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Old
12-25-2010, 12:56 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by BigKing View Post
I said he should have played against Edmonton and I stick by that. Thankfully the score didn't get out of hand as Stortini was feeling pretty good after our toughest guy couldn't handle Peckham. With Brown targeting Hall and Eberle on seperate occasions, a blow-out would have produced some unfavorable results in the department of physicality for LA.

I do agree with Herby though in regards to playing time. Before the season, I was all for Westy playing and then sitting for most of the game. Then I'd double shift another forward in his place. What the Kings want to do, I believe, is have Westgarth continue developing into a guy who isn't going to hurt you if he plays in the 3rd. He has come a long way from when he first joined Manchester, much like Parros way back when, and even his biggest detractors have to admit that he has looked much better out on the ice over the past month.

That blueline comes out of nowhere sometimes though. Need to stop tripping over that.
i would love for Westie to develop further that TMu can justify dressing him other than just for the role of cop and bodyguard. i don't know if he will ever develop far enough to move to the #3, it's a great goal/ambition. in the long run though i would just be happy if he could hold up on the #4 and contribute....and not trip over the blue line.

his TOI and other stats for the last five games he has suited up:

12/19 vs CHI: 8:38 TOI, 1 penalty (5Min - fighting/mjr), no pts, even
12/18 vs NASH: 9:01 TOI, 1 penalty (2Min - tripping/minor), 1 ast, +1
12/16 vs STL: 7:04 TOI, no penalties, no pts, -2
12/11 vs MIN: 3:19 TOI, no penalties, no pts, even
12/9 vs CAL: 3:54 TOI, no penalties, no pts, even

there is quite bit of variable when it comes to his TOI for starters, from just over 3 to 9minutes imo is sizable. only 1 assist and a -1 over five games for the fourth line when he is skating is awful. i know part of his role is also as a deterrent, not just enforcer. he and every player that fills the role can't be expected to fight every night, so one fight in five games is understandable.

when looking at this though the production of the fourth line i think is simply atrocious. i would rather see the Kings rolling four lines that can put scoring pressure on an opponent. a few more games without Westie in the line-up i think it will be interesting to compare the 4th line's numbers versus when he is in. although versus ANH and PHI i fully expect TMu to dress him

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12-25-2010, 04:02 PM
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This thread is ridiculous. It's pretty clear that most of you don't really "get" what happens during a hockey game if you don't think there is any reason to have a guy like Westgarth dressed. I'd rather be a team like Philly and have 2 or 3 guys like that dressed, or did everyone forget they made the finals last year, and are pushing for 1st overall this year?


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12-25-2010, 04:44 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by tantrum4 View Post
This thread is ridiculous. It's pretty clear that most of you don't really "get" what happens during a hockey game if you don't think there is any reason to have a guy like Westgarth dressed. I'd rather be a team like Philly and have 2 or 3 guys like that dressed, or did everyone forget they made the finals last year, and are pushing for 1st overall this year?
Really...must every thread on every topic on this board resort to the "you guys don't get it thread" or the "I played so I am automatically right"

How many NHL games did Scotty Bowman play?
How many NHL games did Bill Torrey play

Bill Belichek played briefly at the Div III level and is probably the greatest coach in NFL history.

On the flip side Wayne Gretzky was arguably the greatest player ever and was awful as a coach and talent evaluator......oh wait nevermind I only played high school hockey I can't judge him...my bad.

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12-25-2010, 05:03 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Herby View Post
Really...must every thread on every topic on this board resort to the "you guys don't get it thread" or the "I played so I am automatically right"

How many NHL games did Scotty Bowman play?
How many NHL games did Bill Torrey play

Bill Belichek played briefly at the Div III level and is probably the greatest coach in NFL history.

On the flip side Wayne Gretzky was arguably the greatest player ever and was awful as a coach and talent evaluator......oh wait nevermind I only played high school hockey I can't judge him...my bad.
well said herby. for the record i grew up playing and have been around the game almost my entire life so if that is some type or requirement then i qualify. all though i agree one doesnt have to play to understand the game and the nuances involved with it.

on the flip side of tantrum's point i find that people that think the game should always be played as he suggests show their lack of understanding, because they arent adapting to how the game has and continues to evolve.

whether you or anyone likes it or not the game is played faster and with more skill than ever before. the game continues to be played more east-west than ever before and the skill level continues to increase as a result. it's because of this that many such as myself are advocates of rolling four lines that are an offensive threat.

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12-25-2010, 05:38 PM
  #55
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Agreed Herby.

It is also the reason I come to these boards. There is always something interesting to read and trust me it doesn't matter if you played at a high level or not at all your opinions are always just as valid as anyone else. The game is completely different today then when I last played it under serious competition and ever since the lockout it has spent all of its time trying to find itself imo.

I am always asking people for their opinions on the game and even though most of the time I walk away thinking"that's hockey for you" there are times when I learn a thing or two and am happy enough for it.


To me I can't imagine the game without enforcers and as such am biased. It was what I unwillingly did often enough to where I was unable to play any longer and only just these past couple of weeks have been undergoing surgery an attempt to correct some of the damage I sustained while doing so.

That said, the instigator rule has ruined a certain part of the game of hockey for me and many others and also the addition of the "second" ref has as well.

I am too tired to go into details now as to why I feel this way but most of them have been discussed here before.

I will ad that it doesn't really matter what we the fans think of overall team toughness as much as it does our GM and staff.

DL obviously puts a ton of stock in having an overall tough team, one that will always drop their gloves if they see a specific reason to do so.

For every great team and great player there has been at least one enforcer.

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12-25-2010, 06:04 PM
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Uhh, why are you guys bringing up the Flyers as an example? If we ever have the ridiculous offensive depth that Philly does, get back to me. At that point we'll have the luxury to "dress 2 or 3 guys like that" as well.

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12-25-2010, 10:24 PM
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I.....um......

huh?

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12-26-2010, 01:53 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herby View Post
Really...must every thread on every topic on this board resort to the "you guys don't get it thread" or the "I played so I am automatically right"

How many NHL games did Scotty Bowman play?
How many NHL games did Bill Torrey play

Bill Belichek played briefly at the Div III level and is probably the greatest coach in NFL history.

On the flip side Wayne Gretzky was arguably the greatest player ever and was awful as a coach and talent evaluator......oh wait nevermind I only played high school hockey I can't judge him...my bad.
Scotty Bowman and Bill Torrey were around hockey their entire life, not just sitting at home and watching it on tv or complaining on web sites, then decided to apply for a coaching job and got hired. Use your head. And if you ever watched Gretzky play, you'll remember space was created for him by guys named Semenko and McSorley. Why don't you ask Wayne, Mario, Sid, Ovie, Kane, The Sedins, Stamkos etc etc what they think about abolishing enforcers and fighting from hockey? They'll all laugh right in your face.

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12-26-2010, 07:48 AM
  #59
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I just rung up Kane and asked him, he didnt laugh, so now what?

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12-26-2010, 08:42 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by tantrum4 View Post
And if you ever watched Gretzky play, you'll remember space was created for him by guys named Semenko and McSorley.
... This is wrong on so many levels, I'm not sure where to begin on it. First off, Gretzky played on a line with Semenko about 5% of the time (if that), so the notion that Semenko was his "bodyguard" is just some tired legend that someone started one day and a bunch of sheep who were too lazy to actually study the game just went with. Gretzky was out on the ice 25+ minutes per game during the Oilers' Cup seasons and Semenko was out there about 10, so do the math on it. Gretzky created his own space by scaring people to death with his skills; they were afraid to be embarrassed out there, so they would back off to give themselves time to react. It helped that Gretzky would usually play on a line with Messier or with Tikkanen, someone fast and physical (but with skills) who would get in on the forecheck and make the defense worry about being abused physically as well as finesse-wise, but mostly it was Gretzky, Kurri, Coffey, Anderson, and the aforementioned Messier and Tikkanen who would drive the other team batty with their skating and passing skills.

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Originally Posted by tantrum4 View Post
This thread is ridiculous. It's pretty clear that most of you don't really "get" what happens during a hockey game if you don't think there is any reason to have a guy like Westgarth dressed. I'd rather be a team like Philly and have 2 or 3 guys like that dressed, or did everyone forget they made the finals last year, and are pushing for 1st overall this year?
... Yeah, it's not Richards or Briere or Giroux or Carter or Zherdev putting the puck in the net for Philly and Bobrovsky and Boucher keeping the puck out, it's all about the "superstars" like Shelley, who plays all of six minutes a game, and Carcillo, who plays about eight a game. Pretty much that, in a nutshell, is what's so silly about this whole "pugilistic fury" garbage - there's so much talk about "enforcers" and "intimidation" and twenty-something year olds talking about "OLDE TYME hockey" that they never saw and "hai guyz let me compare hockey to a bar fight lol" and other related brown stuff that there's no room left for a simple, fundamental understanding of the game of hockey. Please tell me who the "enforcers" have been for the Stanley Cup winners over the last 15-20 years that the NHL's had the instigator rule, and beyond that, tell me how they were able to make such an impact in those postseasons while sitting on the bench for 55 minutes per game. Please explain to me how Anaheim couldn't win a Cup in '07 without the immortal George Parros or that Tampa Bay would have fallen short in '04 if they didn't have Everyone's All-World, Chris Dingman. Tell me who was "enforcing" for Detroit during their Cup runs.

Fighting has a place in the game, and having a guy who's tough and can fight is a nice thing to have on the hockey club, provided he's someone who can actually play the game at the NHL level. Semenko and McSorley are good examples - Semenko could chip in 6-12 goals a season and McSorley could give the team 30-40 points from the blueline, so they weren't hurting the teams for which they played. Guys like Wendel Clark, or Messier, or Cam Neely, or Iginla - guys who can really dazzle with their skills and also become a physical force - those guys are rare, and precious, which is why those guys usually end up being captains of their teams. Giving minutes to guys like Ivanans or Westgarth is basically the coach saying "I don't mind taking minutes away from a player who can HELP THE TEAM and pissing those minutes away on someone who can't", and that's the mindset of losing teams. Every minute Westgarth is allowed to **** up NHL ice is a minute that is taken away from a more deserving, more skilled, better player. If he could get the team 15-20 goals a season, like a Darren McCarty or a Martin Lapointe, that's one thing - but Westgarth couldn't get 15-20 in Nintendo hockey, so what's the point? So he goes out there and gets his face rearranged by another worthless player, John Scott; so what? So Chicago (or Kings') players are going to stop running people out there if they have the chance? Nope. Did it win the Kings anything tangible, anything that can help them win a hockey game? Nope. So what's the ****ing POINT of it??? There IS no point to it. It's just crap that is ****ing up my hockey game, one ugly guy who can't play pounding on another one; that's fun.

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12-26-2010, 12:05 PM
  #61
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I love when people spew out facts that aren't factual. Detroit won the back to back cups in 96-97 and 97-98 with one of the most effective checking lines in playoff history....Joey Kocur-Kris Draper-Kirk Maltby. Kocur is known as probably one of the top 5-10 toughest NHL players of all time. Kocur is also known as being one of the most feared fighters. Martin Lapointe was in the mix at forward for the 90's and Bob Rouse, Aaron Ward, and Jamie Pushor were part of there defense as well. The 01-02 Red Wings had Darren McCarty in his prime who replaced the then retired Kocur when they won the Cup.

The Ducks, when they won, played Brad May and Scott Thornton in most of the playoff games, Travis Moen played in every game and Parros in a few. The defense also had Pronger, Beauchemin, O'Donnell....all guys who played every one of the 21 games.

When Tampa won the Cup, Chris Dingman played all 23 playoff games and a Andre Roy played 21. They also had a real gritty defense of Pratt, Sarich, and Cullimore, who were in there prime.

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12-26-2010, 01:49 PM
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There's a reason McSorley was part of the Gretzky deal...if you don't know it you don't know hockey period.

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12-26-2010, 06:50 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
I love when people spew out facts that aren't factual. Detroit won the back to back cups in 96-97 and 97-98 with one of the most effective checking lines in playoff history....Joey Kocur-Kris Draper-Kirk Maltby. Kocur is known as probably one of the top 5-10 toughest NHL players of all time. Kocur is also known as being one of the most feared fighters. Martin Lapointe was in the mix at forward for the 90's and Bob Rouse, Aaron Ward, and Jamie Pushor were part of there defense as well. The 01-02 Red Wings had Darren McCarty in his prime who replaced the then retired Kocur when they won the Cup.

The Ducks, when they won, played Brad May and Scott Thornton in most of the playoff games, Travis Moen played in every game and Parros in a few. The defense also had Pronger, Beauchemin, O'Donnell....all guys who played every one of the 21 games.

When Tampa won the Cup, Chris Dingman played all 23 playoff games and a Andre Roy played 21. They also had a real gritty defense of Pratt, Sarich, and Cullimore, who were in there prime.
Not to mention that pre bench clearing brawl rule changes *everyone* fought. Period. So when 99 won his first cup he was flat out playing in a league that fighting was an intrinsic part of and a common thing.

To go farther back would Bobby Orr be number 4 Bobby Orr without an entire team of hard fighting players to protect him?

The game has and is continuing to change but one thing is starting to look more and more certain to me and that is that since fighting has been watered down head injuries have increased in their severity and frequency. Seems weird but it is true.


On Westgarth, he is a rookie. He makes rookie mistakes. His game is very similar to a few other legitimate heavy weights who can still play the game when they where rookies.

I see McSorely's name brought up allot and I think that people tend to forget what his game looked like when he broke in with the Penguins. It took him time to become the player that he was at the end. Parros looked pretty awful at first too, just give Westgarth time to adjust and he will prove himself.

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12-26-2010, 08:37 PM
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... This is wrong on so many levels, I'm not sure where to begin on it. First off, Gretzky played on a line with Semenko about 5% of the time (if that), so the notion that Semenko was his "bodyguard" is just some tired legend that someone started one day and a bunch of sheep who were too lazy to actually study the game just went with. .
I stopped reading right here. Sorry but you have no clue what a guy like Semenko sitting on the bench does for a guy like Gretzky, wether they are on the ice at the same time or not. I'm not even going to try to explain it to you because if you actually believe what you wrote, it will be pointless for me to even try.

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12-26-2010, 08:40 PM
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I love when people spew out facts that aren't factual. Detroit won the back to back cups in 96-97 and 97-98 with one of the most effective checking lines in playoff history....Joey Kocur-Kris Draper-Kirk Maltby. Kocur is known as probably one of the top 5-10 toughest NHL players of all time. Kocur is also known as being one of the most feared fighters. Martin Lapointe was in the mix at forward for the 90's and Bob Rouse, Aaron Ward, and Jamie Pushor were part of there defense as well. The 01-02 Red Wings had Darren McCarty in his prime who replaced the then retired Kocur when they won the Cup.

The Ducks, when they won, played Brad May and Scott Thornton in most of the playoff games, Travis Moen played in every game and Parros in a few. The defense also had Pronger, Beauchemin, O'Donnell....all guys who played every one of the 21 games.

When Tampa won the Cup, Chris Dingman played all 23 playoff games and a Andre Roy played 21. They also had a real gritty defense of Pratt, Sarich, and Cullimore, who were in there prime.

JT Dutch = owned

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12-26-2010, 08:44 PM
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I just rung up Kane and asked him, he didnt laugh, so now what?
You must have had the wrong number. Try again.

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12-26-2010, 09:03 PM
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I stopped reading right here. Sorry but you have no clue what a guy like Semenko sitting on the bench does for a guy like Gretzky, wether they are on the ice at the same time or not. I'm not even going to try to explain it to you because if you actually believe what you wrote, it will be pointless for me to even try.
... See, that's the whole thing about the "enforcer" fan mentality - it's reliant too much on things that can't ever be proven, and it's also a double standard. If Semenko's on the ice, he's supposedly giving his teammates more open ice and yet somehow he's also opening up ice for his teammates even while he's sitting on his ass. Does he open up ice for teammates when he's a healthy scratch, too? Why would he be a healthy scratch if he was such an important player?

The plain fact of the matter is that if Semenko was a more useful player, he would have received more time on the ice. It's amazing that people who claim to know a lot about the game just cannot grasp this basic Hockey 101 truth. Amazing, and comical.

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JT Dutch = owned
... He sure owned me by not reading my post, I guess? But hey, have fun.

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12-26-2010, 09:54 PM
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Clifford did just fine against Parros. People don't understand how strong Clifford is I think. Everyone keeps saying he would get his ass kicked against a real HW. So far he has held his own.

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12-26-2010, 09:59 PM
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Clifford did just fine against Parros. People don't understand how strong Clifford is I think. Everyone keeps saying he would get his ass kicked against a real HW. So far he has held his own.
i was also really glad to see that. but like bob and jim said, kind of a wrestling match. not that that takes away from his strength--in fact, it probably just proves it even more. but i was glad parros didn't get to land any hammers.

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12-26-2010, 10:18 PM
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Clifford did just fine against Parros. People don't understand how strong Clifford is I think. Everyone keeps saying he would get his ass kicked against a real HW. So far he has held his own.
He wrestled him. It wasn't a fight.

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12-26-2010, 10:29 PM
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I love Clifford he has impressed me a lot so far. I think he can be a Shawn Thornton type player in the future.
Westy serves his purpose and good to keep on hand. A bit disappointed with him so far, given his AHL rep.

As for Clifford handling Parros... Grossman did well against Parros. Not knocking Clifford but Parros is a bad excuse of a hw imo.


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12-26-2010, 10:31 PM
  #72
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We still don't know exactly what would happen if Clifford fought a heavy. The only time he's been clocked with a good shot was against Peckham which drew blood. We don't know how well he'll be able to take a heavyweight's punches and hopefully we don't find out for a while longer.

As for what I'm looking for out of Clifford, I hope he can produce somewhat near to Scott Hartnell but with a few more fights. I think he can do that.

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12-26-2010, 10:34 PM
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I love Clifford he has impressed me a lot so far. I think he can be a Shawn Thornton type player in the future.
Westy serves his purpose and good to keep on hand. Disappointed with him so far, given his AHL rep.

As for Clifford handling Parros... Grossman did well against Parros. Not knocking Clifford but Parros is a bad excuse of a hw imo.
Just saying every game with a HW; peeps keep saying Clifford is going to get his butt kicked. It hasn't happened yet, He has lost some fights but not gotten smashed like everyone keeps saying he is going too.

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12-26-2010, 10:41 PM
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Just saying every game with a HW; peeps keep saying Clifford is going to get his butt kicked. It hasn't happened yet, He has lost some fights but not gotten smashed like everyone keeps saying he is going too.
Agreed for the most part. In this day in age, dressing a hw every game is not going to do any team good unless the other team is carrying a hw. But I think Clifford cant handle the big boys so having Westy is not a bad idea.

The kings could use a vet mw to mentor clifford and add a little bit more toughness to this squad.

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12-27-2010, 01:23 AM
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... See, that's the whole thing about the "enforcer" fan mentality - it's reliant too much on things that can't ever be proven, and it's also a double standard. If Semenko's on the ice, he's supposedly giving his teammates more open ice and yet somehow he's also opening up ice for his teammates even while he's sitting on his ass. Does he open up ice for teammates when he's a healthy scratch, too? Why would he be a healthy scratch if he was such an important player?

The plain fact of the matter is that if Semenko was a more useful player, he would have received more time on the ice. It's amazing that people who claim to know a lot about the game just cannot grasp this basic Hockey 101 truth. Amazing, and comical.

.
This is a totally flawed post. Healthy scratch the same as five minutes of ice time? Listen, I am not a fan of the obligatory enforcer. Not one bit. But I'm also not stupid and I know that in 82 games you aren't goin to play skilled teams that don't take liberties all the time. Semenko sitting in the box means nothing In a particular game for Gretzky. However against opponets that dont Have the skill to match they will do the only thing they can, take the skill out of the other team through physicality and intimidation. Against those teams you don't need a semenko to play more than a few minutes but you still need him on the bench. Your last two posts about limited ice time and semenko and Gretzky not being on the same line completely discount a fairly basic part of hockey, the line change.

I wish enforcers weren't a part of the game, but they are and unless you can convince 30 GM 's in a league diluted of top skilled talent to suddenly drop their tough scrubs, its a fantasy to expect them to disappear and ignorant to dispute their place in the game as it stands today and has stood for a looong time. If you want to talk about ways to eliminate the enforcer in the future or the philosophical ideals behind their exclusion, I'm all ears.

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