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Old
12-19-2010, 01:53 PM
  #26
StreakingRed
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Glencross has been a healthy scratch for 2 games, I'd sure as hell hope he isn't a happy camper right now. He deserved to be benched. He needs to step his game up and stop being inconsistant.

As far as next season, I really hope he's re-signed.

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12-20-2010, 02:54 AM
  #27
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Glencross has been a healthy scratch for 2 games, I'd sure as hell hope he isn't a happy camper right now. He deserved to be benched. He needs to step his game up and stop being inconsistant.

As far as next season, I really hope he's re-signed.
He's one of the guys I would all but guarantee are moved at the deadline; he has no pesky NMC or NTC, and he's the kind of player contenders love for the stretch. See Dominic Moore, John Madden, Ville Nieminen, Marcus Nilson etc. He gets us back a 2nd round pick. He should be moved if the situation does not improve RAPIDLY.

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12-20-2010, 06:36 PM
  #28
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Well sure Glenner has no NTC and NMC clauses. That said, just because a veteran has such a clause why would they not want to be moved to a team that is a contender...? If I were in Reggie's shoes for example I would jump at the chance to get out if the ship keeps sinking. What I am saying is it is a popular misconception that players with a NTC would rather miss the playoffs and stay.

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12-20-2010, 10:33 PM
  #29
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Well sure Glenner has no NTC and NMC clauses. That said, just because a veteran has such a clause why would they not want to be moved to a team that is a contender...? If I were in Reggie's shoes for example I would jump at the chance to get out if the ship keeps sinking. What I am saying is it is a popular misconception that players with a NTC would rather miss the playoffs and stay.
Regehr wanted to be here but I'm not so sure he does now. He has played fairly well this year a team wanting a shutdown top 4 to play 20mins + should really be taking a look at him.

Sutter has really handcuffed us a far as contracts go. Gio, Bo, Regehr, Iggy, Stajan and Bourque are all here for a long time. Other players like Hagman, Kotalik and Jokinen are not going anywhere until next year. I say we suck this year, pick up a top 5 pick and than suck the next year and sell Hags, Kotes and Joker at the deadline and load up on picks. If we are going to rebuild we need to do it the right way; and that means 5 years. Short term rebuilds really dont' work out. Look at teams that paoched RFA's and made big FA acquisitions (Edmonton, Toronto, NY and their FA's). This is a city that will support a long rebuild and that is the way it should be done.

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12-21-2010, 12:05 PM
  #30
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Regehr wanted to be here but I'm not so sure he does now. He has played fairly well this year a team wanting a shutdown top 4 to play 20mins + should really be taking a look at him.

Sutter has really handcuffed us a far as contracts go. Gio, Bo, Regehr, Iggy, Stajan and Bourque are all here for a long time. Other players like Hagman, Kotalik and Jokinen are not going anywhere until next year. I say we suck this year, pick up a top 5 pick and than suck the next year and sell Hags, Kotes and Joker at the deadline and load up on picks. If we are going to rebuild we need to do it the right way; and that means 5 years. Short term rebuilds really dont' work out. Look at teams that paoched RFA's and made big FA acquisitions (Edmonton, Toronto, NY and their FA's). This is a city that will support a long rebuild and that is the way it should be done.
wtf are you talking about? The Rangers never even went into a rebuild really... they kept just signing big name guys and are now burying them in the minors or trying to trade them off... the Oilers just finally commited to their rebuild... the Leafs are only 2 years into theirs... what about long rebuilds like the Panthers, Islanders, Thrashers... etc?... the kings have been rebuilding since Gretzky.. the Hawks took the better part of a decade to rebuild properly... the Caps rebuild was slow too... the Penguins had the quickest rebuild but a large part of that is when they were losing they got the 1st or 2nd overall pick and had 3 top 2 picks to build around

rebuilding might be the answer... but at the same time less half of rebuilding teams turn it around in 5 years to become a contender... and even if teams do turn it around like that, they can't afford to keep the team together

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12-21-2010, 12:32 PM
  #31
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wtf are you talking about? The Rangers never even went into a rebuild really... they kept just signing big name guys and are now burying them in the minors or trying to trade them off... the Oilers just finally commited to their rebuild... the Leafs are only 2 years into theirs... what about long rebuilds like the Panthers, Islanders, Thrashers... etc?... the kings have been rebuilding since Gretzky.. the Hawks took the better part of a decade to rebuild properly... the Caps rebuild was slow too... the Penguins had the quickest rebuild but a large part of that is when they were losing they got the 1st or 2nd overall pick and had 3 top 2 picks to build around

rebuilding might be the answer... but at the same time less half of rebuilding teams turn it around in 5 years to become a contender... and even if teams do turn it around like that, they can't afford to keep the team together
Nicely done. The problem with the Flames future is that prospects are questionable. Our first rounders never lived up to the hype, whether that's from our scouts or player development, we need to address our drafting and development. Ideally, I'd like to see Brent Sutter in Abbortsford; I think he can bring a winning attitute and expectation from the foundation of this hockey club.

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12-21-2010, 12:40 PM
  #32
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wtf are you talking about? The Rangers never even went into a rebuild really... they kept just signing big name guys and are now burying them in the minors or trying to trade them off... the Oilers just finally commited to their rebuild... the Leafs are only 2 years into theirs... what about long rebuilds like the Panthers, Islanders, Thrashers... etc?... the kings have been rebuilding since Gretzky.. the Hawks took the better part of a decade to rebuild properly... the Caps rebuild was slow too... the Penguins had the quickest rebuild but a large part of that is when they were losing they got the 1st or 2nd overall pick and had 3 top 2 picks to build around

rebuilding might be the answer... but at the same time less half of rebuilding teams turn it around in 5 years to become a contender... and even if teams do turn it around like that, they can't afford to keep the team together
This is a good post but ever since the lock out its shown you don't need those first overall picks to become contenders, you need to keep your picks and develop your players. I think Calgary has been one of the worst in drafting and developing these players. Teams such as Vancouver, Boston and Dallas never went through times when they were bottom feeders but are looking really good this year. When you look at their roster they have up to four players that were drafted within the last 7 years that are roster players.

Dallas has Neal, Benn, Erickson
Boston has Lucic, Kreiji, Bergeron
Vancouver has Kesler, Raymond
Calgary has Backlund

Half these players are 2nd rounders a pick Sutter seems to have no problem trading away every season. I guess in saying this Calgary's rebuild will take a while, but the most important area is scouting and developing players that needs a major change

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12-21-2010, 12:58 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by FLAMES666 View Post
This is a good post but ever since the lock out its shown you don't need those first overall picks to become contenders, you need to keep your picks and develop your players. I think Calgary has been one of the worst in drafting and developing these players. Teams such as Vancouver, Boston and Dallas never went through times when they were bottom feeders but are looking really good this year. When you look at their roster they have up to four players that were drafted within the last 7 years that are roster players.

Dallas has Neal, Benn, Erickson
Boston has Lucic, Kreiji, Bergeron
Vancouver has Kesler, Raymond
Calgary has Backlund

Half these players are 2nd rounders a pick Sutter seems to have no problem trading away every season. I guess in saying this Calgary's rebuild will take a while, but the most important area is scouting and developing players that needs a major change
Kesler, Bergeron and Erickson were drafted before the lockout so they don't fit in since you were talking post-lockout... and Benn was a lucky 5th round pick... and Pardy while not am impact player was drafted in 2004 so he would fit...

so what you mean to say is its Benn/Neal vs. Raymond vs. Krejci/Lucic vs. Backlund/Pardy

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12-21-2010, 01:41 PM
  #34
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Kesler, Bergeron and Erickson were drafted before the lockout so they don't fit in since you were talking post-lockout... and Benn was a lucky 5th round pick... and Pardy while not am impact player was drafted in 2004 so he would fit...

so what you mean to say is its Benn/Neal vs. Raymond vs. Krejci/Lucic vs. Backlund/Pardy
Almost every team has a player or two from the first round, and a lot have developed solid players from the second. Compare that to Pardy/Backlund is horrible development, and pardy is not even a regular in the line up. Calgary has chosen to buy theirs or trade theirs which doesn't work, if they spent more time developing their picks they would be in a way better situation today.

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12-21-2010, 04:44 PM
  #35
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Almost every team has a player or two from the first round, and a lot have developed solid players from the second. Compare that to Pardy/Backlund is horrible development, and pardy is not even a regular in the line up. Calgary has chosen to buy theirs or trade theirs which doesn't work, if they spent more time developing their picks they would be in a way better situation today.
Pardy I dont think has missed a game since becoming healthy... i have never been a fan of his but he is playing pretty well

as for developing picks, it doesnt do any good if you dont have a good scouting staff

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12-21-2010, 05:22 PM
  #36
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Pardy I dont think has missed a game since becoming healthy... i have never been a fan of his but he is playing pretty well

as for developing picks, it doesnt do any good if you dont have a good scouting staff
I know said that in my OP, seems to be the biggest problem in this organization since i can remember. Now with the Cap its a very important aspect that the Flames have not addressed.

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12-21-2010, 05:38 PM
  #37
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All I know is that Oilnation was very P***** that Klowe didn't sign him when he was sitting around waiting for the Oil to make him an offer. People here are still bitter about losing GlenX. He's a great bottom six guy. I think they are expecting him to be more than that and therein lies the problem.

The guy hits, kills penalties, is fast, scores, fights and is a great agitator. I don't really get why he's the Sutter whipping boy. Good luck re-signing a guy after he gets treated like that.

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12-21-2010, 05:40 PM
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All I know is that Oilnation was very P***** that Klowe didn't sign him when he was sitting around waiting for the Oil to make him an offer. People here are still bitter about losing GlenX. He's a great bottom six guy. I think they are expecting him to be more than that and therein lies the problem.

The guy hits, kills penalties, is fast, scores, fights and is a great agitator. I don't really get why he's the Sutter whipping boy. Good luck re-signing a guy after he gets treated like that.
Because he stopped scoring, and rather then kill penalties he was taking stupid penalties. I don't think Flames could afford him after this season anyway, probably get somewhere in the 2.5 million range. Seems like he could fetch a good return at the deadline to a cap stricken team like Chicago. But i know some fans want him to stay and resign.

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12-21-2010, 06:08 PM
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Because he stopped scoring, and rather then kill penalties he was taking stupid penalties. I don't think Flames could afford him after this season anyway, probably get somewhere in the 2.5 million range. Seems like he could fetch a good return at the deadline to a cap stricken team like Chicago. But i know some fans want him to stay and resign.
To me the goals you get from you bottom six are goals a coach shouldn't count on because that's why these guys are bottom six players. When you get them, they're great, but you don't really count on them keeping your team afloat. Having said that, it's frustrating as heck to see a guy who can put the puck in play poorly. We've had lots of those guys here for a lot of years. Thankfully most are gone now.

I agree he would fetch a decent return should he be traded at the deadline, which would make sense since he's an UFA next year.

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12-21-2010, 07:26 PM
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I know said that in my OP, seems to be the biggest problem in this organization since i can remember. Now with the Cap its a very important aspect that the Flames have not addressed.
except they have... people like to blame Sutter for the state of our prospects but they seem to forget we never had enough prospects to field an AHL team when he took over... and then he built our prospect pool by staying away from boom or bust type picks... once the farm team was stocked with bodies he started taking more chances with drafting... and those guys just haven't had the opportunity yet... Backlund is the first of these prospects... then Brodie... next will be Howse

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12-21-2010, 10:35 PM
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except they have... people like to blame Sutter for the state of our prospects but they seem to forget we never had enough prospects to field an AHL team when he took over... and then he built our prospect pool by staying away from boom or bust type picks... once the farm team was stocked with bodies he started taking more chances with drafting... and those guys just haven't had the opportunity yet... Backlund is the first of these prospects... then Brodie... next will be Howse
I completely disagree with Sutter taking chances. How is Howse and Brodie chances in the 3rd and 4th round. Backlund?? If Sutter takes chances he would have taken them last draft when he didn't have a pick till the third round instead he took the safe players from the WHL, he rarely picks European player, why not take a chance on Kabonov.

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12-21-2010, 11:52 PM
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I completely disagree with Sutter taking chances. How is Howse and Brodie chances in the 3rd and 4th round. Backlund?? If Sutter takes chances he would have taken them last draft when he didn't have a pick till the third round instead he took the safe players from the WHL, he rarely picks European player, why not take a chance on Kabonov.
how are Brodie and Howse chances? because he took higher reward guys instead of plugs that will undoubtedly make the NHL some day like Prust and Pardy... using the HF rating system he went with prospects that would likely have a 'D' after their rating... instead of guys that would have a 'B'

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12-22-2010, 12:21 AM
  #43
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except they have... people like to blame Sutter for the state of our prospects but they seem to forget we never had enough prospects to field an AHL team when he took over... and then he built our prospect pool by staying away from boom or bust type picks... once the farm team was stocked with bodies he started taking more chances with drafting... and those guys just haven't had the opportunity yet... Backlund is the first of these prospects... then Brodie... next will be Howse
While I agree some of his picks like Backlund, Wahl, Howse, Brodie have been more 'high ceiling' guys, I can never agree with the argument that you can't stock a farm system by drafting boom/bust picks. Why can't you have a bunch of really skilled, offensively gifted players in the AHL? Why do they all have to be Chucko/Pardy/Pelech type players? IE USELESS on the big stage.

Just explain why you need to draft so conservatively if you don't have prospects to begin with; because we still only have 5-7 legitimate prospects anyway, only now we've got a ton more warm bodies. Is that how it works?

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12-22-2010, 01:11 AM
  #44
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I don't buy the argument that Darryl drafted a bunch of 'safe' players because he needed to restock the farm. For one, if he needed players for the farm, why not just sign AHL talent and let them play. Besides, drafted players don't immediately report to the AHL anyway; they either remain in juniors for another two years, finish college, or go straight to the NHL. Saying Sutter drafted Chucko just so he could play in the AHL is not only incredibly stupid, but actually suggests an NHL general manager would draft players not to help the team he's trying to achieve success with, but rather for the AHL level. That's just retarded. I mean, if you're trying to flesh out a farm team, why simply draft players with little to no chance of making the NHL? Why not players who actually have chances to achieve something at the NHL level? Not only do you restock the farm, but also get players who have the potential to do more than just show leadership qualities.

Given that this was Darryl's first time being a GM, it's far more likely that he was simply sticking to what he knew. His early drafts, with a few exceptions, are full of those gritty, leadership guys that fit the 'Sutter' mold. It was only in 2007 that he began moving away from drafting those kind of players and starting getting players with actual talent. What we saw wasn't Sutter finally taking chances, but simply him maturing as a GM.

It's also why the 2010 draft saw him return to drafting 'safe' players. He knew he messed up by trading that 1st round pick only to have his team not make the playoffs and he likely figured he needed to produce picks that had as close as possible guarantees to making the NHL to salvage his mistake. Which just goes to show how stupid that man is since the post lockout NHL does not work that way.

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12-22-2010, 01:36 AM
  #45
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how are Brodie and Howse chances? because he took higher reward guys instead of plugs that will undoubtedly make the NHL some day like Prust and Pardy... using the HF rating system he went with prospects that would likely have a 'D' after their rating... instead of guys that would have a 'B'
So Sutter had to use 4-5 years of draft picks to build a farm. I don't even think that many of our picks are on the farm anymore, a lot are from trades. Doesn't the letter system mean they when they are ready for the NHL and the number mean how good they will be when they make it. Howse and Wahl are 6.5 C. Meaning they got a ways before making the NHL and when they do they will be average at best. Kabovov for example is 8 D, not close to making the show but if he does will be a top end talent. That is taking a risk.

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12-22-2010, 08:25 AM
  #46
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So Sutter had to use 4-5 years of draft picks to build a farm. I don't even think that many of our picks are on the farm anymore, a lot are from trades. Doesn't the letter system mean they when they are ready for the NHL and the number mean how good they will be when they make it. Howse and Wahl are 6.5 C. Meaning they got a ways before making the NHL and when they do they will be average at best. Kabovov for example is 8 D, not close to making the show but if he does will be a top end talent. That is taking a risk.
Just because someone at HF says that you believe verbatim.... have you watched Wahl or Howse play? Dynamic players and doing great in the stats dept.

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12-22-2010, 08:28 AM
  #47
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While I agree some of his picks like Backlund, Wahl, Howse, Brodie have been more 'high ceiling' guys, I can never agree with the argument that you can't stock a farm system by drafting boom/bust picks. Why can't you have a bunch of really skilled, offensively gifted players in the AHL? Why do they all have to be Chucko/Pardy/Pelech type players? IE USELESS on the big stage.

Just explain why you need to draft so conservatively if you don't have prospects to begin with; because we still only have 5-7 legitimate prospects anyway, only now we've got a ton more warm bodies. Is that how it works?
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Originally Posted by Some Other Flame View Post
I don't buy the argument that Darryl drafted a bunch of 'safe' players because he needed to restock the farm. For one, if he needed players for the farm, why not just sign AHL talent and let them play. Besides, drafted players don't immediately report to the AHL anyway; they either remain in juniors for another two years, finish college, or go straight to the NHL. Saying Sutter drafted Chucko just so he could play in the AHL is not only incredibly stupid, but actually suggests an NHL general manager would draft players not to help the team he's trying to achieve success with, but rather for the AHL level. That's just retarded. I mean, if you're trying to flesh out a farm team, why simply draft players with little to no chance of making the NHL? Why not players who actually have chances to achieve something at the NHL level? Not only do you restock the farm, but also get players who have the potential to do more than just show leadership qualities.

Given that this was Darryl's first time being a GM, it's far more likely that he was simply sticking to what he knew. His early drafts, with a few exceptions, are full of those gritty, leadership guys that fit the 'Sutter' mold. It was only in 2007 that he began moving away from drafting those kind of players and starting getting players with actual talent. What we saw wasn't Sutter finally taking chances, but simply him maturing as a GM.

It's also why the 2010 draft saw him return to drafting 'safe' players. He knew he messed up by trading that 1st round pick only to have his team not make the playoffs and he likely figured he needed to produce picks that had as close as possible guarantees to making the NHL to salvage his mistake. Which just goes to show how stupid that man is since the post lockout NHL does not work that way.
I completely agree. I've making this argument for a few years, but only to have Lunatik claim that Sutter's approach was to restock the system. I never understood this rationale because a GM's job is to restock the system with talent. Winning and losing in the AHL comes secondary to drafting and developing players with skill. But instead of taking skilled players / boom-or-bust prospects, Sutter took the safe route and drafted a lot of pluggers over the years.

His approach to the draft is similar to his approach with building a hockey team - focus on the short term and the long term will figure itself out.

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12-22-2010, 12:29 PM
  #48
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Just because someone at HF says that you believe verbatim.... have you watched Wahl or Howse play? Dynamic players and doing great in the stats dept.
Howse is in his 4th year of the WHL he better have good numbers, he has proved nothing to be NHL caliber and very bad defensively. Cameron put up huge stats in the OHL last season look how he is in the AHL. Wahl has also struggled this year although he could turn out to be a really good number 2 center. If you looked at the other posts we were using the ratings as an example never said i used it verbatim!


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12-26-2010, 11:03 AM
  #49
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Man, real sad day when he goes. I was really hoping we'd sign him in the offseason, and if Tanguay left or we couldn't sign a replacement, I'd be happy with him in the top 6

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12-26-2010, 11:06 AM
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Man, real sad day when he goes. I was really hoping we'd sign him in the offseason, and if Tanguay left or we couldn't sign a replacement, I'd be happy with him in the top 6
and that is why the Flames suck

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