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Tom Renney takes blame

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Old
12-21-2010, 06:30 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
the vast majority of those picks were Gordies, not Toms.
You are 100% correct, but the poster I was replying to was trying to infer that everything from the Jessimen pick all the way to the Redden signing were all part of Renney's tenure, and Slats willingness to allow his coach input into personal decisions. I agree with that to an extent.

If we are to blame Renney for the glaring mistakes made with personel choices (whether draft or signing), we should then in turn measure the successes by the same standard.

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12-21-2010, 06:35 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puckface NYR View Post
Yea wtf was that dude talking about.

Tom was basically head scout in 2003. Almost all those picks came after he became head coach and essentially had little to do with draft picks, due to the fact he was no longer dedicating his time to scouting.

All those were pretty much Gordie and co.

I don't hate renney but lets not give him credit to building a team that he really had very little hand in.
I wasn't giving him credit for building the team, I was actually giving him credit for leaving it intact when he left. None of the true core pieces were moved in a foolish attempt to make a token playoff run, as in the past.
Just like I said to Inferno, If the poster was going to demand "where are the Renney apologists now?" and go on to blame Renney for all player decisions from Jessiman to Redden, then I will gladly point out that the core of our team developed under Tom Renney.

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12-21-2010, 07:02 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by DubiDubiDoo View Post
I wasn't giving him credit for building the team, I was actually giving him credit for leaving it intact when he left. None of the true core pieces were moved in a foolish attempt to make a token playoff run, as in the past.

Just like I said to Inferno, If the poster was going to demand "where are the Renney apologists now?" and go on to blame Renney for all player decisions from Jessiman to Redden, then I will gladly point out that the core of our team developed under Tom Renney.
Renney also built up our entire off-season/youth program from scratch, with rookie camps et c.

If not for Renney, I am not so sure that guys like Callahan, Dubinsky and co even plays in the NHL today (seriously). At least not if they had been threated like the kids that we drafted before Renney came on board.

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12-21-2010, 08:26 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by SomE View Post
Brian Boyle BABY!!!
Exactly. 2003 draft is fixed. It is LAK that missed it out, not the Rangers. Renney is off the hook.

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12-21-2010, 10:31 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
Exactly. 2003 draft is fixed. It is LAK that missed it out, not the Rangers. Renney is off the hook.
Yup...poor LA had to settle for Dustin Borwn.

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12-21-2010, 11:29 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by jas View Post
Yup...poor LA had to settle for Dustin Borwn.
Out of 3 1st rounders (Tambellini, Boyle, Brown) in that draft... They are poor, really. Sorry, forgot about Brown.

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12-21-2010, 11:45 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DubiDubiDoo View Post
You are 100% correct, but the poster I was replying to was trying to infer that everything from the Jessimen pick all the way to the Redden signing were all part of Renney's tenure, and Slats willingness to allow his coach input into personal decisions. I agree with that to an extent.

If we are to blame Renney for the glaring mistakes made with personel choices (whether draft or signing), we should then in turn measure the successes by the same standard.
yeah...i'm not a Renney fan, i led the fire renney campaign on this board lol, but with that said you cant dump everything on his lap. i still think hes a mediocre coach at best with very little feel for moment to moment coaching on the bench. i dont think he gets the best out of his team, and i dont think his approach to hockey wins in the long term. but i do think he was a good transitional coach. a good coach to get us away from the failures of the past and move towards becoming a good solid playoff caliber team. he just wasnt the coach to get us beyond that hump, i truly believe the coach we have now is the guy to do that, but i think we need smarter management to get him the team capable of playing Tortorella hockey. (we're close, but while we do have the hard workers, we are still lacking the skill needed to play this style)

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12-21-2010, 12:48 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DubiDubiDoo View Post
HMMMM, you destroy him for the drafting of Jessimen and signing of Redden, are you then also willing to give him the credit for -
Dubinsky
Callahan
Anisimov
Staal
Stepan
Del Zotto
Grachev
Cherepanov
Sauer

Taking a shot on Girardi

Signing Avery and Roszival

That's 10 of our current Roster players right there...and with the exception of Gaborik (UFA) and Lundqvist (drafted 2000) that list up there is the heart and soul of our current team.


EDIT- Renney doesn't need Apologists, his successes here and the turnaround of the franchise from complete laughing stock to playoff team speaks for itself. While I dont think he's gods gift to coaching, he was much better than what we had for 10 yrs prior, and for the first time in a decade we had a coach leave with the franchise in a better position than where he found it.
Renney's probably not responsible for most of those examples. And we originally traded for Sean Avery.

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12-21-2010, 12:58 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
Where are you Renney apologists now? C'mon out. Heck we have a couple mods who still continue to praise him whenever he's brought up.
I've complained enough about 2003 already so I have nothing to add directly to the topic at hand, but I found the quote above to be interesting. Is it crazier/more rare for a mod to be wrong about something than a regular old poster? Is hockey knowledge a prerequisite to be a mod? Why is it worse for a mod to continue to praise Renney in this situation? I don't get it.

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12-21-2010, 02:56 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
yeah...i'm not a Renney fan, i led the fire renney campaign on this board lol, but with that said you cant dump everything on his lap. i still think hes a mediocre coach at best with very little feel for moment to moment coaching on the bench. i dont think he gets the best out of his team, and i dont think his approach to hockey wins in the long term. but i do think he was a good transitional coach. a good coach to get us away from the failures of the past and move towards becoming a good solid playoff caliber team. he just wasnt the coach to get us beyond that hump, i truly believe the coach we have now is the guy to do that, but i think we need smarter management to get him the team capable of playing Tortorella hockey. (we're close, but while we do have the hard workers, we are still lacking the skill needed to play this style)
I loved Renney for the exact reason you mentioned, he was a really good transitional coach, a guy that could come in, work with the younger guys, and ice a good defensive system resulting in a decent team. If he did anything here, it was end the insanity of the late 90's, early 2000's, where the garden became a place for washed up stars to die. Slats and Renney did a decent job of curbing the number of non productive old vets coming in as the younger players proved capable.

My dislike of Tortorella is all about personality, I find him to be abrasive and that whole fiasco when he benched Avery in the PO's, only to get suspended himself, really ticked me off. I do think he can win though, but like you mentioned, I don't think we have enough of the guys he needs to win his way with, thats why I thought Torts would have made more sense after we had a few more pieces. That being said, for as much as I think he can be a clown, he has impressed me this year with his demeanor and level head. It seems like he's starting to realize he doesn't need to be an ass to be an effective coach.

Even as a Renney lover, I can admit, it was time for a change and he had taken us as far as he could/would. And as much as I was a Torts skeptic, I will cheer for his success, because that means Ranger success...(but it doesn't mean I can't mock him in the process )

Long story short, the successes and failures of an organization are never one mans burden to bear, its an organizational effort, and the good news is the organization as a whole seems to be improving.

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12-21-2010, 03:21 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerFan10 View Post
Renney's probably not responsible for most of those examples. And we originally traded for Sean Avery.
Right, I agree with that, but I was replying to the poster who implied Redden was Renney's fault. If your gonna blame hime for things he only has a limited role in, you have to praise him for the things he probably has a limited role in as well.

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12-21-2010, 04:03 PM
  #37
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Jessiman was a risky pick, but there was a lot of upside there as well. Certainly a bad pick in hindsight, but there were a lot of issues that led to poor development as a player.

Was I surprised we picked Jessiman? Not really. What really surprised me was that we passed on Getzlaf and Parise to take Jessiman.

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12-21-2010, 04:34 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Jessiman was a risky pick, but there was a lot of upside there as well. Certainly a bad pick in hindsight, but there were a lot of issues that led to poor development as a player.

Was I surprised we picked Jessiman? Not really. What really surprised me was that we passed on Getzlaf and Parise to take Jessiman.
The biggest issue I have/had with the Jessiman pick was it was a boom or bust pick and the Rangers weren't in a position to make a boom or bust pick there. They needed to take a guy they were confident would contribute on the NHL level. If I recall, the knock on Parise seemed to be that he didn't have as high a ceiling as they felt Jessiman had. But they also felt Parise was the safer pick.

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12-21-2010, 04:39 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
The biggest issue I have/had with the Jessiman pick was it was a boom or bust pick and the Rangers weren't in a position to make a boom or bust pick there. They needed to take a guy they were confident would contribute on the NHL level. If I recall, the knock on Parise seemed to be that he didn't have as high a ceiling as they felt Jessiman had. But they also felt Parise was the safer pick.
Always go with the boom or bust types rather than the safer pick in the first round. Would you be satisfied with a potential 50 goal scorer who will take a year or two to make it if at all, or a 20 goal scorer who can step in right away? I pick the former.

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12-21-2010, 04:58 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by DatsyukSOGoal View Post
Always go with the boom or bust types rather than the safer pick in the first round. Would you be satisfied with a potential 50 goal scorer who will take a year or two to make it if at all, or a 20 goal scorer who can step in right away? I pick the former.
When you have a lousy farm system (look how many picks from 2000 - 2003 never played a game in the NHL, let alone for the Rangers), didn't have a first round pick in two of the previous three drafts, you take the guy who you can bank on scoring 20 — and I don't even care if he steps in immediately.

After Lee Falardeau, Mike Walsh, Marcus Jonasen, Shawn Collymore, Nathan Martz, Petr Preucil, Pontus Petterson, Rob Flynn, Joey Crabb and Kim Hirschovits I'd do back flips for someone to score 20 goals. That would be 16 more than all those combined scored. And 20 more than they ever scored for the Rangers.

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12-21-2010, 05:34 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
When you have a lousy farm system (look how many picks from 2000 - 2003 never played a game in the NHL, let alone for the Rangers), didn't have a first round pick in two of the previous three drafts, you take the guy who you can bank on scoring 20 and I don't even care if he steps in immediately.

After Lee Falardeau, Mike Walsh, Marcus Jonasen, Shawn Collymore, Nathan Martz, Petr Preucil, Pontus Petterson, Rob Flynn, Joey Crabb and Kim Hirschovits I'd do back flips for someone to score 20 goals. That would be 16 more than all those combined scored. And 20 more than they ever scored for the Rangers.
Man, is that depressing.

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12-21-2010, 05:41 PM
  #42
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Man, is that depressing.
Indeed.

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12-21-2010, 06:32 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
When you have a lousy farm system (look how many picks from 2000 - 2003 never played a game in the NHL, let alone for the Rangers), didn't have a first round pick in two of the previous three drafts, you take the guy who you can bank on scoring 20 and I don't even care if he steps in immediately.

After Lee Falardeau, Mike Walsh, Marcus Jonasen, Shawn Collymore, Nathan Martz, Petr Preucil, Pontus Petterson, Rob Flynn, Joey Crabb and Kim Hirschovits I'd do back flips for someone to score 20 goals. That would be 16 more than all those combined scored. And 20 more than they ever scored for the Rangers.
Crabb played for the Thrashers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDtlX8qnGek

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12-21-2010, 06:54 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
The biggest issue I have/had with the Jessiman pick was it was a boom or bust pick and the Rangers weren't in a position to make a boom or bust pick there. They needed to take a guy they were confident would contribute on the NHL level. If I recall, the knock on Parise seemed to be that he didn't have as high a ceiling as they felt Jessiman had. But they also felt Parise was the safer pick.
I certainly agree with you there. I just think people get caught up in this idea that the Rangers made some huge (no pun intended) reach for Jessiman, which wasn't necessarily the case. The guy had a lot of tools in a very big package, it's hard not to get blinded by that as a scout. The fact that he was a Rangers fan certainly gave it all a nice PR spin as well.

Had Parise and Getzlaf been taken, I think the pick would have made sense. However, it really put me at a loss for words when they took him ahead of both of them. I think they really wanted to "wow" the fan base, but you're right. They really needed a guy who would play in the NHL.

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12-21-2010, 06:59 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by DubiDubiDoo View Post
You are 100% correct, but the poster I was replying to was trying to infer that everything from the Jessimen pick all the way to the Redden signing were all part of Renney's tenure, and Slats willingness to allow his coach input into personal decisions. I agree with that to an extent.

If we are to blame Renney for the glaring mistakes made with personel choices (whether draft or signing), we should then in turn measure the successes by the same standard.
I wasn't, however recent evidence shows that Jessiman was his and it is my personal belief that the Redden signing has his influence as well and it's because of severals reasons that show Renney's signature. His reliance on veterans and his poor ability to use youth. Repeatedly the powerplay struggled and repeatedly the same vets would get all the time again and again and again until he was fired. Redden was an old vet UFA and the Ranger PP needed help. Redden was a slow calm demeanor which is right up Renney's alley. IMO, Renney looked at Redden as the perfect guy to teach the young defenders the Ranger's drafted.

You're right, we should measure him by the same standard and running out and making a huge list of players to give him credit for, which weren't his ideas as other's pointed out, isn't that standard. That's giving him credit for things he doesn't deserve. And if you want to give him credit for developing guys like Dubinsky, that's false too. Brandon's rookie year is the only FULL season he played under Renney and if it were up to Tom he'd still be trying to force Dubinsky into being a first line center for Marian Gaborik, stunting his development and limiting him as a player, because this team needs a #1 center rather than seeing where Brandon's talents lend him to be the best player, a power forward and a left wing, which is where he's now flourishing. That's what a real coach that can develop youth has the ability to do.

Under Renney top scoring defensman in Hartford are told that they need learn how to play defense and learn the defensive side of the game and players like Thomas Pock and Bobby Sanguinetti never make it to the NHL. Mean while when MDZ makes bad turn overs Sully tells him to forget about and get out there and try it again, in between periods Brian Leetch tells us that, doing that is EXACTLY what MDZ needs to do!

Do I need to touch on Renney's development of forwards? I wonder if Taylor Hall scores 52 goals in his first two seasons how much Renney will down play it or how much he'll say "this kid's really going to be something some day!". Barb Underhill worked for Bryan Boyle, why couldn't she work for Jarkko Immonen? He had everything you needed in a center except the speed. You can go on and on.

The truth about Renney is that he was fortunate to have Jagr and Henke and he road their coat tails. He looked to move on from them with Gomez and Drury but that duo wasn't all it was cracked up to be so he just simply no longer had to tools to get his job done and I believe he doesn't know what tools he really needs to do the job. Because guys like Redden are not the right tools and I believe that was his decision too because he kept calling for help on the PP point, he love vets, and he loved that slow even pace and Redden had experience there.

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12-21-2010, 07:29 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
I wasn't, however recent evidence shows that Jessiman was his and it is my personal belief that the Redden signing has his influence as well and it's because of severals reasons that show Renney's signature. His reliance on veterans and his poor ability to use youth. Repeatedly the powerplay struggled and repeatedly the same vets would get all the time again and again and again until he was fired. Redden was an old vet UFA and the Ranger PP needed help. Redden was a slow calm demeanor which is right up Renney's alley. IMO, Renney looked at Redden as the perfect guy to teach the young defenders the Ranger's drafted.

You're right, we should measure him by the same standard and running out and making a huge list of players to give him credit for, which weren't his ideas as other's pointed out, isn't that standard. That's giving him credit for things he doesn't deserve. And if you want to give him credit for developing guys like Dubinsky, that's false too. Brandon's rookie year is the only FULL season he played under Renney and if it were up to Tom he'd still be trying to force Dubinsky into being a first line center for Marian Gaborik, stunting his development and limiting him as a player, because this team needs a #1 center rather than seeing where Brandon's talents lend him to be the best player, a power forward and a left wing, which is where he's now flourishing. That's what a real coach that can develop youth has the ability to do.

Under Renney top scoring defensman in Hartford are told that they need learn how to play defense and learn the defensive side of the game and players like Thomas Pock and Bobby Sanguinetti never make it to the NHL. Mean while when MDZ makes bad turn overs Sully tells him to forget about and get out there and try it again, in between periods Brian Leetch tells us that, doing that is EXACTLY what MDZ needs to do!

Do I need to touch on Renney's development of forwards? I wonder if Taylor Hall scores 52 goals in his first two seasons how much Renney will down play it or how much he'll say "this kid's really going to be something some day!". Barb Underhill worked for Bryan Boyle, why couldn't she work for Jarkko Immonen? He had everything you needed in a center except the speed. You can go on and on.

The truth about Renney is that he was fortunate to have Jagr and Henke and he road their coat tails. He looked to move on from them with Gomez and Drury but that duo wasn't all it was cracked up to be so he just simply no longer had to tools to get his job done and I believe he doesn't know what tools he really needs to do the job. Because guys like Redden are not the right tools and I believe that was his decision too because he kept calling for help on the PP point, he love vets, and he loved that slow even pace and Redden had experience there.
If thats not what you were implying, than my bad. But its no better than to take the two worst things that happened in a guys tenure that was otherwise filled with success and point those two things out as the things he's responsible for. All I'm saying is if your gonna blame a guy for something, give him credit for the things he deserves too. You cant claim he has leverage with personel decisions, then try and ignore which guys came up and stuck under his reign, or who were positive additions like girardi.

I'm not going to try and refute alot of what you said, because thats your opinion of the situation, and obviously I have a different one, doesn't make either of us right or wrong though.

What I will say, is the results were a desireable one. The only facts that we can put out there was that he made the playoffs repeatedly, he passed along a team in better shape than he received it in, and the players that came up to the team while he was coach, are now considered our core players (Staal, Girardi, Cally, Dubinksy, Lundqvist).

Also, about Renney wanting Redden, it was completely obvious to anyone that watched the Rangers that what this team lacked was a power play QB, and the fact remains that it still does. We have no reason to speculate that Redden was the guy Renney wanted anymore than Slats wanted him. For all we know Renney wanted someone else, its all speculation to try and say otherwise to support either of our arguements. Of course once Redden was here everyone has to say this is the guy we wanted, and to honest, no matter whether he wanted Redden or not, he certainly didn't give him that ridiculous contract.


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12-21-2010, 10:54 PM
  #47
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Where are you Renney apologists now? C'mon out. Heck we have a couple mods who still continue to praise him whenever he's brought up.
We're still here. That he blew the Jessiman pick does absolutely nothing to change my opinion of him as an NHL coach. And why should it?

Also, watch out for Edmonton in a couple of years.

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12-22-2010, 08:47 AM
  #48
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Where are you Renney apologists now? C'mon out. Heck we have a couple mods who still continue to praise him whenever he's brought up.
I fail to see how the Jessiman pick does anything to diminish his tenure here as head coach.

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12-22-2010, 10:11 AM
  #49
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IHMO: Tom Renney was the right coach at the right time for this team, and gave us some good years of exciting hockey, and respectable playoff runs.

That said, I was in favor of the change to Tortorella as I felt the time had come for a different approach that could possibly lead us to the Conf Finals and beyond.

BUT...the hugh jessiman pick is an epic fail!!


Last edited by Blueshirt Special: 12-22-2010 at 10:12 AM. Reason: added info
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12-22-2010, 11:02 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by DubiDubiDoo View Post
If thats not what you were implying, than my bad. But its no better than to take the two worst things that happened in a guys tenure that was otherwise filled with success and point those two things out as the things he's responsible for. All I'm saying is if your gonna blame a guy for something, give him credit for the things he deserves too. You cant claim he has leverage with personel decisions, then try and ignore which guys came up and stuck under his reign, or who were positive additions like girardi.

I'm not going to try and refute alot of what you said, because thats your opinion of the situation, and obviously I have a different one, doesn't make either of us right or wrong though.

What I will say, is the results were a desireable one. The only facts that we can put out there was that he made the playoffs repeatedly, he passed along a team in better shape than he received it in, and the players that came up to the team while he was coach, are now considered our core players (Staal, Girardi, Cally, Dubinksy, Lundqvist).

Also, about Renney wanting Redden, it was completely obvious to anyone that watched the Rangers that what this team lacked was a power play QB, and the fact remains that it still does. We have no reason to speculate that Redden was the guy Renney wanted anymore than Slats wanted him. For all we know Renney wanted someone else, its all speculation to try and say otherwise to support either of our arguements. Of course once Redden was here everyone has to say this is the guy we wanted, and to honest, no matter whether he wanted Redden or not, he certainly didn't give him that ridiculous contract.
You're right we do have differing opinions and I can respect that. The Redden thing is completely my own suspected opinion and I have absolutely no proof of it what so ever. To that extent it's only my opinion based off of need for a PPQB, Redden's style seemed to fit Renney's game, his tendencies of the players he seemed to choose to play which we can even go back and see TOI totals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I fail to see how the Jessiman pick does anything to diminish his tenure here as head coach.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
We're still here. That he blew the Jessiman pick does absolutely nothing to change my opinion of him as an NHL coach. And why should it?

Also, watch out for Edmonton in a couple of years.
Oh you guys kill me. The Jessiman pick was so bad and it really hurt this organization. Set it back years even. Demonstrated Renney's lack competence to judge talent as well as his decision making process. The 2003 draft was like shooting fish in a barrel and the Rangers had such a high pick, it was a gold opportunity. Everyone used to chastise Sather for screwing up that pick, now its Renney's fault and it doesn't change your opinion of him?

IMO Edmonton and NYI are rebuilding through losing and that's the wrong way to rebuild. Neither team has quality veterans to teach those young players respect and a winning attitude. In the long run, that will hurt them and Renney will fail.

Look I don't work and NHL franchise but if you watch Oil Change on NHL network and Behind the Bench on MSG network which give you good looks into both coaches. If you've been watching both and following both teams, you can really pick up on HOW they make things happen. Renney can walk into a locker room and say "i want you guys to go out there and play hard" but if you've got 4 teenagers lead by a couple of over paid under performing veterans who have never won anything, no one has any incentive to play hard and there's no one to show them the way. To the contrary a coach that always challenges his players who chose to challenge the veterans on his team with more youth and other outside vets is rebuilding his team in a completely different way and I believe they'll succeed.

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