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Old
12-17-2010, 12:18 PM
  #26
Northern Neighbour
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Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
but without Staios & Kotalik we would have almost $6 million to try and acquire that #1 center... which is not as easy to acquire as so many posters on here seem to think it is
If you add Stajan's terrible contract, that's another $3.5M in cap space.

I didn't like the Phaneuf trade, as the team didn't get one core asset in return.

And keeping or trading Phaneuf wouldn't have affected the team's ability to re-sign Bourque and Giordano. What would have hamstrung the team was the acquisitions of Kotalik and Staois. These two were unnecessary moves. Those two's salaries would have been more than enough to cover the raises for Bourque and Giordano.

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12-17-2010, 12:30 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour View Post
If you add Stajan's terrible contract, that's another $3.5M in cap space.

I didn't like the Phaneuf trade, as the team didn't get one core asset in return.

And keeping or trading Phaneuf wouldn't have affected the team's ability to re-sign Bourque and Giordano. What would have hamstrung the team was the acquisitions of Kotalik and Staois. These two were unnecessary moves. Those two's salaries would have been more than enough to cover the raises for Bourque and Giordano.
Stajan's contract is far from horrible... its not a bargain but its almost dead on for market value

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12-17-2010, 12:48 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
Stajan's contract is far from horrible... its not a bargain but its almost dead on for market value
The problem is maximizing what you get out your contracts, especially with regards to the cap.

Stajan's contract is close to value yes, but I'd rather have so many other players around the league at that value. His lack of finish and grit irritate me, but he has shown more in the that respect as of late. Hopefully he keeps it up.

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12-17-2010, 01:05 PM
  #29
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The problem is maximizing what you get out your contracts, especially with regards to the cap.

Stajan's contract is close to value yes, but I'd rather have so many other players around the league at that value. His lack of finish and grit irritate me, but he has shown more in the that respect as of late. Hopefully he keeps it up.
considering Stajan has only finished with fewer that 14 goals once in his career I wouldn't worry too much about the finish... it will come and he will be good for 15+ goals like most years... also keep in mind Stajan is clearly being asked to be more of a playmaker as a Flame...

so far as a Flame he has had the best assist numbers of his career... and is doing better this year than last... he is on pace for 46/47 assists this season...

did you realize that pace last year would have let to him finishing in the top 15 in assists among centermen and top 25 of all skaters??...

or how about this... of the players with 45+ assists last season not one player is making less than Stajan... in fact only 2 of them are making under $5 million and none under $4.5 million

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12-17-2010, 01:17 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
considering Stajan has only finished with fewer that 14 goals once in his career I wouldn't worry too much about the finish... it will come and he will be good for 15+ goals like most years... also keep in mind Stajan is clearly being asked to be more of a playmaker as a Flame...

so far as a Flame he has had the best assist numbers of his career... and is doing better this year than last... he is on pace for 46/47 assists this season...

did you realize that pace last year would have let to him finishing in the top 15 in assists among centermen and top 25 of all skaters??...

or how about this... of the players with 45+ assists last season not one player is making less than Stajan... in fact only 2 of them are making under $5 million and none under $4.5 million
I'm not worried about his production. That's a huge positive about him is his point consistency through the years. I just don't care for the way he plays the game. I feel like the flames need more players who are consistent and bring a high level of intensity every night. Last nights game against the leafs is more of what I want to see from Stajan. If he plays like that on a consistent basis he'll win me over. But for now, I'm still not a fan of the signing.

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12-17-2010, 01:54 PM
  #31
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I admittedly have never been a fan of Stajan's. His point totals are a bit overstated given that he received #1 centre minutes in Toronto but provided 2nd-line production. Now that he's playing a 2nd- and 3rd-line minutes, we've witnessed a precipitous decline in production. I don't think that's a coincidence.

My other issue with Stajan's contract isn't directly related to Stajan. Instead, I just thought the team could have better used the cap space and gone after a #1 centre or at least a more skilled player. As I mentioned, if Stajan's contract was allowed to lapse and the team didn't have Staios' or Kotalik's contract, the team would have a lot more room to manuevre under the cap to acquire a #1 centre. Also, if Sutter did his homework and looked around the league to see which teams were up against the cap, he likely would have been able to find some deals. For instance, Marc Savard is still available because of the Bruins' cap issues (and everyone knew about it in the off-season), and Savard seems willing to come to Calgary. But the Flames don't have the cap space to make such a move.

Stajan's contract is just one of a long line of bad (or not very strategic) decisions by Sutter.

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12-17-2010, 02:01 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
or how about this... of the players with 45+ assists last season not one player is making less than Stajan... in fact only 2 of them are making under $5 million and none under $4.5 million
And how many of them have scored 1 goal in their last 45 games and have been a healthy scratch lately?

I'm guessing its only Stajan.

Considering that Stajan has for the most part been getting 2st line and PP time with the Flames best players, his production is one of the main reasons we are doing so poorly.

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12-17-2010, 02:41 PM
  #33
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And how many of them have scored 1 goal in their last 45 games and have been a healthy scratch lately?

I'm guessing its only Stajan.

Considering that Stajan has for the most part been getting 2st line and PP time with the Flames best players, his production is one of the main reasons we are doing so poorly.
Stajan's production is one of the main reasons we are doing so poorly? that is the dumbest **** I have heard in a long time

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12-17-2010, 02:59 PM
  #34
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The only problem with Stajan is that he is a SECOND LINE centre being used in a 1st line role. For a second line centreman, there are not many better in the league. He is a good FO guy, decent speed and a decent playmaker. He just is not a top guy. His contract is as Lunatik said is not steal, but it is fair value. If we had a true #1 and had Stajan as our 2nd, there would not even be a discussion about this. Hopefully Backlund surpasses him by next season and can assume the top line duties.

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12-17-2010, 05:20 PM
  #35
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I'd have say Lunatik is making some pretty compelling arguements.

I think another thing to consider is the current trend of NHL contracts. Sutter is smart enough to avoid signing a player to 10-15 years, but besides that, a top line centre will come at the cost of 6-million or more. Jokinen was half that for only two years, which isn't bad considering that Jokinen only put up 50 points. I too never hated on the Jokinen signing.

Daryl Sutter has gone for the quantity (a deep team) over quality (two solid lines) approach, and hasn't been successful because these players aren't consistent or playing to their potential. Considering that we haven't developed our own superstars, that's the safe approach to go because otherwise we might have made a Kovalchuk kinda of deal. But oh well, at least the "questionable" players on this roster aren't locked up very long.

You guys have to keep in mind that Daryl Sutter respects NHL players, in that he doesn't bury veteran players in the minors or place them on waivers (although Staios is rotting in the press box - but that's from poor play). He places prospects on waivers so that way they can have a chance with other teams instead of wasting their talents in the minors. And that speaks volumes to players, and if we're going to land good players in this cold-climate city, we'll need to be a first class organization.


Last edited by MarkGio: 12-18-2010 at 01:52 AM.
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Old
12-17-2010, 05:55 PM
  #36
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I don't want to jump into a flames fan discussion as a leaf fan but what did you guys actually think he could have gotten for Dion . He came here with a big rep but he's hasn't played anywhere near how he played in his first few years . No team was going to give up a quality player(s) for the way Dion was playing or is still playing . The guys lateral mobilty is crap and his decision making in his own end is more than suspect . He's been okay here but he isn't worth anything close to what he's being paid , and in a cap world thats very important . I can't think of any team that would have given up quality prospects and picks for this guy without giving back a worse contract .

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12-17-2010, 07:49 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
did you realize that pace last year would have let to him finishing in the top 15 in assists among centermen and top 25 of all skaters??...

or how about this... of the players with 45+ assists last season not one player is making less than Stajan... in fact only 2 of them are making under $5 million and none under $4.5 million
Don't forget to mention that he's also on pace for 3 goals. Last year of the players who got 45+ assists only 3 (not including the Dmen) didn't score over 20 goals.

Gomez, (awful contract) Connolly, and Getzlaf. Getzlaf only played 66 games and really shouldn't ever be in a conversation with Stajan. So the only real comparable person on the list you are talking about is Connolly. Otherwise you were trying to compare Stajan's salary to guys like: Zetterberg, Kopitar, Perry, Malkin, Alfredsson, Sedin, Kane etc to show that Stajan is at market value.

It's not fair to pick one statistic, pro rate it, then ignore all other factors. Otherwise I could go like this.

Stajan is on pace for 3 goals this year. He is making way more then market value because other forwards at 3 goals from last year include, Laperriere, Pahlsson, Conroy, Mayers, Sjostrom.

You can make stats show almost anything you want.

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Old
12-17-2010, 08:36 PM
  #38
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Stajan's production is one of the main reasons we are doing so poorly? that is the dumbest **** I have heard in a long time
When your first line centre has one goal you don't consider it a problem?

He's taking valuable ice time and PP time from those that might be more productive.

There is only so much premium ice time to go around.

If someone doesn't produce enough with that ice time, there is no getting it back.

Last place teams often have 1st line players with 55 points for a reason.

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Old
12-18-2010, 12:08 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by slappipappi View Post
When your first line centre has one goal you don't consider it a problem?

He's taking valuable ice time and PP time from those that might be more productive.

There is only so much premium ice time to go around.

If someone doesn't produce enough with that ice time, there is no getting it back.

Last place teams often have 1st line players with 55 points for a reason.
the difference between you and I is that I have enough use of my brain to understand that the problem is not what Stajan is producing, but the fact that Stajan is being expected to be more than he is capable of because the team doesn't have the right players for that role

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12-18-2010, 12:09 AM
  #40
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Don't forget to mention that he's also on pace for 3 goals. Last year of the players who got 45+ assists only 3 (not including the Dmen) didn't score over 20 goals.

Gomez, (awful contract) Connolly, and Getzlaf. Getzlaf only played 66 games and really shouldn't ever be in a conversation with Stajan. So the only real comparable person on the list you are talking about is Connolly. Otherwise you were trying to compare Stajan's salary to guys like: Zetterberg, Kopitar, Perry, Malkin, Alfredsson, Sedin, Kane etc to show that Stajan is at market value.

It's not fair to pick one statistic, pro rate it, then ignore all other factors. Otherwise I could go like this.

Stajan is on pace for 3 goals this year. He is making way more then market value because other forwards at 3 goals from last year include, Laperriere, Pahlsson, Conroy, Mayers, Sjostrom.

You can make stats show almost anything you want.
read all my posts... I addressed his goals...

or how about your boy Whitney... he is on pace for 0 goals... doesn't make his asissts less impressive

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Old
12-18-2010, 06:23 AM
  #41
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read all my posts... I addressed his goals...

or how about your boy Whitney... he is on pace for 0 goals... doesn't make his asissts less impressive
You're right. I remember way back when people were getting on Gretzky for not scoring in like 20 games or something near the end of his career; never mind he was still a PPG centre at that point... Stajan should, realistically, have maybe 5 more points. He has 16 assists, and is on pace for ~60 points. Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong, but is that not what Stajan's ability indicates he should be getting?

Maybe he develops a little bit more and pulls together a 70 point campaign somewhere, but 17 points and a +4 on one of the worst teams in the NHL is hardly reason to jump on the guy.

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12-18-2010, 07:38 AM
  #42
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The problem is in the details...

I don't know how many of Stajan's assists are with Iginla, Bourque or with other players but I do get the impression that as a secondary scorer he hasn't depended on the output of the team's best to generate points for himself. I've seen a few of his assists where he was huge in generating the play that got the goal. It's not like he's tacking on second assists from the top players on the team. I don't like that he isn't scoring goals and I do think it reduces his value but he has been contributing and is worth keeping on the top two lines.

I find it silly to claim that he's eating up PP time, at 2 min a game that puts him 10th on the roster. I don't think that there are many players on this team that currently deserve power play time, Stajan is at least producing.

Lastly about the comment involving his 55 point pace, it's a poor argument to stand on. Most teams don't have the luxury of employing 3 first line players that can do better than that pace, even Pittsburgh looks like they will only have 3 60+ point players at the end of the season, only one of them being on the first line (crosby). The distinction isn't that first line players on last place teams are generating 55 points, it's that their best players are generating that pace, which Stajan is not on this team, he isn't even in the top 5.

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12-18-2010, 08:52 AM
  #43
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1g - ten 1st assists - six 2nd assists

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play.../scoring/2011/

He has less second assists then I expected. This puts him on pace for 3g - 29 1st assists - 18 2nd assists

Salary comparables (+- 500k) and totals this season:
Guys with less than 20 games played left out
Code:
Krejci (3.75)       23gms - 5g - 9 - 6
Filppula (3.0)      31gms - 7g - 3 - 6
Sharp (3.9)         33gms - 18g - 7 - 7
Pavelski (4.0)      32gms - 9g - 9 - 5
Cullen (3.5)         27gms - 6g - 7 - 6
Stoll (3.6)           29gms - 8g - 8 - 2
Roy (4.0)            32gms - 10g - 17 - 5
Hecht (3.525)      32gms - 3g - 5 - 0
Brassard (3.2)     31gms - 7g - 9 - 4
Vermette (3.75)   31gms - 9g - 5 - 4
Umberger ( 3.75)  31gms - 8g - 7 - 7
Weiss (3.1)         29gms - 8g - 6 - 4
Sullivan (3.75)     31gms - 9g - 3 - 7
Steen (3.3625)    30gms - 9g - 4 - 7
Average: 8g - 7 1st assists - 5 2nd assists
Salary: 3.587M
Games played: 30 games

Those averages don't really mean a whole lot but if you use them it has Stajan as below average for his salary, which makes sense considering he only has 1 goal.

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Old
12-18-2010, 12:28 PM
  #44
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Agree with everyone here so far.

Phaneuf going made me so happy that I would have taken a bag of dog **** as return. But in reality Sutter could have gotten so much more, and every flames fan knows it.

Then he signs a softy mediocre player in Stajan to a crap contract and handcuffs himself once again with another bad signing. Ugh! What a joke.

Bottom line is that this writer is a narcissistic ****** from TO, who would have said the leafs won the trade regardless of the return.

Nobody won this trade because sutter got underpayed, then he overpayed (stajan) and Burke got stuck with the most overatted dman in the game. Lose-lose, and the evidence is shown in the standings.
lol..bag of dog ****..

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12-18-2010, 09:36 PM
  #45
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read all my posts... I addressed his goals...

or how about your boy Whitney... he is on pace for 0 goals... doesn't make his asissts less impressive
I think you missed my point, I was just trying to show how you can't try and find a players market value by looking at just one stat. It just doesn't make sense and is not accurate, and that's what you did when you brought up that Stajan was making the least of people who had 45+ assists. You were comparing his salary to players who are not even close to the same abilities as him and making it sound like he is a bargain.

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12-18-2010, 10:08 PM
  #46
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I think you missed my point, I was just trying to show how you can't try and find a players market value by looking at just one stat. It just doesn't make sense and is not accurate, and that's what you did when you brought up that Stajan was making the least of people who had 45+ assists. You were comparing his salary to players who are not even close to the same abilities as him and making it sound like he is a bargain.
i wasn't guaging his market value by one stat... it was simply 1 example... but 50+ point players making 3.5 million is market value... whether its 5 goals and 45 assists or the 15 goals and 35+ assists he usually puts up

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12-19-2010, 03:37 AM
  #47
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Overnight Stajan doubled his goals over the season. How many 3-4 million cap hit players can do that 30 games into the season?

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12-19-2010, 07:30 AM
  #48
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Overnight Stajan doubled his goals over the season. How many 3-4 million cap hit players can do that 30 games into the season?
seriously? i really thought you were better than the other morons on here and could see beyond the goals for a pass first centerman

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12-19-2010, 11:50 AM
  #49
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i wasn't guaging his market value by one stat... it was simply 1 example... but 50+ point players making 3.5 million is market value... whether its 5 goals and 45 assists or the 15 goals and 35+ assists he usually puts up
Okay and to say he is at market value for 3.5 is fine. My only issue was this...

Quote:
or how about this... of the players with 45+ assists last season not one player is making less than Stajan... in fact only 2 of them are making under $5 million and none under $4.5 million
...you can't tell me you weren't trying to use his projected assists to show that he is actually on a deal of a contract. You clearly put him on the level of these other 45+ assist players and then compare their salaries to make a point, he isn't on any of those players levels, therefore the point you tried to make there just isn't accurate.

You can certainly make arguements that 3.5 million for Stajan is market value based on other players at his level.

Again, just to be clear, my issue is that you directly compared Stajans salary against Lecavliers, Kopitars, Koivus, Perrys, and Getzlafs to try and show that Stajan makes less then other players of equal talents as Stajan. Stajan, simply put, is not as good as those players.

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12-19-2010, 06:50 PM
  #50
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Stajan's production is one of the main reasons we are doing so poorly? that is the dumbest **** I have heard in a long time
To say his play is not contributing to the reason the Flames are at the bottom of the league is THE dumbest thing I have heard in a long time.

Even the moron behind the bench knows enough to bench him

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