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12-22-2010, 11:09 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I fail to see how the Jessiman pick does anything to diminish his tenure here as head coach.
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
We're still here. That he blew the Jessiman pick does absolutely nothing to change my opinion of him as an NHL coach. And why should it?

Also, watch out for Edmonton in a couple of years.
Take out Jagr, a deal execute by Slats and Henke, a player drafted by Slats (credited to Smith) and Renney's got bubkis of a record as a coach with the Rangers.

He doesn't make it through his second year without them.

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12-22-2010, 11:10 AM
  #52
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Oh you guys kill me. The Jessiman pick was so bad and it really hurt this organization. Set it back years even. Demonstrated Renney's lack competence to judge talent as well as his decision making process. The 2003 draft was like shooting fish in a barrel and the Rangers had such a high pick, it was a gold opportunity. Everyone used to chastise Sather for screwing up that pick, now its Renney's fault and it doesn't change your opinion of him?
Shows me he made a very bad pick at a very bad time. Does it change me opinion of him? Not as a coach it doesn't. Or as a man.

As a coach, he restored a level of respectability to this team. He added youth to the lineup and was a large part of ending a 7 year playoff drought. And he did it all with grace and class.

I'm not going to defend the Jessiman pick. I can't. In fact, if you look this thread I talk about why it was a mistake. That one mistake doesn't change feelings about Renney as a coach. And it certainly doesn't change me mind when I felt that a coaching change was going to right this ship.

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12-22-2010, 11:12 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
Take out Jagr, a deal execute by Slats and Henke, a player drafted by Slats (credited to Smith) and Renney's got bubkis of a record as a coach with the Rangers.
Why would you take out Jagr and Lundqvist? They were there. A coach needed talented players to win. Is that really news?

Take away Messier, Leetch, Richter and Graves and do the Rangers win the Cup in 94?

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12-22-2010, 11:12 AM
  #54
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Without Jagr, would the Rangers have been above the cap floor that year?

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12-22-2010, 11:24 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
Take out Jagr, a deal execute by Slats and Henke, a player drafted by Slats (credited to Smith) and Renney's got bubkis of a record as a coach with the Rangers.

He doesn't make it through his second year without them.
So it's Renney's fault that the team he was tasked with coaching was a collection of scrubs, has-beens, a great rookie goalie and Jagr (who people need to stop crediting to Sather, as if he pulled off some kind of slick move rather than being lucky enough to work for the NY Rangers who have no economic limitations and where European star players long to play)?

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12-22-2010, 11:27 AM
  #56
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Say what you will about Renney's coaching (I loved him), but if he did indeed have the say in the Jessiman pick I agree he set this team back.

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12-22-2010, 11:29 AM
  #57
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Its never one persons job to make a pick. There is input from a majority of people, especially with a 1st rounder. Renney may have liked Jessiman, but there were others who did as well. People need to let it go. Its in the past, you're all going to have an ulcer if we keep harping on it.

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12-22-2010, 12:25 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Shows me he made a very bad pick at a very bad time. Does it change me opinion of him? Not as a coach it doesn't. Or as a man.

As a coach, he restored a level of respectability to this team. He added youth to the lineup and was a large part of ending a 7 year playoff drought. And he did it all with grace and class.

I'm not going to defend the Jessiman pick. I can't. In fact, if you look this thread I talk about why it was a mistake. That one mistake doesn't change feelings about Renney as a coach. And it certainly doesn't change me mind when I felt that a coaching change was going to right this ship.
This guy was kinda important...
Jaromir Jagr # - RW
2005-06 NHL - Lester B. Pearson Award (Player of the Year selected by the NHLPA)
2005-06 NY Rangers 82games 54g 69a 123pts

Henrik Lundqvist #30 - G
2005-06 NY Rangers 30w 2.24gaa .922pct

With those two guys your goalie is Kevin Weeks and your top scorer is Micheal Nylander with 23 goals.

As far as adding youth to the lineup, everyone did after the lockout, no one played for a year so there was 2 years of rookies coming into the league. Every year after that, more veterans were added than youth and the reason is because we drafted poorly during his tenure which I'll post about later (need to get all the links). The team had to rely on vets because it had no farm system too because the "Director of Player Personnel" aka Tom Renney was terrible which was epitomized by the Hugh Jessiman pick. The organization then, with no farm, like it has now, which we can thank Gordie Clark for could do nothing but sign over priced UFAs which fed right into Sather's weakness.

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12-22-2010, 12:27 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
This guy was kinda important...
Jaromir Jagr # - RW
2005-06 NHL - Lester B. Pearson Award (Player of the Year selected by the NHLPA)
2005-06 NY Rangers 82games 54g 69a 123pts

Henrik Lundqvist #30 - G
2005-06 NY Rangers 30w 2.24gaa .922pct

With those two guys your goalie is Kevin Weeks and your top scorer is Micheal Nylander with 23 goals.

As far as adding youth to the lineup, everyone did after the lockout, no one played for a year so there was 2 years of rookies coming into the league. Every year after that, more veterans were added than youth and the reason is because we drafted poorly during his tenure which I'll post about later (need to get all the links). The team had to rely on vets because it had no farm system too because the "Director of Player Personnel" aka Tom Renney was terrible which was epitomized by the Hugh Jessiman pick. The organization then, with no farm, like it has now, which we can thank Gordie Clark for could do nothing but sign over priced UFAs which fed right into Sather's weakness.
But they did have those guys. Again, the need for talented players is hardly a revelation.

Really fail to see why this needs to be re-hashed.

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12-22-2010, 04:54 PM
  #60
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If one is to credit Renney with the development of the core of the young team that we have before us today (Girardi, Staal, Dubinsky, Callahan) then the ability of Tom Renney to assess a player's skillset himself as well as the ability to analyze and assess information provided to him to make informed decisions should be questioned. We can objectively look back at the Rangers drafting record to perform an analysis of Tom Renney.

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Renney began his tenure in the New York Rangers organization as Director of Player Personnel, where he oversaw all facets of the team's amateur scouting operation, while assisting with the professional scouting department. He was promoted to Vice President of Player Development on June 21, 2002. He was instrumental in establishing an off-season conditioning and skills camp for several Rangers prospects
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Renney was appointed the Rangers' head coach with twenty games left in the 200304 regular season,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Renney

As we know, 04-05 was the lockout and Renney's first full season as head coach was really 05-06 So we can all pretty much infer that he had a pretty large input on any thing amateur scouting related from when he was hired to when he was promoted to coach. Beyond that it would have probably been Maloney and Gordie Clark, certainly Clark after 2007.

Just being hired, 2002 really wouldn't have been his draft.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00007089.html
2002 - In Tom's mind 2002 produced nothing, maybe he just didn't like the 8th rounder that he drafted that he didn't choose.

2003 draft - His first real draft 10 picks, no NHLers. Most feel the 2nd rounder (Baranka) has all the skills to play but decides to stay over seas (maybe a better interview should of had been done).

The Purge of 2004 - After many years of not making the playoffs, the Rangers trade off their veterans, including Brian Leetch, for a series of prospects and picks. These prospects include Maxim Kondratiev, Jarkko Immonen, Josef Balej, Dave Liffiton, Dwight Helminen, and Rick Kozak. They all turn out to be busts. Who's advising the GM on what names to ask for? Who's in charge of developing these players?

Then there's RJ Umberger who either had personality issues in Hartford or the organization made the decision that he wasn't good enough to keep. How is this guy allowed to run a muck down there if it personality? Either way, he walked as a UFA after being acquired. If you asked me, I would have liked Columbus' 1st and 3rd in 2008. I'm still confused by it all.

2004 draft - After the great purge the cupboards are stocked with 13 picks including 2 first rounders and 4 second rounders. A top 6 goalie is a bust. Other first rounder (Korpikoski) struggles to develop under Renney, has difficulty finding ice when he's the coach and ends up getting dealt after he's fired because the new coach wants his own guys that fit his system. Of four 2nd round picks, we get one hit, with Dubinsky! Hooray! We also get a 4th round hit with Callahan!!! Double Hooray 13 picks two NHLers!!

All the Ranger's decisions aren't made by one guy and I'm not pinning this all on Tom. Certainly Maloney had a big to do in the decision process as well. However, one thing is for sure. When Renney moved out of his senior scout role and into his coaching role, Rangers drafting improved. 2003 and 2004 drafting and prospect acquisition was abysmal. Callahan and Dubinsky in 2004 was accuracy by volume. 2005 when everyone was scouting because there was nothing else to do, drafting improved.

Something else very important happened in 2005...
Quote:
RANGERS--Promoted Gordie Clark to head amateur scout
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...liamson&st=nyt

Then in 2007 he's promoted to the position Renney once held "Director of Player Personnel"...
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2946723
Now in 2009 We trade Scott Gomez and acquire prospects, they are Ryan McDonagh and Pavel Valentanko....IMO these prospect will turn out very different than those acquired in 2004. And there is little doubt that since 2007 when Clark assumed the role of of Director of Player personnel that drafting and prospect development has improved significantly, actually since being promoted to senior amateur scout in 2005, this has been the case.

We owe a lot to Gordie Clark for the young team we see before us, not Tom Renney.

I don't question Renney's character, his character is unquestionable. However I don't have any faith in his ability to assess a player at the highest level and hence lacks the ability to coach at that level as well.

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12-22-2010, 05:16 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
But they did have those guys. Again, the need for talented players is hardly a revelation.

Really fail to see why this needs to be re-hashed.
Agreed, you need talent in order to win, but there's players and then there's one of the greatest players to play the game who single handedly carried the team in 05-06 and that IMO has nothing to do with coaching what so ever that's just a simple gift that I consider to be lucky to have seen and enjoyed as a fan.

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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
So it's Renney's fault that the team he was tasked with coaching was a collection of scrubs, has-beens, a great rookie goalie and Jagr (who people need to stop crediting to Sather, as if he pulled off some kind of slick move rather than being lucky enough to work for the NY Rangers who have no economic limitations and where European star players long to play)?
Yes, actually it partly was, because his role as Director of Player Personnel, his inability to institute an adequatee system to develop players internally lead to him having a shortage of players as a coach and an over reliance on UFAs. Furthermore his lack of ability to properly assess and use and develop talent in front of him lead him to further rely on UFAs.


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12-22-2010, 05:33 PM
  #62
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That 05-06 team that was carried by Jagr also allowed the third fewest goals in the league, had one of the top PK units and were near the top in fewest SOG allowed. But that was just Jagr, right? Nah, right, that part was all Lundqvist, it was a two man team....

Seriously though, Jagr was unreal that year. However, we were able to win 44 games that year while being completely average offensively because Tom Renney actually instilled a legitimate system of play, for the first time in forever. It was the first team in a long time that had an actual identity. Behind defensive stalwarts such as Tom Poti, Marek Malik, Sandis Ozolinsh and Jason Strudwick, we were one of the top defensive teams in the league.

Not really sure how you could objectively say that Jagr single-handedly carried that team. That's just revisionist history. We were carried by him offensively, but that wasn't all that made us successful that season. Far from it.

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12-22-2010, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
That 05-06 team that was carried by Jagr also allowed the third fewest goals in the league, had one of the top PK units and were near the top in fewest SOG allowed. But that was just Jagr, right? Nah, right, that part was all Lundqvist, it was a two man team....

Seriously though, Jagr was unreal that year. However, we were able to win 44 games that year while being completely average offensively because Tom Renney actually instilled a legitimate system of play, for the first time in forever. It was the first team in a long time that had an actual identity. Behind defensive stalwarts such as Tom Poti, Marek Malik, Sandis Ozolinsh and Jason Strudwick, we were one of the top defensive teams in the league.

Not really sure how you could objectively say that Jagr single-handedly carried that team. That's just revisionist history. We were carried by him offensively, but that wasn't all that made us successful that season. Far from it.
You're right, he looked around the league and took the trapping system which the NHL was trying to get rid of post lockout and implemented for the Rangers. He's an X's and Os kind of guy and it was working for other people prelockout so why go out on a limb. Renney never took a risk. There's nothing exceptional about a team playing the trap or a variation of it. Renney got the whole team to buy into a system of defense and for that he deserves credit. However in doing so did he hinder his defensmen's progress as I mentioned before in the different approaches between Pock & Sangs vs MDZ?

Hockey is a team sport, players can't do things alone except for a rare few who are such dynamic players that they can single handedly take over games. When Jagr was on top of his game he was such a player and that first year after the lockout he was on his game and there is no doubt he single handedly took over and won games.

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12-22-2010, 07:46 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
You're right, he looked around the league and took the trapping system which the NHL was trying to get rid of post lockout and implemented for the Rangers. He's an X's and Os kind of guy and it was working for other people prelockout so why go out on a limb. Renney never took a risk. There's nothing exceptional about a team playing the trap or a variation of it. Renney got the whole team to buy into a system of defense and for that he deserves credit. However in doing so did he hinder his defensmen's progress as I mentioned before in the different approaches between Pock & Sangs vs MDZ?

Hockey is a team sport, players can't do things alone except for a rare few who are such dynamic players that they can single handedly take over games. When Jagr was on top of his game he was such a player and that first year after the lockout he was on his game and there is no doubt he single handedly took over and won games.
You've mentioned a few times in this thread about the possibility of Renney hindering the development of prospects (I understand your not saying he definitely did, but may have) but I would then pose this question-
What prospect or young player from our system has moved on to any othe organization and had any level of success of impact?

You see, your arguement would have alot more wieght if guys like pock or sanguinetti, or dawes, or korpikoski, or prucha or ortmeyer, or moore or Immonen or any of them went on to have any level of decent success anywhere else. I just cant buy into the idea that any guy with good talent, even though hindered, wouldn't blossom in a new system.

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12-22-2010, 07:57 PM
  #65
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So, short of the Scotty Bowman's of the world, what coach hasn't had the benefit of one, two or three superstar players consistently taking over games?

The Rangers never played the trap under Renney. Certainly not the traditional trap that you'd see the Devils running over the past decade. Asking your defenseman to not take too many risks and asking your forwards to back check is not the trap. It's just a simple defensive system.

Renney took risks. What else do you call playing your fourth line on a minute-and-a-half shift late in a tie game? There was nothing flashy or overly exciting about what Renney did, other than win. He tailored a philosophy to a group of players that weren't overly flashy or exciting, save Jagr. In all my years watching hockey, I've seen countless coaches try to force square pegs into round holes--that is, implement systems that simply didn't mesh with the roster. That Renney was able to recognize the limitations of the roster and implement something that worked is a credit to him.

Also, I'm not buying that he was a hindrance to the development of his defensive prospects. Pock simply wasn't good...why would you mention him and Del Zotto in the same sentence? What prospects from our system were held back by Renney only to blossom elsewhere?

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12-22-2010, 08:31 PM
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What I find even crazier than the fact that we passed up Brown, Getzlaf, Perry, Richards, Parise, Kesler, etc in the 2003 draft in order to pick Hugh Jessiman is that Lee Stempniak, also from Dartmouth, was taken at #148. It seems Jessiman wasn't even the best player on his own team.

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12-22-2010, 08:58 PM
  #67
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Hockey is a team sport, players can't do things alone except for a rare few who are such dynamic players that they can single handedly take over games. When Jagr was on top of his game he was such a player and that first year after the lockout he was on his game and there is no doubt he single handedly took over and won games.
Not only did Jagr lead on the ice but he changed the culture of the Rangers, sweet Caroline was Jagr's favorite song and he loved to play it after wins, it didn't take long for Renney to follow suit and make it the Ranger's theme song for the year.

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Rangers coach Tom Renney unveiled the popular Neil Diamond song "Sweet Caroline" as the club's theme song for the year. This song is one of Jaromir Jagr's favorites, and, since he became captain, the song has been played in the Rangers locker room following each victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...w_York_Rangers

Keep Jagr happy was quickly on everyones agenda, he was surrounded by his buddies too, he was the key to the Ranger's success.


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You've mentioned a few times in this thread about the possibility of Renney hindering the development of prospects (I understand your not saying he definitely did, but may have) but I would then pose this question-
What prospect or young player from our system has moved on to any othe organization and had any level of success of impact?

You see, your arguement would have alot more wieght if guys like pock or sanguinetti, or dawes, or korpikoski, or prucha or ortmeyer, or moore or Immonen or any of them went on to have any level of decent success anywhere else. I just cant buy into the idea that any guy with good talent, even though hindered, wouldn't blossom in a new system.
First the right players need to be drafted/acquired, second the need develop them or they need to get into an organization that can soon enough. To that extent, currently RJ Umberger moved on to Philly proved himself as an offensive NHLer then was traded to Columbus for a 1st and 3rd round pick. Maloney, who probably chose Korpeedo at the 2004 draft brought him to Phoenix where he is now tied for 2nd on the team in scoring.

During his time as Director Renney's would have fed himself as coach his picks/prospects in 03 and 04 and player development program should have been maturing in 06, 07, 08, and 09 but they weren't. From those 2 years we only ended up with Dubinsky and Callahan from all that we got from 2004 and we had a ton of picks and prospects in 2004. The Ranger organization just simply failed to develop players and the Director of Player Personnel is a huge key to that in the organization.

I'm going to try to find the episode from Oil Change, the Documentary of the rebuilding of the Oilers franchise on the NHL Network. There's one episode where they're looking to acquire an enforcer. Renney and Tambellini are talking and Renney is going on about how he'd prefer MacIntyre and that's the guy they want, however if he doesn't get back to them...there was another guy they were talking about and Renney was happy to go with him too. He was talking highly of him and saying how he thought he could still play and how he knew the guy still wanted to play and I'm pretty sure it was Georges Laraque...it was a while back when I saw it....what stands out in my mind is when I saw it and I heard Renney talking about there second choice it was clearly obvious the guy was washed up, yet Tom was willing to give him a shot and I was banging my head saying "this guy's clueless". If anyone else saw the episode or can post it, please do.

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12-23-2010, 05:25 AM
  #68
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Wasn't RJ Umberger drafted by the Canucks??? He only spent 3 months with the organization after we traded for him in 2004.

In any scenario involving Umberger, I cant blame Renney as RJ went unsigned by the Rangers 3 months after they aquired him. Was he demanding a ridiculous contract? Was Sather not interested in resigning him coming off an injury?

Remember that Umberger played 0 games the year we aquired him, leaving very little to judge him on.


All that said, I am not saying Renney didn't make any mistakes, of course he did. And I agree that too often he will give an old vet the benefit of the doubt, which can hurt (like Laroque, Redden, McCarthy) or be a cheap contributor (Shanahan, Straka, Strudwick), probably more often the former I would concede.

The fact remains that Renney iced a better product than any coach since Mike Keenan (no offense to an aging Messier and Gretzky), and I cant criticize him to harshly when he was better than the guys before him and after him. If Torts takes us to the playoffs a few years and we have a dramatic improvement in playoff success, of course I'd say he has done a better job, but that wont mean Renneys time here was any less appealing to me, and it just hasn't happened yet.

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12-23-2010, 08:44 AM
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Bad Director of Player Personnel. Good coach. Those two statements are not mutually exclusive. Two different professions. That is why scouts mostly become GMs, not HC. Renney made a mistake taking the job. Should stick with coaching. The fact that he addmitted his failures suggests he will never get back to scouting.

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12-23-2010, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
The Ranger organization just simply failed to develop players and the Director of Player Personnel is a huge key to that in the organization.
That inability was a NYR trademark for 20 years or so. Renney did not change that the way we would like, true. It may not be his fault, however. Culture doesn't change overnight.
How would one know that those picks were intended for development? We all now they we mostly for future trades in order to get an aging superstar. The requirements are different in that case i.e. those kids should have had a past rather than future.

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12-23-2010, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
If one is to credit Renney with the development of the core of the young team that we have before us today (Girardi, Staal, Dubinsky, Callahan) then the ability of Tom Renney to assess a player's skillset himself as well as the ability to analyze and assess information provided to him to make informed decisions should be questioned. We can objectively look back at the Rangers drafting record to perform an analysis of Tom Renney.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Renney

As we know, 04-05 was the lockout and Renney's first full season as head coach was really 05-06 So we can all pretty much infer that he had a pretty large input on any thing amateur scouting related from when he was hired to when he was promoted to coach. Beyond that it would have probably been Maloney and Gordie Clark, certainly Clark after 2007.

Just being hired, 2002 really wouldn't have been his draft.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00007089.html
2002 - In Tom's mind 2002 produced nothing, maybe he just didn't like the 8th rounder that he drafted that he didn't choose.

2003 draft - His first real draft 10 picks, no NHLers. Most feel the 2nd rounder (Baranka) has all the skills to play but decides to stay over seas (maybe a better interview should of had been done).

The Purge of 2004 - After many years of not making the playoffs, the Rangers trade off their veterans, including Brian Leetch, for a series of prospects and picks. These prospects include Maxim Kondratiev, Jarkko Immonen, Josef Balej, Dave Liffiton, Dwight Helminen, and Rick Kozak. They all turn out to be busts. Who's advising the GM on what names to ask for? Who's in charge of developing these players?

Then there's RJ Umberger who either had personality issues in Hartford or the organization made the decision that he wasn't good enough to keep. How is this guy allowed to run a muck down there if it personality? Either way, he walked as a UFA after being acquired. If you asked me, I would have liked Columbus' 1st and 3rd in 2008. I'm still confused by it all.

2004 draft - After the great purge the cupboards are stocked with 13 picks including 2 first rounders and 4 second rounders. A top 6 goalie is a bust. Other first rounder (Korpikoski) struggles to develop under Renney, has difficulty finding ice when he's the coach and ends up getting dealt after he's fired because the new coach wants his own guys that fit his system. Of four 2nd round picks, we get one hit, with Dubinsky! Hooray! We also get a 4th round hit with Callahan!!! Double Hooray 13 picks two NHLers!!

All the Ranger's decisions aren't made by one guy and I'm not pinning this all on Tom. Certainly Maloney had a big to do in the decision process as well. However, one thing is for sure. When Renney moved out of his senior scout role and into his coaching role, Rangers drafting improved. 2003 and 2004 drafting and prospect acquisition was abysmal. Callahan and Dubinsky in 2004 was accuracy by volume. 2005 when everyone was scouting because there was nothing else to do, drafting improved.

Something else very important happened in 2005...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...liamson&st=nyt

Then in 2007 he's promoted to the position Renney once held "Director of Player Personnel"...
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2946723
Now in 2009 We trade Scott Gomez and acquire prospects, they are Ryan McDonagh and Pavel Valentanko....IMO these prospect will turn out very different than those acquired in 2004. And there is little doubt that since 2007 when Clark assumed the role of of Director of Player personnel that drafting and prospect development has improved significantly, actually since being promoted to senior amateur scout in 2005, this has been the case.

We owe a lot to Gordie Clark for the young team we see before us, not Tom Renney.

I don't question Renney's character, his character is unquestionable. However I don't have any faith in his ability to assess a player at the highest level and hence lacks the ability to coach at that level as well.
This post should be bookmarked required reading. It's got citations. Not just wiki citations, actual sports news outlets. It debunks a lot of the common wisdom about Renney - note that few of the critical responses to it actually deal with Renney's responsibilities as a judge of talent and ability.

It also features information that I had not previously been aware of. The development of youth under Renney really can't just be blamed on Sather or Dolan or whoever the target of convenience is at the moment. Renney had been instrumental in player development. Very interesting.

There's a lot of rose-colored 20/20 hindsight with TR. After the 54 goal season, I remember pulling my hair out for several seasons watching a team that reminded me of watching paint dry.

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12-23-2010, 11:05 AM
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Bluenote13
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All sorts of opinion in Vipers post, I wouldnt make that required reading for anyone but a Renney hater, cause it has to be, left out everything GOOD he brought to the table, how can anyone take him seriously?

Anyway....

I'd bet if Gordie Clark took over after those atrocious initial Sather years his record would not be as great either.

Timing is often overlooked. The team was in shambles when Renney took his post. The Jessiman pick was a big mistake, like SBOB said, it was no time to pick a wild card. We had nothing in our prospect pool worth a damn, should have taken a guy who had a better sense and a better track record. Ironically Gordie Clark might have made the same mistake in this past years draft, but gotta wait awhile to really evaluate that, but still, the bust potential is most definitely there this early in the game.

But one pick does not mean the world. Gordie Clark LOVED Mike Rupp and Branislav Mezei(notice, also two guys who were huge but lacked the sense to play at the level they were drafted). I can blame Renney for that pick, but his overall body of work, like Clark's, is whats important. And Renney changed the culture of this team. Not Sather, not Maloney, it was Renney who brought structure and an overall plan, and of course winning followed. He gave us a winner, and at the same time made more correct decisions with youth than any of the 4 coaches before him.

Hey Pavelich - when I was working for USA hockey and the ECAC I took in a Dartmouth game the year of the '03 draft and had a conversation with coach Bob Gaudet after. He told me Stempniak was the most talented player he ever coached and he never brought up Jessiman. It was interesting that just a few months before the draft the coach wanted to talk about Stempniak more than Jessiman, never forgot that.

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12-23-2010, 11:25 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
Agreed, you need talent in order to win, but there's players and then there's one of the greatest players to play the game who single handedly carried the team in 05-06 and that IMO has nothing to do with coaching what so ever that's just a simple gift that I consider to be lucky to have seen and enjoyed as a fan.


Yes, actually it partly was, because his role as Director of Player Personnel, his inability to institute an adequatee system to develop players internally lead to him having a shortage of players as a coach and an over reliance on UFAs. Furthermore his lack of ability to properly assess and use and develop talent in front of him lead him to further rely on UFAs.
The only thing it has to do with coaching is that Renney allowed Jagr (and his Czech mates)to play the game his way and there weren't boundaries put in place that could (or would in any way) frustrate the Super Star (where as in Washington he was frustrated with the coaching staff and stated, "they took away my tools there, and expected me to adjust to a rigid defensive system instead of building the team around my talents." Not to mention there already was tension surrounding the Caps locker room because supposedly Adam Oates was told the owner didn't have enough money to give him a contract extension, yet they signed Jagr at 81 mil. Oates resented both parties).

Sather, like several G.M's before him, is still the one to blame imo.

The biggest mistakes (and most would probably agree) included the signings of, or trading for Holik, Lindros, Jagr, Messier (again), Kovalev (again), etc...

The 03'-04' season was horrible for the Rangers when looking at the standings, but the results of the lottery draft is enough to make even a casual Rangers fan furious. The players listed above helped the team just enough so that they would finish 25th overall (as opposed to 28th) in the standings. Just 3 more spots up, and Ovechkin (or Malkin) would be a Ranger .

Maybe if Slats would have went with the kids back then, they would have had a better record but I highly doubt that.

Subsequently, next season's fate would probably have ended similarly for the Rangers. Maybe we could have landed Kessel or Backstrom. I'm sure even Chris Stewart is a player we all could live with.
Lets not forget we missed out that draft year when passing on Claude Giroux. Who's fault is that?

Go back to 05' (and I love Staal) if the Kings select Staal, or the Rangers move up one more, we get Kopitar.

Bottom line, by now Renney's mistake doesn't phase me. This is a franchise who let so many super star players go, either due to poor scouting/drafting or crappy trades since the 70's. The list is too long to count.

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12-23-2010, 11:26 AM
  #74
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Everyone deserves blame for the Jessiman pick. But it ultimately falls on Sather. Of course, there have been plenty of Sather fall guys in his tenure.

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12-23-2010, 11:58 AM
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imho the GM isnt really responsible for the draft busts...well, i guess he is by proxy, but to me the guy who would be responsible is the guy who tells him to draft said guy....sure, sather hired those ppl, but still, hes just listening to their advice. theres no way a gm can scout all the top prospects, not when his primary job is the well being of the franchise on the ice at this moment.

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