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Old
11-29-2010, 08:28 PM
  #51
Prussian_Blue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pelts35.com View Post
While there is nothing on the Nailers website, there is an article in this weekend's NY Times that references the affiliation...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/28/sp...8aviators.html

"The Aviators recently became an official rung on the ladder to the N.H.L. The Federal Hockey League is an independent minor league, roughly equivalent to Class A in baseball. The Aviators became an affiliate of the Wheeling Nailers of the ECHL"
If the Aviators are getting press in the Times, no matter how few column inches they're getting, that's absolutely a plus for the Federal League. It'd be nice if they had an actual 3-4000 seat arena to play in, instead of just a community ice rink with barely 1000 seats.

If/when the AAHL goes belly-up, if the Federal League can build a strong NY franchise and bring the Troy Bruins in, they might be on to something.

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11-30-2010, 02:43 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Prussian_Blue View Post
If the Aviators are getting press in the Times, no matter how few column inches they're getting, that's absolutely a plus for the Federal League. It'd be nice if they had an actual 3-4000 seat arena to play in, instead of just a community ice rink with barely 1000 seats.

If/when the AAHL goes belly-up, if the Federal League can build a strong NY franchise and bring the Troy Bruins in, they might be on to something.
Any chance that Brooklyn could be a potential AHL or ECHL city once the Nets arena is built?

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11-30-2010, 03:14 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by pelts35.com View Post
Any chance that Brooklyn could be a potential AHL or ECHL city once the Nets arena is built?
I would think that both leagues would be interested in a Brooklyn franchise, absolutely.

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11-30-2010, 10:06 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prussian_Blue View Post
If the Aviators are getting press in the Times, no matter how few column inches they're getting, that's absolutely a plus for the Federal League. It'd be nice if they had an actual 3-4000 seat arena to play in, instead of just a community ice rink with barely 1000 seats.

If/when the AAHL goes belly-up, if the Federal League can build a strong NY franchise and bring the Troy Bruins in, they might be on to something.
Not the 3-4k you referenced but not "barely 1000" either. It seats roughly 2,500.

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12-01-2010, 04:59 PM
  #55
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Wheeling (ECHL) just signed an affiliation agreement w/ the Aviators....

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12-01-2010, 06:27 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRDANHUTCH View Post
Wheeling (ECHL) just signed an affiliation agreement w/ the Aviators....
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/28/sp...html?src=twrhp

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12-01-2010, 09:50 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
also from the Wheeling media press release

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Old
12-02-2010, 01:31 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRDANHUTCH View Post
also from the Wheeling media press release
Butcha didn't post a link.

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12-02-2010, 12:51 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
Butcha didn't post a link.
because I'm not running the risk of posting a full article

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Old
12-03-2010, 03:38 AM
  #60
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FHL- sucks!
I don't know why we have to keep leagues that has no money...
No money in the teams. No good infrastructure. No good attendence.

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12-03-2010, 05:25 PM
  #61
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A whopping crowd of 235 in Akwesasne last night. I'm predicting a January/February league-wide fold.

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12-04-2010, 10:40 AM
  #62
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A massive throng of 389 showed up in 1000 Islands last night, and a gigantic 347 packed into the rink in New York. Yup, the FHL is "looking ok!"

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Old
12-08-2010, 06:11 AM
  #63
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I believe that one of the best things that the FHL could do (possibly along with the SPHL and AAHL) would be to go the route of the Great Lakes Hockey League and establish themselves as "Senior Elite" level leagues. This type of move would help the teams to stay afloat in the types of markets they are currently in, if done properly. The biggest problem I could see from this type of move would be the argument that "Semi-Pro" draws better. Yeah it may draw better but when the gate is walking out the locker room in the form of paychecks you can't sustain a team very long. Now if you have 4 Senior Elite leagues where the champion of each league would play for an "Elite National Championship" then you could create regional/league pride in the fans. Just my two cents, take them for what they're worth.

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12-08-2010, 09:48 PM
  #64
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I can't speak for the AAHL and FHL as I'm not as familiar with the fan bases in those areas but in the South fans given a choice between a Pro league a Senior Elite amateur league, a moniker they are not familiar with, would choose the Pro league just because of the prestige of being professional and not amateur. This would likely hold true even if the level of play was similar or even slightly better in the Senior Elite league.

There would be fans would notice the difference and would attend either just the Senior Elite league games or both.

Now this idea would never happen since most of the guys in the Great Lakes League are locals. You simply aren't going to get that level of play in most of the country. Not yet at least.

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Old
12-09-2010, 06:02 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TopCityAirCapHockey View Post
I believe that one of the best things that the FHL could do (possibly along with the SPHL and AAHL) would be to go the route of the Great Lakes Hockey League and establish themselves as "Senior Elite" level leagues. This type of move would help the teams to stay afloat in the types of markets they are currently in, if done properly. The biggest problem I could see from this type of move would be the argument that "Semi-Pro" draws better. Yeah it may draw better but when the gate is walking out the locker room in the form of paychecks you can't sustain a team very long. Now if you have 4 Senior Elite leagues where the champion of each league would play for an "Elite National Championship" then you could create regional/league pride in the fans. Just my two cents, take them for what they're worth.
Right, because each of these markets has hockey players of that quality just walking around? I'll give you a hint, ONE and only one FHL market has players like that that are perhaps also USA Hockey members: New York. Rome doesn't, Broome County doesn't, 1000 Islands DEFINITELY doesn't. This isn't like amateur baseball in 1920. Why can't you people understand that that kind of a model WILL NOT BE POSSIBLE?

Even more notable: 122 showed up in Rome last night. How long before we see our first sub-100 crowd???

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Old
12-17-2010, 08:42 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyEddie20 View Post
Right, because each of these markets has hockey players of that quality just walking around? I'll give you a hint, ONE and only one FHL market has players like that that are perhaps also USA Hockey members: New York. Rome doesn't, Broome County doesn't, 1000 Islands DEFINITELY doesn't. This isn't like amateur baseball in 1920. Why can't you people understand that that kind of a model WILL NOT BE POSSIBLE?

Even more notable: 122 showed up in Rome last night. How long before we see our first sub-100 crowd???
It wouldn't surprise me if the teams are 'padding' the attendance figures a little. I am sure that a sub-100 crowd has already happened.

My question to you and everyone else in this forum is could a Single A league similar to the SPHL survive in the Northeast? Danbury has proven it could support a club, Troy has a decent rink, even Hyannis, MA has a new facility.

Also, your reference to my post about he league doing 'ok'; just to clarify, I was comparing it to other flopper leagues of the Single 'A' proclaimed stature (NEPHL, EPHL, MAHL, and those other sad examples of 'pro' hockey).

I can now see the novelty wearing off of the FHL (minus Danbury). Still haven't heard any talk of players not getting paid money, that is usually the first sign of a league in trouble.

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Old
12-17-2010, 11:21 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by billycanuck View Post
My question to you and everyone else in this forum is could a Single A league similar to the SPHL survive in the Northeast? Danbury has proven it could support a club, Troy has a decent rink, even Hyannis, MA has a new facility.
I believe that a "bus" league built around Danbury, Brooklyn, and Troy (OH) could work, with Danbury and Troy being the geographical limits. Find three more markets within that geographical footprint, and make sure that the markets all have solid financing and a real medium-to-long-term business plan, and it could work.

Would need a minimum 60-game schedule (balanced; each team plays all others 12 times in a season) for maximum home revenue generation without overexposure; these "pro" leagues that want to play 40-game schedules are shooting themselves in the foot.

Get your six markets, and build each of them on solid foundations before even considering expansion. Roster limit 23 players (13 forwards, seven defensemen, three goalies) max, salary cap < $10K/week (players average about $400/week).

The only real issue I see is that most markets in that footprint, that have a suitable facility, are already host to a minor pro or NCAA club.

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Old
12-17-2010, 03:30 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prussian_Blue View Post
I believe that a "bus" league built around Danbury, Brooklyn, and Troy (OH) could work, with Danbury and Troy being the geographical limits. Find three more markets within that geographical footprint, and make sure that the markets all have solid financing and a real medium-to-long-term business plan, and it could work.

Would need a minimum 60-game schedule (balanced; each team plays all others 12 times in a season) for maximum home revenue generation without overexposure; these "pro" leagues that want to play 40-game schedules are shooting themselves in the foot.

Get your six markets, and build each of them on solid foundations before even considering expansion. Roster limit 23 players (13 forwards, seven defensemen, three goalies) max, salary cap < $10K/week (players average about $400/week).

The only real issue I see is that most markets in that footprint, that have a suitable facility, are already host to a minor pro or NCAA club.
Most teams cannot survive on payroll that is $3-4k/week, let alone anything approaching $10k..

In many/most/all minor league baseball teams, nearly all the baseball operations (ie: PLAYER SALARIES) are paid for by the MLB affiliate.. not so in hockey.. That is why the history of minor league hockey is littered with the carcasses of folded teams..

The problem is some business people see the success stories, like in Fort Wayne, or Danbury, or wherever - and think they can duplicate what those teams have done..

These people then open up teams without understanding what they're doing.. the first thing they realize is "Oh. I'll need a venue!" - so then they go find one.. they need a lease to show to the league office.. the venue knows that.. and in the negotiation, the team owners often give up concessions.. and guess what? The #2 revenue opportunity for your team just turned to $0.

But worse than that, the opportunity to package together a ticket/concession style family pack just became harder..

Speaking of tickets ... minor league sports team owners don't get it, to my amazement, that ticket sales are the life blood of the team.. They're already scared they're going to lose a quarter of a million dollars they haven't got, so they don't want to spend money on front office payroll..

Free advice to prospective team owners: The most important person in that front office isn't the owner, or the coach, it's whomever's in charge of SELLING TICKETS.

But instead of ticket sales, the owner thinks that getting money from the business community is what matters.. but then the companies realize there won't be people in the stands, so the businesses don't get involved.. so while the team owner was counting on $50,000 or $100,000 in corporate money, they're lucky to get $5,000... and all the time they spent trying to build up support in the business community was time wasted, and your ticket sales are a fifth of what they could have been had you focused on that instead..

So now you're in year one and your number 1 revenue stream (tickets) is at 20% of what it could have been, number 2 (concessions) is at $0 because the venue took it all, and number 3 (corporate) at 5-10% of what you were counting on - and worse because your attendance is low you won't be able to convince businesses to become sponsors in year two..

And in 80% of the cases, there is no year two.. in some cases, year one isn't completed.

Anyway..

As for Troy, my personal opinion (and it's a GUESS) is they'll return to junior hockey next year, so don't go drawing up any pro league plans that involve them.

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Old
12-17-2010, 06:41 PM
  #69
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Good Lord, Jeff... how does any minor-league hockey operation make it, then?

You want to limit a 20-man payroll to $4000 a week, paying each player $200 a week on average... you're going to get exactly what you pay for, which is the guy who scored a hat trick in his beer league game last week.

You make great points about revenue streams, but the point I was making in my post was that the successful minor league anticipates those issues and makes sure they don't happen.

If that means having a league on the Central League model, where most if not all of the teams and venues are actually owned by the league, then that's what it takes. And if a league can't be a success while operating under any other model, then it should probably nor bother.

I chose Brooklyn, Troy and Danbury as the foundation stones for a potential Northeast League because those three organizations seem to "get it" as far as addressing the issues you raise. All I was really trying to say was that a potential Northeast League would have to attract at least three more ownership groups who similarly "get it" in order to be viable.

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12-17-2010, 07:38 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Prussian_Blue View Post
Good Lord, Jeff... how does any minor-league hockey operation make it, then?
Most don't.

They either fold or sell to someone else who thinks they can turn it into a money-maker.

Quote:
You want to limit a 20-man payroll to $4000 a week, paying each player $200 a week on average... you're going to get exactly what you pay for, which is the guy who scored a hat trick in his beer league game last week.
Well most teams don't carry 20 guys.. but yes, they each get a few hundred bucks a week plus housing..

Quote:
If that means having a league on the Central League model, where most if not all of the teams and venues are actually owned by the league, then that's what it takes. And if a league can't be a success while operating under any other model, then it should probably nor bother.
Three teams made money in the CHL last year. (Rapid City, Missouri and Colorado.)

Four teams folded.

The CHL model is simple, from the league office's perspective:

1) Find cities who can issue a bond or raise a tax, or get some other way to get as much of the money as possible to build an arena. (The more that Global Entertainment can pass off to the tax-payers or others, the better)

2) Find someone who wants to be famous sports team owner to put a team in there, and sell them a franchise to collect a franchise fee.

3) Manage the arena. (Including concessions, of course.)

4) Shake your head as every few years the teams ownership group needs to be recycled.

Look, if these people can find ways to build $100 million dollar arenas, don't you think they can operate hockey teams with annual budgets between $1.5 and $2.5 million?

Of course they can. They just don't WANT to. The money (for Global) is in managing the building, not in running the hockey team. If the hockey team itself made money they'd do that too!


Quote:
I chose Brooklyn, Troy and Danbury as the foundation stones for a potential Northeast League because those three organizations seem to "get it" as far as addressing the issues you raise. All I was really trying to say was that a potential Northeast League would have to attract at least three more ownership groups who similarly "get it" in order to be viable.
There are absolutely some teams that get it. But more importantly than owners who get it, is a situation where the market is willing to make you the number one show in town.. overwhelming community support, whether inherited or generated, is the key to success in minor league hockey..

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Old
12-19-2010, 02:32 PM
  #71
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the bc barons have pacled up and left. friday game was cancelled and by saturday it was reported they were gone.

http://www.pressconnects.com/article...+of+Binghamton

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Old
12-19-2010, 04:09 PM
  #72
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"The team will no longer be playing out of Chenango Ice Rink," said Phil DeFranco, chief administrator of the FHL. "We just didn't have the attendance. We thought putting the team there was a good idea, but we found out having an AHL team (the Binghamton Senators) a few miles away was just a bad move."

Uhh, ya think?

Having only 75 paying fans for Johnny Bower Night on Wednesday pushed the local ownership group, which has lost tens of thousands of dollars in December alone, over the edge.

So where in Canada or New England will this team end up, only to fold again?

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Old
12-19-2010, 04:15 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by JeffNYI View Post
Most teams cannot survive on payroll that is $3-4k/week, let alone anything approaching $10k........

.
Great input. You have some experience in this field?

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12-19-2010, 06:41 PM
  #74
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Great input. You have some experience in this field?
I've been involved in professional hockey, professional motorsport and professional basketball.

One at the highest level in the world.. one at a developmental level.. and one at an (admitedly) joke level..

To me, the most important thing is I learned from each experience..

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Old
12-20-2010, 06:20 AM
  #75
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I've been involved in professional hockey, professional motorsport and professional basketball.

One at the highest level in the world.. one at a developmental level.. and one at an (admitedly) joke level..
Not to be too personal, but did you go to school for sports business?

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