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Old
12-23-2010, 12:00 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
imho the GM isnt really responsible for the draft busts...well, i guess he is by proxy, but to me the guy who would be responsible is the guy who tells him to draft said guy....sure, sather hired those ppl, but still, hes just listening to their advice. theres no way a gm can scout all the top prospects, not when his primary job is the well being of the franchise on the ice at this moment.
The bold is why he gets some of the blame. A ultimately, it is his call.

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12-23-2010, 12:10 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
The bold is why he gets some of the blame. A ultimately, it is his call.
eh, i just have a hard time blaming sather for that....i blame sather for his lack of ability to play the free agent market wisely...but not for the draft picks, i dont give him credit for picks either though...imho the credit/blame nowadays falls with Clark..and its mostly been credit.

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12-23-2010, 12:35 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
eh, i just have a hard time blaming sather for that....i blame sather for his lack of ability to play the free agent market wisely...but not for the draft picks, i dont give him credit for picks either though...imho the credit/blame nowadays falls with Clark..and its mostly been credit.
I agree with you that Renney is more to blame for the pick, and I have no problem with Renney taking the blame for the pick. I just dont think that pick is his legacy.

Another thing people are failing to recognize is that as Director of Personel and VP of Player Development, he is not actually scouting the players and evaluating them for the most part. These positions are management positions that focus on getting the scouts the tools they need, and funneling information through the proper channels to better judge assets, etc..
Every scout in the organization doesn't pick up the phone and call Glen Sather to update him on the 50 guys the team is keeping track of. That info is funneled through the Director and VP who has to make decisions based on his scouts.

Now I understand the degree of involvement in every organization differs and I have no clue what pull Renney actualy had within the Rangers Organization while he held those positions, but lets be honest, he held each one for under 2 yrs.


But let me end by saying this, and I've said it before. I have no problem with the Jessiman pick no matter who's to blame, we've had higher picks than number 12 turn out to be flops here, so I wont worry about this one either.
As a player/personel guy it appears Renney may not have been that great. As a coach, he did a wonderful job with the assets he had.

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12-23-2010, 12:55 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by DubiDubiDoo View Post
I agree with you that Renney is more to blame for the pick, and I have no problem with Renney taking the blame for the pick. I just dont think that pick is his legacy.

Another thing people are failing to recognize is that as Director of Personel and VP of Player Development, he is not actually scouting the players and evaluating them for the most part. These positions are management positions that focus on getting the scouts the tools they need, and funneling information through the proper channels to better judge assets, etc..
Every scout in the organization doesn't pick up the phone and call Glen Sather to update him on the 50 guys the team is keeping track of. That info is funneled through the Director and VP who has to make decisions based on his scouts.

Now I understand the degree of involvement in every organization differs and I have no clue what pull Renney actualy had within the Rangers Organization while he held those positions, but lets be honest, he held each one for under 2 yrs.


But let me end by saying this, and I've said it before. I have no problem with the Jessiman pick no matter who's to blame, we've had higher picks than number 12 turn out to be flops here, so I wont worry about this one either.
As a player/personel guy it appears Renney may not have been that great. As a coach, he did a wonderful job with the assets he had.
id have to vehemently disagree there...we had a team with shanny, jagr, drury, gomez, staal, lundqvist, straka, girardi, dubinsky, callahan, etc and that team struggled to score goals. that should never have happened. they were ranked like 29th in goals for...and this year basically on the backs of our kids were ranked 10th in goals for...this is without Gaborik being any kind of a factor, without Drury fo rmost of the season, without prospal for the entire season...Tortorella >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Renney.

If you want to bring up last year, and im sure ppl will, that team defied the odds by NOT making the playoffs...you look at the stats, and no other team finished in the top 16 in G/G and Top 16 in GA/G who didnt make the playoffs...hell id bet its a rare feat for that to happen at all...last year was a lot about bad luck imho.

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12-23-2010, 01:02 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
id have to vehemently disagree there...we had a team with shanny, jagr, drury, gomez, staal, lundqvist, straka, girardi, dubinsky, callahan, etc and that team struggled to score goals. that should never have happened. they were ranked like 29th in goals for...and this year basically on the backs of our kids were ranked 10th in goals for...this is without Gaborik being any kind of a factor, without Drury fo rmost of the season, without prospal for the entire season...Tortorella >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Renney.

If you want to bring up last year, and im sure ppl will, that team defied the odds by NOT making the playoffs...you look at the stats, and no other team finished in the top 16 in G/G and Top 16 in GA/G who didnt make the playoffs...hell id bet its a rare feat for that to happen at all...last year was a lot about bad luck imho.
This does not prove anything. You contradict yourself a bit too by including a very young Cally, Dubinsky, Girardi and Staal. All guys that were still learning under Renney and his staff.

Having said that, I was not a fan of Perry Pearn. How was our PP that year?

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12-23-2010, 01:26 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
id have to vehemently disagree there...we had a team with shanny, jagr, drury, gomez, staal, lundqvist, straka, girardi, dubinsky, callahan, etc and that team struggled to score goals. that should never have happened. they were ranked like 29th in goals for...and this year basically on the backs of our kids were ranked 10th in goals for...this is without Gaborik being any kind of a factor, without Drury fo rmost of the season, without prospal for the entire season...Tortorella >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Renney.

If you want to bring up last year, and im sure ppl will, that team defied the odds by NOT making the playoffs...you look at the stats, and no other team finished in the top 16 in G/G and Top 16 in GA/G who didnt make the playoffs...hell id bet its a rare feat for that to happen at all...last year was a lot about bad luck imho.
I understand what your saying, but I dont care how many goals the team scores if its winning games.

Is our offense better under Tortorella, yes it is vastly improved.
Is our defense better as a team? I'd say absolutley not.

Either way though, you want me to believe that-
Tortorella>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Renney...
and ignore the fact that Renney took his team to the playoffs 3 times while calling Torts miss of the playoffs, bad luck. Thats completely unfair in my opinion. I think Torts (who I dislike because his personality) Is doing a wonderful job this year, but I'm not going to say his been better than Renney until he wins a playoff round.

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12-23-2010, 01:41 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by DubiDubiDoo View Post
I understand what your saying, but I dont care how many goals the team scores if its winning games.

Is our offense better under Tortorella, yes it is vastly improved.
Is our defense better as a team? I'd say absolutley not.

Either way though, you want me to believe that-
Tortorella>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Renney...
and ignore the fact that Renney took his team to the playoffs 3 times while calling Torts miss of the playoffs, bad luck. Thats completely unfair in my opinion. I think Torts (who I dislike because his personality) Is doing a wonderful job this year, but I'm not going to say his been better than Renney until he wins a playoff round.
Right now were sitting at 2.60 goals allowed per game.
last year we were 2.61.

2 years ago (mostly under Renney):2.58
3 years ago (compeltely under renney)2.32
4 years ago 2.57
5 years ago 2.57

outside of the 1 outlier year, which really can be explained away as, our team couldnt score a goal to save their lives, so they had no choice but to play rock solid defense, there is no measurable difference defensively between Renney and Torts defensively. difference between 2.58 and 2.61 adds up to about 2-3 goals more per year which is negligible.

Our defense under Renney was all about Henrik Lundqvist. Our defense under Tortorella is all about Henrik Lundqvist. Nothing has changed in that aspect.

Conversely, doing the same numbers for offense...
5 years ago: 3.05
4 years ago: 2.84
3 years ago: 2.50
2 years ago: 2.44
last year: (under torts) 2.67
this year: 2.94

imho with the exception of 2 years ago, Renney had a more talented offensive team every year. Jagr > Gaborik, its not even a competition, and Shanny was better than anyone we had. 5 years ago id say was Renneys finest coaching job as he got a lot out of a relatively untalented team, but his feel for the game and ability to get anything out of his club offensively was readily showed.

again, it wasnt all bad with Renney, he changed the culture of this team. to me that was HUGE. that was what Joe Torre brought to the yankees, an ability to to stay calm, cool and collected in the face of adversity, to bring stability to a team. but, like Torre, Renneys inability to actually manage/coach is what led to his downfall. What I like about Tortorella is that he is a good COACH. personality, structure, all that groundwork was laid by Renney, which is what made him a good transitional coach, getting us away from the stupidity that was the decade of despair, and righting the ship. for that he will always have my thanks, but we were going nowhere under him. furthermore the stupidest trades and signings were done under his tenure as coach, and like it or not, the head coach does have a lot to do with what players are brought in, etc. you bet your ass the gm will tlak it over with the coach first to see how he feels. most of us knew the Redden, Drury, Blowmez signings were awful, but you have to remember that Renney must have given them the thumbs up or at the very least must have not given them the epic thumbs down.

All in all, Renney is probably the right coach to set that culture up again in Edmonton, but ultimately that team won't win jack with him at the helm.

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12-23-2010, 02:14 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
Right now were sitting at 2.60 goals allowed per game.
last year we were 2.61.

2 years ago (mostly under Renney):2.58
3 years ago (compeltely under renney)2.32
4 years ago 2.57
5 years ago 2.57

outside of the 1 outlier year, which really can be explained away as, our team couldnt score a goal to save their lives, so they had no choice but to play rock solid defense, there is no measurable difference defensively between Renney and Torts defensively. difference between 2.58 and 2.61 adds up to about 2-3 goals more per year which is negligible.

Our defense under Renney was all about Henrik Lundqvist. Our defense under Tortorella is all about Henrik Lundqvist. Nothing has changed in that aspect.

Conversely, doing the same numbers for offense...
5 years ago: 3.05
4 years ago: 2.84
3 years ago: 2.50
2 years ago: 2.44
last year: (under torts) 2.67
this year: 2.94

imho with the exception of 2 years ago, Renney had a more talented offensive team every year. Jagr > Gaborik, its not even a competition, and Shanny was better than anyone we had. 5 years ago id say was Renneys finest coaching job as he got a lot out of a relatively untalented team, but his feel for the game and ability to get anything out of his club offensively was readily showed.

again, it wasnt all bad with Renney, he changed the culture of this team. to me that was HUGE. that was what Joe Torre brought to the yankees, an ability to to stay calm, cool and collected in the face of adversity, to bring stability to a team. but, like Torre, Renneys inability to actually manage/coach is what led to his downfall. What I like about Tortorella is that he is a good COACH. personality, structure, all that groundwork was laid by Renney, which is what made him a good transitional coach, getting us away from the stupidity that was the decade of despair, and righting the ship. for that he will always have my thanks, but we were going nowhere under him. furthermore the stupidest trades and signings were done under his tenure as coach, and like it or not, the head coach does have a lot to do with what players are brought in, etc. you bet your ass the gm will tlak it over with the coach first to see how he feels. most of us knew the Redden, Drury, Blowmez signings were awful, but you have to remember that Renney must have given them the thumbs up or at the very least must have not given them the epic thumbs down.

All in all, Renney is probably the right coach to set that culture up again in Edmonton, but ultimately that team won't win jack with him at the helm.
Even as a Renney lover I agree with this statement, as I put coaches in categories, and Renney is not a finisher ala Keenan or Tortorella.

My last defense of Renney will be just to say a fan since the mid 80's, I can honestly ay the Renney years have been the best years since 1994.

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12-23-2010, 03:21 PM
  #84
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LOL. Some of these posts make me laugh.

Tortorella's tenure with TB > Renney's tenure with NYR. Sure, I'll buy that, easy. Torts >>>>> Renney, or whatever silly thing I saw above? Certainly not based off of their accomplishments with our franchise. Will that silly "statement" be true in the end? Possibly, but not now.

You can make all the excuses you want, chalk it up to luck or whatever other non-quantifiable thing you want, but Torts missed the playoffs. It's as simple as that. Comparing their tenures as Rangers coach, I can't possibly fathom how one could objectively state that Tortorella's performance with the Rangers is superior to Renney's.

Let Torts actually take this team into the playoffs over a full season first, and maybe win a series before we begin proclaiming how much better he is than anyone else. Funny, Inferno, how you're sticking with your "Renney won't win it all" thing, after singing the praises of Torts, who was supposed to be the guy to lead us over the hump...only to see him fall flat in his first full season here. Maybe lay off these grand projections about who can or can't do what. You're not going to earn any pats on the back for being right 15 years from now, only ridicule if/when you're proven wrong.

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12-23-2010, 03:54 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
LOL. Some of these posts make me laugh.

Tortorella's tenure with TB > Renney's tenure with NYR. Sure, I'll buy that, easy. Torts >>>>> Renney, or whatever silly thing I saw above? Certainly not based off of their accomplishments with our franchise. Will that silly "statement" be true in the end? Possibly, but not now.

You can make all the excuses you want, chalk it up to luck or whatever other non-quantifiable thing you want, but Torts missed the playoffs. It's as simple as that. Comparing their tenures as Rangers coach, I can't possibly fathom how one could objectively state that Tortorella's performance with the Rangers is superior to Renney's.

Let Torts actually take this team into the playoffs over a full season first, and maybe win a series before we begin proclaiming how much better he is than anyone else. Funny, Inferno, how you're sticking with your "Renney won't win it all" thing, after singing the praises of Torts, who was supposed to be the guy to lead us over the hump...only to see him fall flat in his first full season here. Maybe lay off these grand projections about who can or can't do what. You're not going to earn any pats on the back for being right 15 years from now, only ridicule if/when you're proven wrong.
Torts is a better coach than Renney..i wasnt comparing their 2 legacies as Rangers coaches...and i forget what exactly Renney accomplished as a Ranger head coach? getting to the 2nd round of the playoffs is hardly grounds for inducting him into the hall of fame. Torts also got the team into the playoffs his first year after the rangers were out of contention when Renney got here, so he turned that mess around.

again, last year was a very strange occurance. a team that was very good in goals for and goals against per game to miss the playoffs is very very strange. im trying to remember the last time thats happened to any club, leave alone the Rangers organization.

Torts' tenure as a Rangers coach is undefined at the moment, lets also not forget that it took Sean Averys miraculous performance as a Ranger for us to make the playoffs in one of Renneys years. and we fell from first to ~6th in another of his years in the last week, and i believe there was also another year where it took a late surge to barely squeak in. beating an atlanta franchise that never made the playoffs in its history, and beating a devils team that we dominated all year long doesnt make him a good coach.

but, i digress. ill say it agian though, im not comparing the 2 coaches tenures as rangers. im comparing the 2 coaches period. the statistics were merely to show how things were steadily moving in the negative direction with Renney when it comes to offense, and how it quickly went back up with Torts, and likewise how the defensive numbers havent changed with any degree of noticability under Torts (further lending credence to my stance that Lundqvist is what makes this teams defense go, not the coaches structure...its the coaches structure that leads to offensive chances and production.)

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12-23-2010, 04:07 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
Torts is a better coach than Renney..i wasnt comparing their 2 legacies as Rangers coaches...and i forget what exactly Renney accomplished as a Ranger head coach? getting to the 2nd round of the playoffs is hardly grounds for inducting him into the hall of fame. Torts also got the team into the playoffs his first year after the rangers were out of contention when Renney got here, so he turned that mess around.
Yes, because I totally said Renney ought to be inducted into the HOF. He brought the franchise back to respectability, which for someone who has rooted for the team as long as I have, was a tremendous feat. He made us relevant, and made us worth watching again.

And for the record, the Rangers were in playoff position when they fired Renney. Struggling mightily, yes, but that's something we had seen the team do before for stretches. I have no reason to doubt that the team would have made the playoffs yet again had Renney remained...however, it doesn't matter. They were in playoff position when they fired him, they made the playoffs after the fact. Never, though, were they contending for anything but a playoff spot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
again, last year was a very strange occurance. a team that was very good in goals for and goals against per game to miss the playoffs is very very strange. im trying to remember the last time thats happened to any club, leave alone the Rangers organization.
As I said, rationalize it however you'd like. Fact is, they missed the playoffs. Something that they hadn't done post-lockout. I don't care if it was bad luck or because they sucked. Wins and a playoff spot are what you strive for, not peripheral stats that indicate you should have made the postseason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
Torts' tenure as a Rangers coach is undefined at the moment, lets also not forget that it took Sean Averys miraculous performance as a Ranger for us to make the playoffs in one of Renneys years. and we fell from first to ~6th in another of his years in the last week, and i believe there was also another year where it took a late surge to barely squeak in. beating an atlanta franchise that never made the playoffs in its history, and beating a devils team that we dominated all year long doesnt make him a good coach.

but, i digress. ill say it agian though, im not comparing the 2 coaches tenures as rangers. im comparing the 2 coaches period. the statistics were merely to show how things were steadily moving in the negative direction with Renney when it comes to offense, and how it quickly went back up with Torts, and likewise how the defensive numbers havent changed with any degree of noticability under Torts (further lending credence to my stance that Lundqvist is what makes this teams defense go, not the coaches structure...its the coaches structure that leads to offensive chances and production.)
Well, then whatever, I guess. I don't really care what Tortorella did with Tampa Bay. I care about what he has done here, and what he will do here. Why compare anything but their tenures as Rangers coach?

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12-23-2010, 04:24 PM
  #87
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Maybe I can end this arguement by taking a step back a bit.

Since the day Renney has taken over as coach, and continuing on through until today under Tortorella, the Rangers have been a more competitive team, a more fun team to root for, a younger team, and a team to be more optomistic about going forward than we had for a long time. Its a good time to be a Ranger fan no matter who the coach is, as we have alot of good young players and what looks like more on the way. I appreciated the return to playoff hockey, and not being miserable for 82 games a year anymore. I hope in a few years we can look back on Renney's arrival and the transition to Torts as the necessary steps to bring the cup back to the garden!

We have the Lightening tonight, Let's go Rangers!

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12-23-2010, 05:10 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
Right now were sitting at 2.60 goals allowed per game.
last year we were 2.61.

2 years ago (mostly under Renney):2.58
3 years ago (compeltely under renney)2.32
4 years ago 2.57
5 years ago 2.57

outside of the 1 outlier year, which really can be explained away as, our team couldnt score a goal to save their lives, so they had no choice but to play rock solid defense, there is no measurable difference defensively between Renney and Torts defensively. difference between 2.58 and 2.61 adds up to about 2-3 goals more per year which is negligible.

Our defense under Renney was all about Henrik Lundqvist. Our defense under Tortorella is all about Henrik Lundqvist. Nothing has changed in that aspect.

Conversely, doing the same numbers for offense...
5 years ago: 3.05
4 years ago: 2.84
3 years ago: 2.50
2 years ago: 2.44
last year: (under torts) 2.67
this year: 2.94

imho with the exception of 2 years ago, Renney had a more talented offensive team every year. Jagr > Gaborik, its not even a competition, and Shanny was better than anyone we had. 5 years ago id say was Renneys finest coaching job as he got a lot out of a relatively untalented team, but his feel for the game and ability to get anything out of his club offensively was readily showed.

again, it wasnt all bad with Renney, he changed the culture of this team. to me that was HUGE. that was what Joe Torre brought to the yankees, an ability to to stay calm, cool and collected in the face of adversity, to bring stability to a team. but, like Torre, Renneys inability to actually manage/coach is what led to his downfall. What I like about Tortorella is that he is a good COACH. personality, structure, all that groundwork was laid by Renney, which is what made him a good transitional coach, getting us away from the stupidity that was the decade of despair, and righting the ship. for that he will always have my thanks, but we were going nowhere under him. furthermore the stupidest trades and signings were done under his tenure as coach, and like it or not, the head coach does have a lot to do with what players are brought in, etc. you bet your ass the gm will tlak it over with the coach first to see how he feels. most of us knew the Redden, Drury, Blowmez signings were awful, but you have to remember that Renney must have given them the thumbs up or at the very least must have not given them the epic thumbs down.

All in all, Renney is probably the right coach to set that culture up again in Edmonton, but ultimately that team won't win jack with him at the helm.
How are you going to compare the offensive capabilities of the team today with the when Jagr was here, considering how much his "amazing" 05-06 season was impacted by the state of officiating in the league?

In 2005-06, every team in the league had over 400 PP opportunities. 10 teams had over 500. The Rangers had 440. In 2006-07, no team had 500 and only half the league had over 400. In 2007-08, ONE team in the league had over 400. Last season, no team had more than 332. The Rangers are on pace for about 270-280 this season.

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12-26-2010, 02:20 AM
  #89
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Any decent manager doesn't micromanage, they hire people around them them to do all the work and they do very little themselves. I'd expect Glen Sather, the General Manager, operates the same way, with the exception of maybe contract negotiations and UFA signings, though I truly don't know. I'd assume, he'd run his business like most are run, where he designates decision makers to make decisions and in the end, he's responsible for that decision, but he gets to fire people.

It's my belief that when Tom Renney was the senior scout then Director of Player Personnel with the Rangers he would have had a large influence in the decision making process in drafting, prospect acquisition and player development. 2003 was a golden draft and a huge opportunity. 2004 was the great purge and the organization was looking to rebuild with a youth movement. The Director of player personnel would have been the person to set the tone for developing that youth and would have had a very large role to play. The number of players that Renney (and Maloney) turned out were few and the organization suffered as a result signing over priced under performing vets. I'm not a fan of Renney's, so I guess there will always be those who like Renney and those who don't.

So far, Gordie Clark has my respect and IMO the guy really seems to know what he's doing.

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12-26-2010, 07:23 PM
  #90
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