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How to make places like ACC affordable

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Old
12-24-2010, 07:50 AM
  #26
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OK,first off,MOST of those "suit" guys get to write off those tickets come year end time which i think is totally wrong.Second off,i am not saying lower the prices,i am saying just make the tickets more accessible to all.It makes me sick seeing all these ads for tickets at the other arena and for about $150 you can take the whole family to a game and thats in places like Philly,Detroit,New York,Pittsburgh....some of the leagues TOP teams.But then you have MLSE,and they give all the fat cats(suits) the first shot at buying tickets.I am not a Leaf fan but the wife is,i am a Flyers fan.For me to take the wife to see a Leafs/Flyers game at the ACC would cost in total ABOUT $500-$800 all in,BUT you go to Philly and watch the SAME 2 teams play and i could spend the same amount of money and that would include gas,hotel,dinner,tickets,and some drinks after the game.Dont some of you find that a little bit stupid especially considering the PRODUCT that the Leafs put on the ice?They have hit rock bottom what now,5 -6 years straight but there ticket prices dont go down?Try that in ANY other NHL city and the building would be empty period.IMO thats why MLSE dont care if they win or lose cause they are making money hand over fist.Its just sickens me cause of the area where i live and what i have to do to get tickets.Why do u think MLSE doesnt want Hamilton(which is where i live) to get a team?Cause then they would have to compete with them for money.Get rid of bettman and get Hamilton a team.

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12-24-2010, 09:40 AM
  #27
seanlinden
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Originally Posted by GHOSTofMAROONSroad View Post
Just save yourself the expense of going to a Leafs game and take that money and buy a large flat screen HDTV and a LeafsTV subscription.

It's too bad the Leafs didn't build a 30,000 seat arena.
GHOST
Why? so nobody could see the ice?

Montreal has the biggest arena in the NHL, I've been there a couple of times and sat in the upper bowl. The seats are awful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2fast4u2 View Post
OK,first off,MOST of those "suit" guys get to write off those tickets come year end time which i think is totally wrong.Second off,i am not saying lower the prices,i am saying just make the tickets more accessible to all.It makes me sick seeing all these ads for tickets at the other arena and for about $150 you can take the whole family to a game and thats in places like Philly,Detroit,New York,Pittsburgh....some of the leagues TOP teams.But then you have MLSE,and they give all the fat cats(suits) the first shot at buying tickets.I am not a Leaf fan but the wife is,i am a Flyers fan.For me to take the wife to see a Leafs/Flyers game at the ACC would cost in total ABOUT $500-$800 all in,BUT you go to Philly and watch the SAME 2 teams play and i could spend the same amount of money and that would include gas,hotel,dinner,tickets,and some drinks after the game.Dont some of you find that a little bit stupid especially considering the PRODUCT that the Leafs put on the ice?They have hit rock bottom what now,5 -6 years straight but there ticket prices dont go down?Try that in ANY other NHL city and the building would be empty period.IMO thats why MLSE dont care if they win or lose cause they are making money hand over fist.Its just sickens me cause of the area where i live and what i have to do to get tickets.Why do u think MLSE doesnt want Hamilton(which is where i live) to get a team?Cause then they would have to compete with them for money.Get rid of bettman and get Hamilton a team.
1. What's wrong with writing off tickets? You can open up a corporation and write off tickets too.

2. There are ads at other arenas to sell tickets because they do not have a big enough following to sell out every ticket with season seats.

3. The people who get first shot at buying tickets are the ones who are willing to pay the most like any free market society should work. They do not discriminate fat cat versus fan.

4. Is it riduclous that they ice a horrible team? absolutely, but they've been trying to correct that. Ticket prices don't go down because demand hasn't dropped. This ridiculousness comes from the fans, not the team.

5. What's wrong with not wanting to compete with another team? The Leafs already surrendered territory to Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Ottawa, and Buffalo. The goal of a business is to make money, and Bettman has been doing a fairly good job of doing so for the owners considering the tough economic times.


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12-24-2010, 09:56 AM
  #28
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Ok, 2Fast, you have found a problem, but no solution. I read your post and will try and reply to it.

A solution for that is not easy. Why are there so few tickets to go see Leafs games? Not because of some conspiracy, but because over 80% of them are season tickets (roughly 15,000 of the ACC's 18,000 seats), and there is a waiting list of over 8,000 people to get season tickets. Plus, it seems once you have them, you don't give them up. In other words if you put yourself on a waiting list for tickets today, you will mathematically die of old age before you get there.

The other tickets go in a flash because they are hella expensive and only the "suits" can afford them, or they are just faster at getting tickets than the rest of the city, or something. That is just the way it is, unfortunately. Like jfried said, the team does not discriminate. Whoever is first to pay the ticket price gets the ticket!

Getting rid of Bettman will not bring an NHL team to Hamilton. Bettman actually has relatively nothing to do with it. One main issue is that a team owns "territorial rights" to a certain distance around themselves. Hamilton might not fall right in the heart of Toronto's territory, but them and especially Buffalo would go to hell and back to try and block it.

But man, being in Hamilton, there are other teams within reasonable driving distance. Buffalo is not far, Detroit is not that far either. Hell, Ottawa and Pittsburgh are also decent. At least you have NHL hockey within reach. So, go enjoy a Leafs away game at the Joe Louis, or in Pittsburgh! Here, I live in the only reasonably-populated part of Canada with NO pro sports teams at all. None. No hockey, no football, no baseball, nothing. And it sucks. Consider yourself lucky. At least you are surrounded by other NHL teams to enjoy!

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12-24-2010, 10:05 AM
  #29
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I know what u are saying....but it is a said state of affairs when u have to give up say a week(sometimes 2 depending on person) paycheck just to see a leaf game and IMO they are CRAP.I know that if allll 15000 ppl that have seasons tickets boycotted the leafs and didnt buy the tickets there would be 15000 more in line to snag them up......but thats Toronto for ya.IMO i dont classify them as Canada's team..not sure really who is but,with the way they have been playing for the last hmmmm 8 years...tickets should almost be given away lol you know what i mean?

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12-24-2010, 10:49 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by 2fast4u2 View Post
I know what u are saying....but it is a said state of affairs when u have to give up say a week(sometimes 2 depending on person) paycheck just to see a leaf game and IMO they are CRAP.I know that if allll 15000 ppl that have seasons tickets boycotted the leafs and didnt buy the tickets there would be 15000 more in line to snag them up......but thats Toronto for ya.IMO i dont classify them as Canada's team..not sure really who is but,with the way they have been playing for the last hmmmm 8 years...tickets should almost be given away lol you know what i mean?
Look, you are perfectly within your rights to not purchase tickets or get entertainment elsewhere. There's plenty of people who will take your money. It would be a much sadder state of affairs if we saw the team tturning down good money.

But face it, unless you are one of the ~19,000 most willing to pay for a game, then you don't deserve to be there. That's how the world works, we're not in communist russia.

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12-24-2010, 03:21 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
5. What's wrong with not wanting to compete with another team? The Leafs already surrendered territory to Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Ottawa, and Buffalo. The goal of a business is to make money, and Bettman has been doing a fairly good job of doing so for the owners considering the tough economic times.
The Leafs territory is 50 miles from their corporate city limits according to the NHL constitution. They don't own western Canada, Ottawa, and Buffalo and they did not relinquish their territory when those teams entered the league.

Copps Coleseum is of course within the Leafs territory, but the league would be stupid to not put another team in southern Ontario eventually. If NY can have three teams why can't Ontario?

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12-24-2010, 04:25 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by silvercanuck View Post
The Leafs territory is 50 miles from their corporate city limits according to the NHL constitution. They don't own western Canada, Ottawa, and Buffalo and they did not relinquish their territory when those teams entered the league.

Copps Coleseum is of course within the Leafs territory, but the league would be stupid to not put another team in southern Ontario eventually. If NY can have three teams why can't Ontario?
And it used to stretch all the way to the Pacific Ocean....because no other team was there.

The League would be stupid to put another team in Southern Ontario. The Leafs capture that TV marketplace fully, they don't need 2 (or 3) teams to keep hockey a top priority in the region.

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12-24-2010, 05:08 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
And it used to stretch all the way to the Pacific Ocean....because no other team was there.

The League would be stupid to put another team in Southern Ontario. The Leafs capture that TV marketplace fully, they don't need 2 (or 3) teams to keep hockey a top priority in the region.
no it didn't. the Leafs just arrogantly claimed it as their own.

The NHL has always had clearly defined territorial rights and they do not include provinces thousands of miles away.

If the league needs to move a struggling franchise and wants to sell tickets they'll look at Southern Ontario. There are plenty of candidates in desperate need.

They may also want to look at TV ratings because the Leafs - despite having no competition in their market - do not have the same penetration and hold on younger demographics like some other teams do. The Leafs numbers though very very good are largely reflective of the size of their market and their traditional fans. In terms of attracting new fans the Leafs aren't really doing a great job and there is definitely room for more competition.

Case in point in terms of ratings is the Canucks. They have regional numbers that are not far off from the Leafs despite a population that is 4 or 5 times smaller. If the Leafs go another decade with a team like this they could very well be forgotten by new generations that didn't grow up with them.

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12-24-2010, 05:14 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by silvercanuck View Post
no it didn't. the Leafs just arrogantly claimed it as their own.

The NHL has always had clearly defined territorial rights and they do not include provinces thousands of miles away.

If the league needs to move a struggling franchise and wants to sell tickets they'll look at Southern Ontario. There are plenty of candidates in desperate need.

They may also want to look at TV ratings because the Leafs - despite having no competition in their market - do not have the same penetration and hold on younger demographics like some other teams do. The Leafs numbers though very very good are largely reflective of the size of their market and their traditional fans. In terms of attracting new fans the Leafs aren't really doing a great job and there is definitely room for more competition.

Case in point in terms of ratings is the Canucks. They have regional numbers that are not far off from the Leafs despite a population that is 4 or 5 times smaller. If the Leafs go another decade with a team like this they could very well be forgotten by new generations that didn't grow up with them.
Sure, whatever you claim. The fact is that Vancouver was predominatly Leafs fans until the Canucks came along.

Selling tickets is a completely outdated business model, today it's all about media rights contracts and advertisers. The NHL needs to grow the game, and putting another team in Hamilton does nothing to accomplish that. There is no evidence to suggest that the Leafs aren't caputuring a younger audience, and that even if they are, it's nothing that can't be entirely attributed to a losing team. Rule #1 in making franchise decisions... you factor out on-ice sucess, because it will come & go uncontrollably.

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12-24-2010, 11:38 PM
  #35
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When Tampa Bay played in the thunderdome, I think that attendance was something retarded like 28,000 because the thing was so bloody big. Could Toronto, being the ginormous hockey market they are, expand their arena or build a new one that could accommodate many more fans, and raise the supply of tickets? How many seats in an arena could be made without running into visibility issues? To me it seems the only way to make tickets more available to the average joe is by simply making many more seats available by building a huge arena.

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12-24-2010, 11:45 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by IMISSTHEJETS View Post
When Tampa Bay played in the thunderdome, I think that attendance was something retarded like 28,000 because the thing was so bloody big. Could Toronto, being the ginormous hockey market they are, expand their arena or build a new one that could accommodate many more fans, and raise the supply of tickets? How many seats in an arena could be made without running into visibility issues? To me it seems the only way to make tickets more available to the average joe is by simply making many more seats available by building a huge arena.
The amount of seats and the quality of sightlines are basically inversely correlated. That is to say, the bigger the arena, the worse the sightlines tend to get. Air Canada Centre is one of the smaller arenas in the NHL, and has some of the best sightlines.

There is zero room for expansion and the rink is 10 years old in an excellent location having recently been refurbished. They're not building a new one.

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12-25-2010, 12:17 AM
  #37
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Why? so nobody could see the ice?

Montreal has the biggest arena in the NHL, I've been there a couple of times and sat in the upper bowl. The seats are awful.
That's just poor design then. The United Center doesn't hold that much less and there isn't a bad seat in the 300 level (SRO excluded).

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12-25-2010, 12:20 AM
  #38
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Convert some sections to huge SRO fan stands.



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12-25-2010, 12:29 AM
  #39
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Having terraces would be a terrible idea.

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12-25-2010, 12:55 AM
  #40
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Easy solution: Put a team in Hamilton.
Best post of the thread so far......


Although it wouldn't be cheap in Hamilton either....just cheaper than the most expensive ticket in the league. Which means every game would be soldout.

Maybe I missed it somewhere...but when a business gets successful and their product is in such a high demand they can charge a lot for it....why would it benefit them to sell their product for cheap?

Is Blackberry (bad example...I know!) going to look for ways to sell the Blackberry Torch to people for twelve bucks?

Is Ford going to find people that can't afford a car and offer them a car for a grand?

Things cost money because that is what they are worth...that is what the market dictates their value is.....that is what people are willing to pay. The point of business is to make money....not give it away.

It might be good PR....but in Leaf Nation PR doesn't make you money....and that is what it is all about.

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12-25-2010, 08:06 AM
  #41
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IMISSTHEJETS
No toronto would not build a new arena any time soon maybe 30 years from now when its time they will look at a bigger arena.

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12-25-2010, 11:42 AM
  #42
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Larger SRO areas opens up a whole other issue. Fan safety and arena liability. SRO areas are practically unheard of in most sports venues in the US and Canada, especially football stadiums. This is because the venues do not want to have something along the lines of the Who Concert Stampede at Riverfront Coliseum in 1979 or the Hillsborough disaster in 1989.

This is part of the reason why terraced sections at football grounds in England are only found at a number of stadiums of teams outside of the Premier League. Even FIFA and UEFA require that matches held during competitions that they control be held in all-seater stadiums (in some cases, those terraced areas are either closed or temporary seating is installed).

Even if more seating was made available at the ACC for the "average fan", what's to stop someone from buying up lots of those seats solely for the purpose of scalping them? Short of requiring that all tickets be picked up at the box office and every ticket bear the name of the person who will be using the ticket (and this would be double checked when entering the venue), there's not much that can be done to prevent scalping and the selling of tickets (regardless of price) outside of "official" channels.

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12-25-2010, 12:12 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by silvercanuck View Post
The Leafs territory is 50 miles from their corporate city limits according to the NHL constitution. They don't own western Canada, Ottawa, and Buffalo and they did not relinquish their territory when those teams entered the league.

Copps Coleseum is of course within the Leafs territory, but the league would be stupid to not put another team in southern Ontario eventually. If NY can have three teams why can't Ontario?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfried View Post
And it used to stretch all the way to the Pacific Ocean....because no other team was there.

The League would be stupid to put another team in Southern Ontario. The Leafs capture that TV marketplace fully, they don't need 2 (or 3) teams to keep hockey a top priority in the region.
Quote:
Originally Posted by silvercanuck View Post
no it didn't. the Leafs just arrogantly claimed it as their own.

The NHL has always had clearly defined territorial rights and they do not include provinces thousands of miles away.

If the league needs to move a struggling franchise and wants to sell tickets they'll look at Southern Ontario. There are plenty of candidates in desperate need.

They may also want to look at TV ratings because the Leafs - despite having no competition in their market - do not have the same penetration and hold on younger demographics like some other teams do. The Leafs numbers though very very good are largely reflective of the size of their market and their traditional fans. In terms of attracting new fans the Leafs aren't really doing a great job and there is definitely room for more competition.

Case in point in terms of ratings is the Canucks. They have regional numbers that are not far off from the Leafs despite a population that is 4 or 5 times smaller. If the Leafs go another decade with a team like this they could very well be forgotten by new generations that didn't grow up with them.
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Sure, whatever you claim. The fact is that Vancouver was predominatly Leafs fans until the Canucks came along.

Selling tickets is a completely outdated business model, today it's all about media rights contracts and advertisers. The NHL needs to grow the game, and putting another team in Hamilton does nothing to accomplish that. There is no evidence to suggest that the Leafs aren't caputuring a younger audience, and that even if they are, it's nothing that can't be entirely attributed to a losing team. Rule #1 in making franchise decisions... you factor out on-ice sucess, because it will come & go uncontrollably.
The charter has changed. The Leafs were compensated when Buffalo Ottawa and Vancouver got their teams. But now you are correct that is 50 miles, but all those expansions were before the current rule.

Truth be told jfried, silvercanuck is correct that the Leafs could be forgotten if they don't start winning. Honestly Toronto's demographics are changing and soccer is becoming the sport of choice, there are the Persistent rumors of the NFL as well. Toronto could be end like any other of the american large markets of similar size where the hockey is an afterthought and even laughed at if the don't get it together.

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12-25-2010, 12:47 PM
  #44
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The charter has changed. The Leafs were compensated when Buffalo Ottawa and Vancouver got their teams. But now you are correct that is 50 miles, but all those expansions were before the current rule.

Truth be told jfried, silvercanuck is correct that the Leafs could be forgotten if they don't start winning. Honestly Toronto's demographics are changing and soccer is becoming the sport of choice, there are the Persistent rumors of the NFL as well. Toronto could be end like any other of the american large markets of similar size where the hockey is an afterthought and even laughed at if the don't get it together.
Any team could be forgotten if they don't win.... but the fact is that in Toronto, hockey is still #1 by a fair margin, and that's after 5 years of horrible teams. Imagine what it would be like if the team was considered a Stanley Cup favourite like Vancouver. You turn on the radio in the summer -- nobody talks about TFCs most recent loss to Dallas, they talk about Brian Burke saying "He might trade Kaberle for the 3905932th time".

You don't put another team in a market because the on-ice product presently sucks. When making location decisions, you do it based on long term financial sense, and factor out the current on ice success (or failure) because that is an uncontrollable variable in the long run.


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12-25-2010, 01:05 PM
  #45
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Truth be told jfried, silvercanuck is correct that the Leafs could be forgotten if they don't start winning. Honestly Toronto's demographics are changing and soccer is becoming the sport of choice, there are the Persistent rumors of the NFL as well. Toronto could be end like any other of the american large markets of similar size where the hockey is an afterthought and even laughed at if the don't get it together.
Not exactly. Hockey is still by far #1, and even if the city of Toronto is seeing declining interest (which it is to some extent), the northern suburbs and rest of southern Ontario is easily enough to continue as they are very entrenched there.

Although Vancouver is a little different, all the Asian immigrants from the 90s who grew up here didn't grow up cricket or ping pong fans, they grew up hockey fans. Canucks games are very multicultural although unlike Toronto there isn't much in the way of pro sport competition.

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12-27-2010, 03:25 PM
  #46
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I find it pretty ridiculous how the thread starter blames business persons. Okay, so the let's say a firm buys a load of season tickets for its best employees. Some of those employees could actually be lifelong Leaf fans who really know the game! Don't come here and post prejudiced.

The tickets cost because there is limited supply (20k arena - 82 games + PO) and a huge market with a strong demand. If the tickets would be given away for a lot less then they're worth, then the black- or resale market would increase the price anyway.

If you don't have the cash or contacts to get the tickets, then don't complain.

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12-28-2010, 03:43 PM
  #47
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wouldnt be a"right off" for some of these companies

Worth the price of admission.

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