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Old
12-22-2010, 07:40 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Deitell View Post
Very rarely are the heavies the guys throwing the cheap hits, they just don't have the mobility.
This is my thinking as well. The Heavies don't throw the BS hits, therefore, you dont need a Heavy in the line up to respond when we already have guys like Clifford, Simmonds, Mitchell, Green, Brown. PLUS those guys can all play the game. Westy really cant.

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12-22-2010, 07:43 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Josh Deitell View Post
Very rarely are the heavies the guys throwing the cheap hits, they just don't have the mobility.
Two seasons ago Artyukhin ran Doughty and put him out for a few. Same year Phaneuf squashed Kopitar with a late hit. No one really did anything. Did anyone take liberties agaisnt Calgary besides Ivanans who punched Nigel Dawes. Nope.

Last year's pre-season Matt Martin threw a late hit on Doughty and O'Donnell jumped in and got suspended. Did anyone besides a tough Sean O'Donnell do anything? Nope.

Malkin throws a late hit on Simmonds...Does anyone do anything? Nope.

You see the point....where was the rest of the Kings besides OD and Ivanans? Nowhere. Only the tough guys stepped up.

The Kings have put themselves in the position of having to dress an enforcer because there are too many soft or skiled guys that won't step up to the plate...Look at our defense today...Scuderi, DD, JJ, Martinez, Drewiske, Harrold....that was probably the softest defense iced by an NHL team all year. Lucky we played Colorado without McLeod, Koci and Stewart.

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12-22-2010, 07:47 PM
  #28
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Look what happened the other night between Phoenix and Pittsburgh. The video's in the hockey fights forum here. Pyatt got destroyed after the Coyotes started to stir things up. Then nothing happened the rest of the game. That's why we play a heavy. When one comes into the pile, picks out an opponent and beats their face in, other teams are done with their aggression.

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12-22-2010, 07:52 PM
  #29
Johnny Utah
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Yeah Taylor Pyatt got destroyed fighting Engelland who he had no business fighting...the only person you can blame is Tippet for not dressing Biznasty. Pyatt got knocked down hard. I don't want to see Clifford or Simmonds take a beating like that....ever...or fighting a guy they shouldn't have to.

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12-22-2010, 07:54 PM
  #30
Josh Deitell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Two seasons ago Artyukhin ran Doughty and put him out for a few. Same year Phaneuf squashed Kopitar with a late hit. No one really did anything. Did anyone take liberties agaisnt Calgary besides Ivanans who punched Nigel Dawes. Nope.

Last year's pre-season Matt Martin threw a late hit on Doughty and O'Donnell jumped in and got suspended. Did anyone besides a tough Sean O'Donnell do anything? Nope.

Malkin throws a late hit on Simmonds...Does anyone do anything? Nope.

You see the point....where was the rest of the Kings besides OD and Ivanans? Nowhere. Only the tough guys stepped up.

The Kings have put themselves in the position of having to dress an enforcer because there are too many soft or skiled guys that won't step up to the plate...Look at our defense today...Scuderi, DD, JJ, Martinez, Drewiske, Harrold....that was probably the softest defense iced by an NHL team all year. Lucky we played Colorado without McLeod, Koci and Stewart.
Problem is, the odds that one of our top players is going to be out at the same time as Westgarth is pretty slim. If they get run, it's out of Westy's hands at that point, unless he's going to jump off the bench, and that'll create more problems than it fixes. It's more of an issue with team toughness as a whole. Having a guy like Clifford is nice because he can produce offensively playing with skilled players but also has the grit to play a tough game and protect them. Guys like JJ, Simmonds, Brown, etc should be stepping up to defend their teammates. They shouldn't have to depend on a heavy. Once that starts happening, this will be a real team.

That, or our powerplay starts clicking well enough that teams are scared to take penalties against us (ala Detroit). There's more than one kind of deterrent.

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12-22-2010, 08:00 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Josh Deitell View Post
Problem is, the odds that one of our top players is going to be out at the same time as Westgarth is pretty slim. If they get run, it's out of Westy's hands at that point, unless he's going to jump off the bench, and that'll create more problems than it fixes. It's more of an issue with team toughness as a whole. Having a guy like Clifford is nice because he can produce offensively playing with skilled players but also has the grit to play a tough game and protect them. Guys like JJ, Simmonds, Brown, etc should be stepping up to defend their teammates. They shouldn't have to depend on a heavy. Once that starts happening, this will be a real team.

That, or our powerplay starts clicking well enough that teams are scared to take penalties against us (ala Detroit). There's more than one kind of deterrent.
Josh, you scare me with that last quote, reminded me of Andy Murray saying "our power play is our enforcer." That was embarrassing.

Brown was targeted by Hordichuk, O'Brien, and Bieska during the playoffs....they tried to take him off his game and he had no one to back him up. The Kings lack team toughness, which is the main issue, which is why it falls on Westy and Clifford...Simmonds is usually only good for a few fights a year and he can't defend everyone. Remember that scrum at the end of the one of the Vancouver games last season, luckily we had Greene and OD on the ice. All we did is sub out OD for Mitchell and Clifford for Clune...not like Stoll, Smyth, Brown, Zeus, Harrold, Johnson decided to play "meaner."

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12-22-2010, 08:12 PM
  #32
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This team has nobody that is going to take liberties outside of those that fight. Just because Marco Strum can skate well, doesn't mean he's going to take liberties.

As for the scripted comment, look no further than Westgarth v. Konopka for an example of a Kings HW fight that wasn't "scripted".

Take a look at the Sabres/Ducks game last night. Ducks go down big early, Blake boards/injures Kaleta. Why would a ***** like Blake do that? Because Buffalo is pathetic in the toughness department and Blake knows his teammates have his back. Sure as ****, Parros lays a beating on Weber who was way, way out of his league. At least Parros picked one of their bigger guys to fight but still, do you want to see Drewiske fighting HW's because the Kings are icing 4 lines that can score? As if the inclusion of Wesgarth is an automatic 2 goals less for LA and 2 more for the other team?
This is more or less my point exactly.....Blake made a run not Parros yet as retribution someone fought Parros???? Makes no sense what so ever.

On this same point...you think the fact that the "toughness" of the team had any impact in his split second decision to make the hit....and if so Kings mus have a tough team to cause Zeiler made a very similar hit vs Foote last year.

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12-22-2010, 08:14 PM
  #33
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The only thing I know for sure is that these guys are starting to step up for each other. Clifford has done more for this team than Ivanans did all of last season. The combination of these guys getting closer in the locker room and adding Clifford+Mitchell has turned things around.

Johnson, Clifford, Simmonds, Mitchell, Greene bring toughness to this team. Brown is a hitting machine. Is it enough? Maybe not yet, but it is day and night compared to last season IMO.

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12-22-2010, 08:15 PM
  #34
Josh Deitell
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Josh, you scare me with that last quote, reminded me of Andy Murray saying "our power play is our enforcer." That was embarrassing.

Brown was targeted by Hordichuk, O'Brien, and Bieska during the playoffs....they tried to take him off his game and he had no one to back him up. The Kings lack team toughness, which is the main issue, which is why it falls on Westy and Clifford...Simmonds is usually only good for a few fights a year and he can't defend everyone. Remember that scrum at the end of the one of the Vancouver games last season, luckily we had Greene and OD on the ice. All we did is sub out OD for Mitchell and Clifford for Clune...not like Stoll, Smyth, Brown, Zeus, Harrold, Johnson decided to play "meaner."
Notice, though, that Hordichuk and O'Brien aren't part of that franchise anymore. It's because guys like Tanner Glass, Rick Rypien, even Bieksa/Ballard/Kesler/Torres can drop the gloves when necessary, and they can all skate and handle the puck with some proficiency as well. Like I said, team toughness is the issue, one guy is not gonna fix the problem.

Brown is 6'0, 200 lbs and the captain of this team. He should not be letting 6'1, 211 lb Hordichuk and 6'0, 205 lb Bieksa get him off his game. At some point, the Kings need to stand up for themselves. I'd rather see Brownie take on Hordichuk and get the worse end of a fight than see Westgarth have to jump in and take care of it for him. Easy to say from the stands, I know, but still.

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12-22-2010, 08:19 PM
  #35
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Whoa, whoa Josh, I was agreeing until you said Brown should fight Hordichuk...he would get murdered...you want your captain to risk a concussion and broken nose so you can prove the Kings don't need Westgarth? I don't mind Brown fighting a non heavyweight who is upset at his hitting but fighting Hordichuk....jesus no.

I agree though, the Kings are standing up for each other more now than ever and acting tougher than they have in years but I want to see Justin Williams do more than jump on top of a pile while Jack Johnson gets attacked by 3 Blues...At least Doughty gets in there. Smyth, Brown, Kopi, Williams should all take a cue from that. Hell, even Crosby is fighting these days.

And until the team toughness to the point where the skill guys are playing gritty and the Kings have the right balance, Westgarth is a necesity. TM has been around for years, he knows this too.

Like you said how can we match up up today with Clifford, Simmonds (with Greene and Mitchell hurt) against Rypien (leave of absence), Bolduc, Glass, Torres, Alberts, Ballard, Bieska, Kesler...all guys who will play in the playoffs. We don't.

Are we getting better...yes? But in the playoffs a 4th line of Poni-Lewis-Richardson isn't going to cut it when Vancouver is playing Glass-Bolduc-Rypien/Volpatti or Parros-Chipchira-Voros or Mayers-Nichol-McLaren/McCarthy?


Last edited by Johnny Utah: 12-22-2010 at 08:27 PM.
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12-23-2010, 08:58 AM
  #36
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Personally I'm looking forward to the day LA can roll 4 lines that WILL score on you. To be able to eliminate the need to have Westie suiting up. If he develops further as a legitimate threat then that is terrific. At this juncture where his skill set is though he doesn't fit in if the TMu is looking to suit up 12 forwards that can score. The Kings have enough depth to now bury Westie and don't forget Parse is still on IR.

I fully understand the role that Westie fills and I respect the hell out of anyone that does it. I also agree with the comments that as a TEAM they have to becomes tougher, to stick up for and protect each other. That shouldn't have to come from just a couple of players, it's everyones responsibility to each other. That is being a teammate.

The game versus COL was an example of what happens when you roll 4 lines and with quick shifts. High tempo, energy and sustained pressure. Granted the make up of COL is a bit different than some other teams. Granted they may not take liberties that other teams/players may take. There is and always be there in hockey - someone will cross the line of what is and what isn't acceptable. When that happens as a team you answer.

I've always seen the ability to score goals and win games as the ultimate retribution. You cause harm to one of us, put us on the PP, or even 5on5 - we will score and we will win.

I am on the side that fighting is part of hockey and should always be part of the game. The instigator rule is one of the worse decisions ever implemented because it took away from the players the ability to police the game. Now that has/is done by the refs and Colin C. Let the players watch each other's back, then let Colin suspend said party for stupid weak ****. You bust open someone's head for a cheap shot and that will sink in further than a suspension.

As Clifford matures and improves I hope the Kings will have a player that allows them to skate him as all they need as a "protector-deterrent". I don't remember because it's been to long, but the Leafs teams of the 90's I think only skated Domi. He was a true MW and nobody stepped out of bounds against the Leafs. Even if they did have a HW on the team, Domi was the one that stepped up first.

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12-23-2010, 10:05 AM
  #37
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This is more or less my point exactly.....Blake made a run not Parros yet as retribution someone fought Parros???? Makes no sense what so ever.

On this same point...you think the fact that the "toughness" of the team had any impact in his split second decision to make the hit....and if so Kings mus have a tough team to cause Zeiler made a very similar hit vs Foote last year.
The Zeiler hit was two years ago I believe; regardelss, Zeiler's game is to hit while Blake's is not. Zeiler's previous syle, much like a Kaleta or Clutterbuck, is naturally going to lead to some boarding penalties. Also, that hit wa not made because the Kings were down by 3-4 goals like the Blake hit.

It wasn't retribution to fight Parros, it was the Ducks continuing to bully the wimpy Sabres after they went down by several goals. The argument isn't about retribution, it's about bringing a knife to a gun fight. The HW's are used much like atomic bombs...mostly a threat but if the other guy has one then you better have one as well. Buffalo had a hand grenade to throw at Anaheim's nuke.

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12-23-2010, 10:09 AM
  #38
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I hope in a year or 2, Simmonds and Clifford will have bulked up, so they can enforce the game like the bash brothers on the 3rd line. Plus by then, I really think the role of heavyweight enforcer will be all but gone. There are only about 15 or so in the league now and a majority are at the end of the careers I think

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12-23-2010, 12:23 PM
  #39
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I hope in a year or 2, Simmonds and Clifford will have bulked up, so they can enforce the game like the bash brothers on the 3rd line. Plus by then, I really think the role of heavyweight enforcer will be all but gone. There are only about 15 or so in the league now and a majority are at the end of the careers I think
The league has gone out of its way to eliminate fighting as much as possible. Cutting down the roster size early in the last decade had a huge impact as the pure enforcer was the first to go. Obviously, the instigator rule and the ramped up enforcement has had a huge impact as well as the under five-minute rule.

The pure HWs like Boogard and MacIntyre will eventually go the way of the dodo but as long as they are out there, I want to have one.

I watch a lot of Ducks games and Parros is actually a pretty effective 4th line player. I think Westgarth can match him skill wise eventually so I think the Kings are in a good position at the moment. Play Westgarth against the physical teams and then roll the 4 solid lines against teams that don't have a scary physical threat.

Clifford will never be a regular season enforcer while the HW-era is still going; however, as I've stated before, he is going to be nails in the playoffs. Look up and down the playoff rosters of every team last season, and I mean the guys who actually dressed, and I'm sure Clifford can handle any of them.

Not knocking Clune because he has balls that need to be carried in a wheelbarrow, but I'd much rather see Clifford taking on Rypien in last year's playoffs.

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12-23-2010, 05:43 PM
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The pure HWs like Boogard and MacIntyre will eventually go the way of the dodo but as long as they are out there, I want to have one.
This. I won't debate about Westy for each game, cause both not putting him in and putting him in have their advantages. But just for THIS GAME, against the Oil, I want him in. I'd hate to see Big Red fight the guy that put Ivanans out of CGY's lineup in the first game. That fight was freakin' scary. Clifford is picking up his game in all areas, and I'd hate to see him get leveled tonight.

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Not knocking Clune because he has balls that need to be carried in a wheelbarrow, but I'd much rather see Clifford taking on Rypien in last year's playoffs.

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12-23-2010, 05:49 PM
  #41
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Not knocking Clune because he has balls that need to be carried in a wheelbarrow,
Dammit BK...I hate when I am at work and we are all quietly working (sorta) and I just start laughing for no apparent reason,

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12-24-2010, 09:17 PM
  #42
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I am about as anti-enforcer as you can get, but even I would be ok with dressing Westgarth if Murray didn't play him so damn much. If we put him on the end of the bench and played him 3-4 minutes a game then I am alright with it. The problem is Murray plays these guys a ton, sometimes on higher lines (Ivanans with Handzus and Frolov, Ivanans with Kopitar)

I am sitting there on Sunday watching the Kings-Hawks game and the Kings are down 3-1 and ******* Westgarth is out there...WHY WHY WHY WHY??

I would still rather play like the Red Wings, which the Kings have done the past few games. The last 3 games Westgarth didn't play the Kings outscored their opponents 12-2 and are 3-0, including road wins in Detroit and Denver.

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12-24-2010, 10:05 PM
  #43
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I didn't like Westgarth not playing agaisnt the Oil...Clifford has to fight Peckham, but he could've ended up agaisnt a much bigger Stortini, Jacques, or Strudwick....Without Greene and Mitchell the Kings look a bit soft. The Oilers threw more hits, Stortini was doing some more talking than usual and even a whimp like Smid was running around.

A 4th line of Sturm-Lewis-Poni isn't exactly intimidating....

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12-24-2010, 10:34 PM
  #44
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A 4th line of Sturm-Lewis-Poni isn't exactly intimidating....
Yes but on a team that lacks high end guys on the top 3 lines they provide speed, energy, two way hockey and a bit of skill. This will probably be the Kings 4th line in the playoffs as well. There are plenty of teams in the NHL that ice a 4th line like that.

The Kings just don't have the talent in the top 9 to waste the 4th line with Westgarth.

Westgarth's (-7) is the worst on the team, and the only other regular forwards playing as a minus are Richardson, Lewis and Clifford and while I don't have time to check I would assume since all three spent a good chunk of their time with Westgarth they may be + players when they play without him. Clifford and Lewis have been much better players this season when they aren't on a line with Westgarth, much like Richardson was when he wasn't with Ivanans last year.

If the Kings had a couple of soft 45-50 goal scorers in the top 2 lines maybe you could afford to waste an entire line, but I just don't see it at this point. And I think with Westgarth being a scratch 3 of the past 4 games TM is starting to see that.

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12-24-2010, 11:19 PM
  #45
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The Predators haven't been dressing Belak, so he sat him agaisnt Nashville, Chicago has been playing Scott, so he played him there and Colorado has Stewart and McLeoud out and Koci has played sparringly....now we face the Ducks and Flyers who have very tough teams who always play there tough players.

I assume TM will play him there.

You are also missing the fact in your +/- analysis that Lewis, Richie have spent time on the 1st and 2nd line which helped there +/- and Clifford has moved up to the 3rd line which has helped this numbers too...so you can't blame Westgarth, it was the combination of all those guys playing together....some just got out of the - by playing with better players.

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12-24-2010, 11:21 PM
  #46
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By the way, fight fans can't stand Bruce Beaudreau for not dressing King most of the time but up front he still has Hendricks and Bradley and on the back end John Erskine plays tons of minutes....He has the luxury of having a few 30+ goal scorers like you said. The Kings don't have a John Erksine on the back end or a Sheldon Brookbank or a Douglas Murray or a Theo Peckham...another reason they have to dress Westy. We had a guy like that, his name was Sean O'Donnell and he's gone now.

Harrold, Drewiske, Doughty, Johnson, Scuderi and Martinez? That has to be the softest defense in the league. So not only can we barely clear anyone out in front of our own net, our forwards are getting pummeled down low...Clifford is becoming valuable because he is one of the few Kings besides Brown willing to go to the "hard" areas because of D man like this, which, we don't have either.

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12-25-2010, 11:01 AM
  #47
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I cringed a bit when Clifford fought Peckham. He can hold his own against anyone but when you give up 30 + pounds to a guy, the odds of getting hurt are exponentially higher. From personal experience, I hated fighting the bigger guys. The big ones will lean on you when you bring the fight close to eliminate their reach advantage and next thing you know you're struggling just to get your arms free while trying to avoid the short jabs. The main reason Westgarth didn't play is Murray didn't want to give up any more speed to the Oilers. If the Oilers were a slower team, Kevin plays but that is one vulnerable fourth line, especially on the right, with him in the lineup.

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12-25-2010, 11:07 AM
  #48
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By the way, fight fans can't stand Bruce Beaudreau for not dressing King most of the time but up front he still has Hendricks and Bradley and on the back end John Erskine plays tons of minutes....He has the luxury of having a few 30+ goal scorers like you said. The Kings don't have a John Erksine on the back end or a Sheldon Brookbank or a Douglas Murray or a Theo Peckham...another reason they have to dress Westy. We had a guy like that, his name was Sean O'Donnell and he's gone now.

Harrold, Drewiske, Doughty, Johnson, Scuderi and Martinez? That has to be the softest defense in the league. So not only can we barely clear anyone out in front of our own net, our forwards are getting pummeled down low...Clifford is becoming valuable because he is one of the few Kings besides Brown willing to go to the "hard" areas because of D man like this, which, we don't have either.
Brown does hold his own but I haven't seen Kopitar, Handzus, Poni, Simmonds get "pummeled" and Stoll, Williams, Lewis and Richardson more than hold their own. The only player that falls into your category is Smyth and he does a good enough job avoiding the corners because that is not where his game is at its best.

I think you are exaggerating to make a point. Just about every team that plays us comments after the game how hard and heavy we play and I am damn impressed by how our forwards both bring and take the contact down low.

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12-25-2010, 11:23 AM
  #49
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I said he should have played against Edmonton and I stick by that. Thankfully the score didn't get out of hand as Stortini was feeling pretty good after our toughest guy couldn't handle Peckham. With Brown targeting Hall and Eberle on seperate occasions, a blow-out would have produced some unfavorable results in the department of physicality for LA.

I do agree with Herby though in regards to playing time. Before the season, I was all for Westy playing and then sitting for most of the game. Then I'd double shift another forward in his place. What the Kings want to do, I believe, is have Westgarth continue developing into a guy who isn't going to hurt you if he plays in the 3rd. He has come a long way from when he first joined Manchester, much like Parros way back when, and even his biggest detractors have to admit that he has looked much better out on the ice over the past month.

That blueline comes out of nowhere sometimes though. Need to stop tripping over that.

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12-25-2010, 12:25 PM
  #50
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Now with Sturm on the team, playing Westgarth on a 4th line with Richardson and Poni doesnt scare me as much. Both of those guys bring it defensively and play simple games. Richardson just using his speed to generating chances, and Poni using his size to work the puck around, you wont have to worry about Westgarth not being able to tic tac toe the puck with them. A 4th line like that is good, as opposed to earlier in the season where the 4th line was exposed due to having 3 rookies on it. When needed late in games, you can simply double shift someone in Westy's spot and suddenly you have a 4th line that can roll with the top lines

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