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Westgarth/Clifford Pugilistic Fury Discussion

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Old
12-27-2010, 10:00 AM
  #76
Herby
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12-27-2010, 11:31 AM
  #77
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Westgarth knows he is not a playmaker/scorer or even a shut down guy. He is good friends with Parros and wants to model his game after Parros. He knows he needs to add some skill/grit/something to justify his being on the ice more. He also knows why he is on the team now.

Now I was thinking during the Ducks game that, Parros may have wanted to go after Clifford to not only change the flow of the game but also to help his friend. If Clifford would have been crushed by Parros it would have helped the Ducks at the moment and helped his buddy Westgarth. Now the fight wasn't much and the Kings had a PP after it, but...

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12-27-2010, 12:03 PM
  #78
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I really hope Clifford doesn't make a habbit of fighting heavies. He was fortunate Parros didn't connect. Heavies will end his season or career.

Maybe he knows Parros punches with pillows on his fists.

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12-27-2010, 02:21 PM
  #79
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Exactly, that was a ballsy move from Kyle, but Parros has hurt guys like Engelland and Cote before, he is no push over. Clifford got lucky and he knows it...He has no business fighting guys 3 inches bigger and 30-40 lbs heavier. This will end badly for him if he continues like that, ask Taylor Pyatt.

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12-27-2010, 03:52 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... See, that's the whole thing about the "enforcer" fan mentality - it's reliant too much on things that can't ever be proven, and it's also a double standard. If Semenko's on the ice, he's supposedly giving his teammates more open ice and yet somehow he's also opening up ice for his teammates even while he's sitting on his ass. Does he open up ice for teammates when he's a healthy scratch, too? Why would he be a healthy scratch if he was such an important player?

The plain fact of the matter is that if Semenko was a more useful player, he would have received more time on the ice. It's amazing that people who claim to know a lot about the game just cannot grasp this basic Hockey 101 truth. Amazing, and comical.



... He sure owned me by not reading my post, I guess? But hey, have fun.
I did read your post and I responded FACTUALLY to all your statements rather than vague biased opinions like you did.

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12-27-2010, 04:26 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
I did read your post and I responded FACTUALLY to all your statements rather than vague biased opinions like you did.
Get used to it. If you have a differing opinion that him and reply he says you "didn't read his post".
The funny part of it is that he doesn't read replies and then replies by accusing you of not reading his post.

You are better off debating with a Jack Russell Terrier.

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12-27-2010, 04:35 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
I wish enforcers weren't a part of the game, but they are and unless you can convince 30 GM 's in a league diluted of top skilled talent to suddenly drop their tough scrubs, its a fantasy to expect them to disappear and ignorant to dispute their place in the game as it stands today and has stood for a looong time. If you want to talk about ways to eliminate the enforcer in the future or the philosophical ideals behind their exclusion, I'm all ears.
The only problem I have with your post is that it wouldn't be the 30 GM's you would have to convince to get rid of the goons, it's the 700 hockey players that actually play the game on the ice. If you could figure out a way to stop hard hits, questionable hits, cheap shots, intimidation and trash talking, well then I guess you may be able to get fighting or enforcers out of the game. Until that time (which will be never), you're going to have tough guys that sit on the bench and are in the back of people's mind giving them a second thought before they take a run at a superstar.

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12-27-2010, 04:39 PM
  #83
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Some of you should watch 24/7 and see the opinion of current players and how much they and the coaches appreciate guys like Engelland, Godard, and DJ King. Players love those guys.

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12-27-2010, 04:41 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by tantrum4 View Post
The only problem I have with your post is that it wouldn't be the 30 GM's you would have to convince to get rid of the goons, it's the 700 hockey players that actually play the game on the ice. If you could figure out a way to stop hard hits, questionable hits, cheap shots, intimidation and trash talking, well then I guess you may be able to get fighting or enforcers out of the game. Until that time (which will be never), you're going to have tough guys that sit on the bench and are in the back of people's mind giving them a second thought before they take a run at a superstar.
Both you and JDM left out the agitator. The Cooke/Avery/Ott who use the instigator penalty to get away with all kinds of crap that never could have before it.
Fighting and enforcers are needed in hockey. What aren't are the staged fights

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12-27-2010, 04:42 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... See, that's the whole thing about the "enforcer" fan mentality - it's reliant too much on things that can't ever be proven, and it's also a double standard. If Semenko's on the ice, he's supposedly giving his teammates more open ice and yet somehow he's also opening up ice for his teammates even while he's sitting on his ass. Does he open up ice for teammates when he's a healthy scratch, too? Why would he be a healthy scratch if he was such an important player?
Ok, let me try to give you an example outside of hockey and see if it helps you understand.

Scenerio 1: You are in a grocery store with me and I tell you to rob the place. There are no cops around and you can get away with it scott free. By knowing there will be no one to answer to and no retribution, you would most likely go ahead and rob the joint. Fair assumption?

Scenerio 2: Same as above, except I tell you that Brock Lesnar is waiting outside the store to kick the crap out of anyone who tries to rob the place. He's not actually in the store, but he's outside waiting. Does this change your thinking about robbing it even though he's not standing right beside you in the store? I think it does.

Now if you STILL can't understand how a guy that only plays 5 minutes per game and wasn't actually on the same line as Gretzky still creates space for him, then I give up.

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12-27-2010, 04:48 PM
  #86
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No one wants to get punched in the face, bottom line. Ask any enforcer. It's scarey. If you look at the other teams roster and see no one that will hold you accountable and might challenge you and risk hurting you, you will run around and have your way with that team. Bottom line.

Any sport I've played, soccer, hockey, when I see smaller guys on the opposing team, I act tougher, everyone does...when you play agaisnt bigger guys that are in your face, challenging you, generally human beings get nervous and don't act as tough.

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Old
12-27-2010, 09:54 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
This is a totally flawed post. Healthy scratch the same as five minutes of ice time? Listen, I am not a fan of the obligatory enforcer. Not one bit. But I'm also not stupid and I know that in 82 games you aren't goin to play skilled teams that don't take liberties all the time. Semenko sitting in the box means nothing In a particular game for Gretzky. However against opponets that dont Have the skill to match they will do the only thing they can, take the skill out of the other team through physicality and intimidation. Against those teams you don't need a semenko to play more than a few minutes but you still need him on the bench. Your last two posts about limited ice time and semenko and Gretzky not being on the same line completely discount a fairly basic part of hockey, the line change.

I wish enforcers weren't a part of the game, but they are and unless you can convince 30 GM 's in a league diluted of top skilled talent to suddenly drop their tough scrubs, its a fantasy to expect them to disappear and ignorant to dispute their place in the game as it stands today and has stood for a looong time. If you want to talk about ways to eliminate the enforcer in the future or the philosophical ideals behind their exclusion, I'm all ears.


Sadly the NHL has done a pretty good job of getting rid of the need of HWs. A lot of them are in their late 20s/early 30's and only a few youngsters coming up from the AHL. Matt Kassian is the only one I think has a legit chance of being a full time NHLer in the future. He cant replace Godard, Shelly, Boogey, McCokehead, etc by himself.

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Old
12-28-2010, 02:27 PM
  #88
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You think Richardson would've picked a fight with Nichol if Westgarth wasn't skating next to him....doubtful.

I will walk into any bar or sports venue and fight anyone my own size if my buddy next to me is 6'4" 225 and he has my back...as opposed to Poni, a 6'3" softie.

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12-28-2010, 02:43 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
You think Richardson would've picked a fight with Nichol if Westgarth wasn't skating next to him....doubtful.

I will walk into any bar or sports venue and fight anyone my own size if my buddy next to me is 6'4" 225 and he has my back...as opposed to Poni, a 6'3" softie.
Westgarth being on the ice had nothing to do with Richardson's willingness to fight. They were already throwing punches before Westgarth even knew what was going on.

Your analogy only makes sense if we're talking about a brawl. I don't see why it matters if your friend is 6'10" 350lbs unless you expect him to fight for you.

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Old
12-28-2010, 02:55 PM
  #90
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Richardson was playing on a line with Westy, he knew who was out there...he was way more effective with him last night than Poni.

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Old
12-28-2010, 04:04 PM
  #91
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What did matter was Westgarth keeping two players staring at him hitting that Sharks player during Lewis' goal last night. They pretty clearly lost concentration.

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