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Leading team in scoring by 50+ points

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Old
12-27-2010, 01:00 PM
  #26
100mph slapshot
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Originally Posted by C For Choke View Post
Selanne still only scored about 37 or so points in a Duck uniform that season though.
That is true but it becomes problematic if we look at stats this way. For example, a team might trade their 2nd and 3rd highest scorers at the trade deadline, making the cap between the leader and the new 2nd highest (4th before the trades) scorer extremely large.

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12-27-2010, 01:08 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by 100mph slapshot View Post
That is true but it becomes problematic if we look at stats this way. For example, a team might trade their 2nd and 3rd highest scorers at the trade deadline, making the cap between the leader and the new 2nd highest (4th before the trades) scorer extremely large.
Kariya was on pace for leading with 50+ pts without Selanne too. 28gp 21g 20a(1.46ppg) in his games with Selanne and 54gp 29g 38a without Selanne (1.24ppg, 102pts pace) so it's not like he gained any unfair advantage.

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12-27-2010, 01:26 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
The 79 year was an aberration since Lemaire was injured and played in only 50 games but still scored 55 points in those games.

Make no mistake Lafleur was the offensive force of those Habs teams but there was much more talent around him than Dionne ever enjoyed.

There was more talent I will agree. Although keep in mind Dionne had the Triple Crown line with him a little while (Simmer and Taylor).

That being said here is Lafleur and the best years he had relative to his teams next highest scorer:

Lafleur in 1976 - 20 points better than P. Mahovlich
Lafleur in 1977 - 31 points better than Shutt
Lafleur in 1978 - 35 ponts better than Lemaire
Lafleur in 1979 - 52 points better than Shutt
Lafleur in 1980 - 34 points better than Larouche

Other than 1980, that's the dynasty years. I don't know about you, but if that doesn't tell you that Lafleur was the straw that stirred the drink..........

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12-27-2010, 01:58 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
There was more talent I will agree. Although keep in mind Dionne had the Triple Crown line with him a little while (Simmer and Taylor).

That being said here is Lafleur and the best years he had relative to his teams next highest scorer:

Lafleur in 1976 - 20 points better than P. Mahovlich
Lafleur in 1977 - 31 points better than Shutt
Lafleur in 1978 - 35 ponts better than Lemaire
Lafleur in 1979 - 52 points better than Shutt
Lafleur in 1980 - 34 points better than Larouche

Other than 1980, that's the dynasty years. I don't know about you, but if that doesn't tell you that Lafleur was the straw that stirred the drink..........
Lafluer sure was but Dionne's supporting cast was never nearly as good as Lafleur and I actually think Dionne was the better player overall but had the worse situation.

The Sundin-Sakic comp comes to mind here as well. both guys are close and their is an argument for Sundin over Sakic but most guys take Sakic in a heartbeat.

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12-27-2010, 06:22 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Lafluer sure was but Dionne's supporting cast was never nearly as good as Lafleur and I actually think Dionne was the better player overall but had the worse situation.

The Sundin-Sakic comp comes to mind here as well. both guys are close and their is an argument for Sundin over Sakic but most guys take Sakic in a heartbeat.
The eye test tells me that Lafleur was better and even if you favour Dionne his playoff PPG isn't an excuse either. It can be argued that Dionne might have hurt his team a bit by the sudden drop in PPG once the postseason started. But prime vs. prime Lafleur got the Hart votes for a reason IMO.

As for Sundin and Sakic I can't see a legitimate case for Mats. He had good teams with him as well from 1998 to 2004. The Leafs were a pretty good team then, very close to the Avs overall. So you can't use that as an excuse. Sundin outscored Sakic, barely, in 1993. Other than that he never did while in Quebec.

There was one other time, 2002, when Sundin's game hit a high level similar to Sakic but that's as far as I would go for him. Sakic was the better player all around and his Hart voting, playoff resume, defensive prescence and scoring finishes would say this. I'll argue Sundin's case for the HHOF, but it's silly to put him at a Sakic level.

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Old
12-27-2010, 06:40 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I agree, I would look at it the same way for the purposes of this question.
What about looking at it this way?...

When Selanne came to the Ducks they lost Oleg Tverdovsky and Chad Kilger who had 22 and 12 points respectively.

Selanne had 36 points while on the Ducks, so shouldn't the second highest scorer be at least what Selanne's + Tverdovsky's point totals were? That would make it 58 points and bring Kariya's margin of dominance down to 86.2%

Some might even argue that all 3 of Selanne, Tverdovsky, and Kilger should count, which would make the second highest scorer 22 + 12 + 36 = 70 points and Kariya's margin of dominance 54.3%

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Old
12-27-2010, 10:55 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
The Sundin-Sakic comp comes to mind here as well. both guys are close and their is an argument for Sundin over Sakic but most guys take Sakic in a heartbeat.
How close? On an all-time list I'd rank Sakic at least 100 spots ahead of Sundin.

What's the argument for Sundin? The only argument I've ever seen for Sundin over Sakic is that Sundin outscored him one of the four years they played together (conveniently ignoring the other three seasons, and the rest of their careers).

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12-28-2010, 02:01 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by JohnnyD View Post
What about looking at it this way?...

When Selanne came to the Ducks they lost Oleg Tverdovsky and Chad Kilger who had 22 and 12 points respectively.

Selanne had 36 points while on the Ducks, so shouldn't the second highest scorer be at least what Selanne's + Tverdovsky's point totals were? That would make it 58 points and bring Kariya's margin of dominance down to 86.2%

Some might even argue that all 3 of Selanne, Tverdovsky, and Kilger should count, which would make the second highest scorer 22 + 12 + 36 = 70 points and Kariya's margin of dominance 54.3%
Meh. It has merit, but I think I would rather just compare a player's total to whoever had the 2nd-most in that team's jersey that season.

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Old
12-28-2010, 05:06 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Lafluer sure was but Dionne's supporting cast was never nearly as good as Lafleur and I actually think Dionne was the better player overall but had the worse situation.

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Old
12-28-2010, 10:48 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
How close? On an all-time list I'd rank Sakic at least 100 spots ahead of Sundin.

What's the argument for Sundin? The only argument I've ever seen for Sundin over Sakic is that Sundin outscored him one of the four years they played together (conveniently ignoring the other three seasons, and the rest of their careers).
I thin Sundin was the superior international player, in fact he is one of the better performers alltime in international competition so I'd give him the nodge there.. And I'd probably argue he was robbed of the 1st team pick in 01-02 by no one else than Sakic. I do think that Sundin was the better player that year.. but that's basically it though...

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12-28-2010, 11:42 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by vippe View Post
I thin Sundin was the superior international player, in fact he is one of the better performers alltime in international competition so I'd give him the nodge there.. And I'd probably argue he was robbed of the 1st team pick in 01-02 by no one else than Sakic. I do think that Sundin was the better player that year.. but that's basically it though...
If you want to say 2002 was a better year for Sundin then I can live with that. But even that's debatable. Sakic was better defensively and both finished with the same amount of points (80-79). Sakic was MVP of the Olympics too. But there is that season and maybe 1993. Other than that Sakic blows him out of the water. Not much of a contest

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Old
12-29-2010, 07:44 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
If you want to say 2002 was a better year for Sundin then I can live with that. But even that's debatable. Sakic was better defensively and both finished with the same amount of points (80-79). Sakic was MVP of the Olympics too. But there is that season and maybe 1993. Other than that Sakic blows him out of the water. Not much of a contest
Yeah but since when does olympics have anything to do with all star selections? I never said anything about any other season except for the obvious 92-93 season which was already mentioned by another poster. Are you saying that Sakic blows Sundin out of the water in international play aswell? Because that is ridiculous.

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