not after 21 games. Quick had a pretty good half season and a bad full season coming into this one. If he can prove he is a true number one after a full season, then OK, but he hasn't done that yet. Just because Quick is young does not mean he's a sure thing. Robb Stauber had three playoff wins by the age of 25, yet faltered.

Bernier has not proven himself as a goaltender, and it remains to be seen if this organization will even give him an opportunity. Zatkoff and Jones aren't part of the discussion, no matter how high you are on them.

The Kings have had pretty good goaltending pairings since Hrudey/Berthiaume, by the way. In 1998-99, Fiset/Storr/Legace played well. In 2001-02, Potvin/Storr was pretty good as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MIDSHIPMAN View Post
DL isn't going to get fired anytime soon. We haven't looked this good in over 20 years. Our prospect depth hasn't EVER been this good.
... The prospect depth is better because the Kings sucked for three seasons, and they let established players go to acquire picks. I would expect the prospect depth to be better after that - wouldn't you? And, beyond that, look at the people who are leading the team this season. Kopitar (Taylor's draft), Williams (acquired by trading O'Sullivan, who was part of the return for trading Demitra), Stoll (acquired by trading Visnovsky),Brown (Taylor's draft) and Quick (Taylor's draft). Lombardi had some pieces already in place when he got here, didn't he? The current success of the Kings has largely been a result of the talent base that was in place, trading some of the talent that was in place for other talent, and signing talent in free agency. He hasn't expanded the Kings' talent base all too much, or at least not to anything that's translated to success at the NHL level, aside from the obvious Doughty pick and the admittedly good Simmonds pick.

Lombardi hasn't been a bad GM. But he hasn't been an overly good one, either, and I don't see where he's exempt from expectations to produce on the ice after a certain amount of time. Can you tell me how many GMs would be allowed to keep their jobs after two playoff wins in five seasons? I would think the Kings NEED to improve over last season's showing if Lombardi's gonna keep his job, and right now that is not a foregone conclusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
The way Doughty is playing I am not too sure I am worried about signing him to a long term, high cap hit deal. Lombardi might very well send a message by only offering a couple of years.
... The only message Lombardi would be sending if he did that is "I am an idiot who doesn't care about having good players on my hockey club lol" because it wouldn't be long before Doughty saw his way out of L.A. if that happened.

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Old
12-16-2010, 10:21 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post

... The problem is that you're being misleading here. The team is 14-11 with 3 shootouts. Last season at this time, they were 13-10 with 5 shootouts. There is virtually no difference. This season they've scored 75. Last season at this time, they had scored 80. Last season at this time, the Kings were allowing 26.6 shots per game. This season it's 28.4. I would think it's really a stretch to say that the Kings are better this season than they were last season. The only difference is that last season at this time, Quick had a save percentage of .900. This season, it's .933. That's really all it is. And is that going to last? Is Quick REALLY that good? There's no way of knowing, but I'd hate like hell to have to rely on that..
I'm not going back to find it, but I swear in the last week or two you argued in a post that Quick really wasnt better this season, but the team in front of him was.
Man, it just goes to show that statistics can be used to prove anything, including the points you think you're not making. Intellectual ping pong is all they are good for, and in the end they "prove" nothing.

By your own argument, JQ is better. The Kings are giving up more shots and not only is JQ saving more actual shots, he is saving a higher percentage of them too. As for relying on it, Don't you worry about that. You're not on the ice (in fact I don't know if you ever even played the game). But every team I have ever played on, every team I have ever coached, every team I've ever watched or heard about with the possible exception of the Edmonton Oilers (Gretzky era) RELIED on their Goaltender being as good as he could be. The Kings players and the management and us fans RELY on JQ, and if he falters we'll RELY on JB. We have to, thats the nature of the position.

AS the saying goes: Offense wins games, but Defense wins championships. And in hockey, defense begins and ends at the goal line.

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Old
12-16-2010, 12:11 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
I'm not going back to find it, but I swear in the last week or two you argued in a post that Quick really wasnt better this season, but the team in front of him was.
... I've said all season that he's been better. He has been much more solid, he's not giving up the soft goals he gave up last season. But then, I said he was wonderful in the Detroit game about five times before you noticed it. I suppose we don't see what we don't want to see. You have it in your mind that because I haven't anointed Quick the next great goaltender, I must be anti-Quick.

Quote:
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Man, it just goes to show that statistics can be used to prove anything, including the points you think you're not making. Intellectual ping pong is all they are good for, and in the end they "prove" nothing.
... What does this even mean? Don't you use stats to prove Quick is better this season than he was last season? Didn't you use a stat (51 saves) to back up your assertion that he stole the Detroit game? It's the same as quite a few people here - they hate stats, unless the stats agree with their opinions. Isn't intellectual back-and-forth the point of a message board in the first place?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
By your own argument, JQ is better. The Kings are giving up more shots and not only is JQ saving more actual shots, he is saving a higher percentage of them too.
... See, you catch on fast! Good job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
As for relying on it, Don't you worry about that. You're not on the ice (in fact I don't know if you ever even played the game).
... I stopped playing the game a while back because of injuries. Don't see where it's even relevant whether I played the game or not; does it invalidate my opinions if I hadn't? Does someone need to be a hockey player to understand hockey? If so, that's news to me.

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Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
But every team I have ever played on, every team I have ever coached, every team I've ever watched or heard about with the possible exception of the Edmonton Oilers (Gretzky era) RELIED on their Goaltender being as good as he could be. The Kings players and the management and us fans RELY on JQ, and if he falters we'll RELY on JB. We have to, thats the nature of the position.
... I saw the Kings post a winning record and earn a playoff berth last season despite poor goaltending. I've seen teams win with very ordinary goaltending. I've seen teams lose despite excellent goaltending. The goalie is simply one aspect of a hockey club - no more, no less. If the five guys in front of a goalie play extremely well, even an average or poor goalie can succeed. If the five guys in front of a goalie play poorly, even the best goalies can and do have problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
AS the saying goes: Offense wins games, but Defense wins championships.
... I posted something not long ago - about the last 25 championship teams. Lemme see if I can find it.

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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Well that's a philosophy issue, and the big problem I have with it is that this whole tried and true axiom of "defense wins championships" is largely a myth if you go back and look at past Cup champions. Sure, those champions ramped up their game defensively in the playoffs in certain cases, but it is by and large the teams who have more on the offensive end that win it all. The teams that know they can open it up and score goals if they need them are far more likely to win games and playoff series. Go back over the last 25 or 26 years. How often do you see the champion missing the top 9 in scoring? Twice, and those were the New Jersey teams in '95 and '03. In the last five seasons alone, a couple teams which were below average defensively (Carolina and Pittsburgh) still won the Cup.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
And in hockey, defense begins and ends at the goal line.
... I'm shocked that you've played the game and have this opinion. I'm shocked you've been a Kings' fan all this time and you have this opinion. How many times did the Kings of the last three decades give up odd-man rushes which led to goals? Or get outnumbered down low in front of their net? Or pick the puck out of their net after failing to clear the zone? "Defense" consists of a few things that tie together - part of defense is offense, part of it is containment, part of it is goaltending. A team can have the best body checkers and shot-blockers, the most defensive awareness in the World ... but if those players can't execute a breakout, or keep the puck in the offensive zone for any length of time, the team is going to have a bad defense. There's no getting around it. You can't have one without some of the other.

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12-16-2010, 03:48 PM
  #113
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... You're contradicting yourself here. If the Kings don't make the playoffs or tank the season, are things "going good"? Not unless you're in Bizarro World. And, if the Kings miss the playoffs, that would make four out of five seasons with no playoffs in the Lombardi era, right? At what point do you say it's time to let go of the guy? Are you not willing to hold the man to any standards of ACTUAL success here? At what point do you say "enough's enough"?



... The problem is that you're being misleading here. The team is 14-11 with 3 shootouts. Last season at this time, they were 13-10 with 5 shootouts. There is virtually no difference. This season they've scored 75. Last season at this time, they had scored 80. Last season at this time, the Kings were allowing 26.6 shots per game. This season it's 28.4. I would think it's really a stretch to say that the Kings are better this season than they were last season. The only difference is that last season at this time, Quick had a save percentage of .900. This season, it's .933. That's really all it is. And is that going to last? Is Quick REALLY that good? There's no way of knowing, but I'd hate like hell to have to rely on that.



... Edmonton I'll grant you, but Calgary won't? What justifies that assumption? Their goal differential is better than Anaheim's right now, they just haven't had the same luck in the close games as the Ducks have. Kiprusoff certainly can play better than he's played thus far. I think they have just as much of a chance to get in as Dallas does, or Columbus, or Phoenix, or Nashville.



... You're reaching here, giving credit for what hasn't happened yet, and comparing your expectations of future goalies to actual performance of past goalies. Quick has not proven he's a great goalie, not after 21 games. Quick had a pretty good half season and a bad full season coming into this one. If he can prove he is a true number one after a full season, then OK, but he hasn't done that yet. Just because Quick is young does not mean he's a sure thing. Robb Stauber had three playoff wins by the age of 25, yet faltered.

Bernier has not proven himself as a goaltender, and it remains to be seen if this organization will even give him an opportunity. Zatkoff and Jones aren't part of the discussion, no matter how high you are on them.

The Kings have had pretty good goaltending pairings since Hrudey/Berthiaume, by the way. In 1998-99, Fiset/Storr/Legace played well. In 2001-02, Potvin/Storr was pretty good as well.



... The prospect depth is better because the Kings sucked for three seasons, and they let established players go to acquire picks. I would expect the prospect depth to be better after that - wouldn't you? And, beyond that, look at the people who are leading the team this season. Kopitar (Taylor's draft), Williams (acquired by trading O'Sullivan, who was part of the return for trading Demitra), Stoll (acquired by trading Visnovsky),Brown (Taylor's draft) and Quick (Taylor's draft). Lombardi had some pieces already in place when he got here, didn't he? The current success of the Kings has largely been a result of the talent base that was in place, trading some of the talent that was in place for other talent, and signing talent in free agency. He hasn't expanded the Kings' talent base all too much, or at least not to anything that's translated to success at the NHL level, aside from the obvious Doughty pick and the admittedly good Simmonds pick.

Lombardi hasn't been a bad GM. But he hasn't been an overly good one, either, and I don't see where he's exempt from expectations to produce on the ice after a certain amount of time. Can you tell me how many GMs would be allowed to keep their jobs after two playoff wins in five seasons? I would think the Kings NEED to improve over last season's showing if Lombardi's gonna keep his job, and right now that is not a foregone conclusion.



... The only message Lombardi would be sending if he did that is "I am an idiot who doesn't care about having good players on my hockey club lol" because it wouldn't be long before Doughty saw his way out of L.A. if that happened.
JT, please see above where I said I've been reading these boards for a long time. LGK too. Please go back to your Rob Blake and LA Dodger love and leave the hockey talk to us KINGS FANS.

DL isn't going to be fired anytime soon. The Kings will make the playoffs. When they don't I'll start to think about changing GM's. Until then I'll ride the wave of winning. And then next year when we make the playoffs AGAIN I'll wait and see how we do in them to tell you if I think DL needs to be let go.

Now, I really don't care about DL, I care about the Kings. I just don't see any reason to fire the guy. You don't either unless they start to suck so, spell it out for me - tell me why DL gets fired. That's what this is all about. Convince me. I'll tell you that you can't because the entire arguement will be based on 'if this and if that'. Right now you're in the same boat as Kurrilino - not good company. It's what I've come to expect from you however because you're always negative. We are on pace for another 100+ point season and you find the bad stuff to post. Typical JT. Some things never change.

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12-16-2010, 04:04 PM
  #114
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What is this JT?

Quote:
... The prospect depth is better because the Kings sucked for three seasons, and they let established players go to acquire picks. I would expect the prospect depth to be better after that - wouldn't you? And, beyond that, look at the people who are leading the team this season. Kopitar (Taylor's draft), Williams (acquired by trading O'Sullivan, who was part of the return for trading Demitra), Stoll (acquired by trading Visnovsky),Brown (Taylor's draft) and Quick (Taylor's draft). Lombardi had some pieces already in place when he got here, didn't he? The current success of the Kings has largely been a result of the talent base that was in place, trading some of the talent that was in place for other talent, and signing talent in free agency. He hasn't expanded the Kings' talent base all too much, or at least not to anything that's translated to success at the NHL level, aside from the obvious Doughty pick and the admittedly good Simmonds pick.
You are totally picking and choosing parts that make your arguement true but are misleading. Are you a lawyer? Am I reading this wrong? Are you crediting DT with the Williams trade because he traded Demitra for POS? And then Stoll for Vis. What is that? Those are clearly great moves by DL that you are giving DT credit for to supplement your POV - good try but NO. Tell me how terrible Zeus is, Greene, Smyth for really nothing and then when you bring up Quincey tell me who took him off the waiver wire. The JJ trade was hailed as a huge win for the Kings. You amaze me.

Last of all. Doughty wasn't a sure thing at #2. A lot of people wanted Zack or Filatov. We look back now and say, 'of course, that was easy.' but at the time it wasn't. Go back and look if you don't believe me.

I'm done with all of this. I can't believe I got sucked into an arguement with Kurrilino and JT. Shame on me. Shame on us all!

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12-16-2010, 04:27 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by MIDSHIPMAN View Post
JT, please see above where I said I've been reading these boards for a long time. LGK too. Please go back to your Rob Blake and LA Dodger love and leave the hockey talk to us KINGS FANS.

DL isn't going to be fired anytime soon. The Kings will make the playoffs. When they don't I'll start to think about changing GM's. Until then I'll ride the wave of winning. And then next year when we make the playoffs AGAIN I'll wait and see how we do in them to tell you if I think DL needs to be let go.

Now, I really don't care about DL, I care about the Kings. I just don't see any reason to fire the guy. You don't either unless they start to suck so, spell it out for me - tell me why DL gets fired. That's what this is all about. Convince me. I'll tell you that you can't because the entire arguement will be based on 'if this and if that'. Right now you're in the same boat as Kurrilino - not good company. It's what I've come to expect from you however because you're always negative. We are on pace for another 100+ point season and you find the bad stuff to post. Typical JT. Some things never change.
... OK, in other words, you have nothing. You don't want to read posts, not even your own posts, since you say here "When they don't make the playoffs I'll think about changing GMs" and you said in an earlier post in this thread "If we miss the playoffs I don't think he gets fired. If we really tank the season - maybe but I doubt it." So which is it? And, why even bother mentioning that the Kings will miss the playoffs when your crystal ball says they'll definitely make them?

It's also adorable how my support of a former Kings player makes me less of a Kings fan or that me being a Dodger fan is somehow against the rules of being a true Kings fan. Funny how newer fans think they get to draw up the guidelines somehow.

You saying that I'm always negative just shows you don't really read posts too often, as does you asking me to tell you how Lombardi gets fired. Amazing how you quote my post without even reading it; the answer to your question is right in there. And I'll try to hold back my tears at being referred to as not good company. I'm sure good company must be those who don't read posts and can't remember what they said from one post to the next. It truly breaks my heart not to be part of that group.

And only a Lombardi homer would say Doughty wasn't the obvious #2 pick. Who was #2 in central scouting for the longest period of time? Show me the experts who felt that Doughty wouldn't get selected when he did.

"I think it's almost a foregone conclusion that they're gonna take Drew Doughty."

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12-16-2010, 04:40 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
You saying that I'm always negative just shows you don't really read posts too often, as does you asking me to tell you how Lombardi gets fired. Amazing how you quote my post without even reading it; the answer to your question is right in there. And I'll try to hold back my tears at being referred to as not good company. I'm sure good company must be those who don't read posts and can't remember what they said from one post to the next. It truly breaks my heart not to be part of that group.

And only a Lombardi homer would say Doughty wasn't the obvious #2 pick. Who was #2 in central scouting for the longest period of time? Show me the experts who felt that Doughty wouldn't get selected when he did.

"I think it's almost a foregone conclusion that they're gonna take Drew Doughty."
You are always negative.


And here are two mock drafts I easily found where Doughty didn't get selected #2

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hocke...ck-draft_N.htm

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...18/mock.draft/

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12-16-2010, 04:43 PM
  #117
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You are always negative.
... You know what, never mind - rock on man

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12-16-2010, 04:46 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Oh hey another person who doesn't read posts and trolls 24/7

and USA Today and Sports Illustrated ~HOCKEY EXPERTS~
If I didn't read your post how would I have known that you accused Midshipman of thinking you are always negative and the "Doughty for was foregone conclusion of a second pick".

The link I posted from USA today is Kyle Woodlief. Woodlief is an expert.



Now...... who is the person who doesn't read others posts?

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12-16-2010, 04:47 PM
  #119
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The tit for tat is good to a point. The level of serious discussion is good here when there are disagreements. We've gone beyond that point in this thread and some others the last little while.

Everyone calm down and chill with the personal attacks or some infractions are going to be dished out. Nobody comes on here to read name-calling contests.

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12-16-2010, 05:41 PM
  #120
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... OK, in other words, you have nothing. You don't want to read posts, not even your own posts, since you say here "When they don't make the playoffs I'll think about changing GMs" and you said in an earlier post in this thread "If we miss the playoffs I don't think he gets fired. If we really tank the season - maybe but I doubt it." So which is it? And, why even bother mentioning that the Kings will miss the playoffs when your crystal ball says they'll definitely make them?

It's also adorable how my support of a former Kings player makes me less of a Kings fan or that me being a Dodger fan is somehow against the rules of being a true Kings fan. Funny how newer fans think they get to draw up the guidelines somehow.

You saying that I'm always negative just shows you don't really read posts too often, as does you asking me to tell you how Lombardi gets fired. Amazing how you quote my post without even reading it; the answer to your question is right in there. And I'll try to hold back my tears at being referred to as not good company. I'm sure good company must be those who don't read posts and can't remember what they said from one post to the next. It truly breaks my heart not to be part of that group.

And only a Lombardi homer would say Doughty wasn't the obvious #2 pick. Who was #2 in central scouting for the longest period of time? Show me the experts who felt that Doughty wouldn't get selected when he did.

"I think it's almost a foregone conclusion that they're gonna take Drew Doughty."
I guess I need to spell it out for you. What I want to happen and what I think TL will do are two (2) completely different things. That was the point in my first post that you didn't grasp. I was saying that if the Kings miss the playoffs I don't think Tim Leiweke fires him and even if we tank I'm not sure TL fires him then. That was my opinion of what I think TL will do - none of that was what I want to have happen to DL. I was speculating on something entirely different that you failed to get. I'm sorry that I took a Hemmingway approach and left it a little vague. Pretty simple stuff. Go back and re-read what I wrote and maybe it will make sense to you then.

All this Doughty stuff. Dude, don't get into the draft with me. Tell me how hard it was for DT to draft Kopitar? How many quotes do you need me to get you to let you know that DL seriously wanted to get Bogo? He didn't decide to get Drew until he went to Drew's house and saw the Canadian Junior team sweater hanging on his wall with the Canada side out and not the name side. Then convince me that NHL GM's don't go off the board and draft who they think is the best guy but only go off CSB, ISS or Hockeynews. That will be classic with DL and his first draft of Hickey and where they drafted Moller and the picks of Simmonds and Clifford.

We aren't going to agree because you love to argue. It's that simple.

I replied - shame on me again.

And I read and UNDERSTOOD your post about how expectations are higher and all that. I got it.


Last edited by MIDSHIPMAN: 12-16-2010 at 06:28 PM. Reason: Deleted personal attack stuff - my bad.
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12-16-2010, 05:51 PM
  #121
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Now in saying all of this. That's cool that we don't agree. We both love the Kings. Maybe next year when I'm back in LA we can meet at a game and I'll buy you a beer. After all, I'm not only going to be an Officer but a Gentleman too

A PLAYOFF GAME!

Ha, I just saw the post above by Live in the now. Sorry dude. Olive branch extended.

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12-16-2010, 06:04 PM
  #122
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Getting back on topic of Armchair GM. I'll repost my first reply to the original post.

I would target certain guys if I'm DL and at the top of my list are:
1. Semin - he's going to get a lot of money in the summer
2. Iginla - he won't be available until the trade deadline at the earliest is my guess
3. Leino - seriously Leino. He would be my first choice to get right now. The guy has skills. He's also tied for 3rd for the teams scoring lead and I don't see Philly being able to sign him this summer. He's older and since last years playoffs has really come around and is putting it all together. Could be a gem.

I also wouldn't mind seeing DL look more towards a younger guy to bring up in the next year or two like: Filatov, Niederreiter (NYI are a mess), Kreider, Tangradi and last but not least the guy I was hoping we would pick at #15...Vladimir Tarasenko.

The problem is: we as pretend GM's don't know what other teams want or are offering. It's easy to say sign Semin in the summer but how much are you going to pay and what happens if one (1) he prefers to stay in Washington or two (2) someone pulls a NJ and offers the guy rediculous money?

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12-16-2010, 06:54 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIDSHIPMAN View Post
Hold on Cowboy Kurrilino. Don't get too far ahead of yourself.

Next, seriously - Purcell and Boyle. Seriously? I want to see all of your posts from LAST YEAR saying what a huge mistake it was for DL to let Brian Boyle go, and not just right after the trade but throughout the entire year. I'll wait, I'm sure just like I am for the other answer I won't get about the star player who wanted to be here for less money.

I think my favorite part is the That's CLASSIC!

I don't even need to say anything more because you just said all anyone needs to know about you and your thinking. Thank you.

Well................... i completely snaped after Lombardi,s Purcell move.
Purcell has always been my favorite prospect and i'm full of burning hate for this.

How can anyone talk about improvement when players like Boyle Purcell or Patty'O are traded while prospects like Zeiler, Clune, Westgarth etc... are still here ?????

Can anyone answer that for me ????

Like i said......... Lombardi did an ok job but not great.
He improved the team from 0 to 70% and that is not a masterpiece.
But these days he has to improve the team over these 70% and this is what he is not able to do.
We need a true maker now not a tryer.

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12-16-2010, 08:15 PM
  #124
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Well................... i completely snaped after Lombardi,s Purcell move.
Purcell has always been my favorite prospect and i'm full of burning hate for this.

How can anyone talk about improvement when players like Boyle Purcell or Patty'O are traded while prospects like Zeiler, Clune, Westgarth etc... are still here ?????

Can anyone answer that for me ????

Like i said......... Lombardi did an ok job but not great.
He improved the team from 0 to 70% and that is not a masterpiece.
But these days he has to improve the team over these 70% and this is what he is not able to do.
We need a true maker now not a tryer.
Boyle needed a change of scenery. He wasn't going to crack the lineup here.
Patty O? Really? Lombardi sold high on that one.
Clune and Westgarth are placeholders.
Purcell....blah

We just added Sturm and DL said he was going to add at the deadline.

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12-17-2010, 12:00 AM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Bunny Foo Foo View Post
Boyle needed a change of scenery. He wasn't going to crack the lineup here.
Well not to crack the lineup or not being put into the lineup is different.
Boyle was aleays in my lineup
Patty O? Really? Lombardi sold high on that one.
Agree, i love Williams. But i try to point out that we give away 20 goal scorer
and keep guys like Wetsgarth, Zeiler, Culne etc..........
Clune and Westgarth are placeholders.
Placeholder for what ?????
Purcell....blah
well he would be the Kings 3rd best scorer.... not to mention how he would play on Kopitars side............ but who needs scoring as long as we have grinding and wrapping around.

We just added Sturm and DL said he was going to add at the deadline.
He is telling that since 5 years.
well......... different opinions here

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