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The Process is almost complete: Why we need to go for it now

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Old
12-29-2010, 10:06 AM
  #26
The Dark Passenger
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Drury isn't getting bought out. That kinda throws a wrench into your plan. I don't think its possible as I think he has to be put on waivers to be bought out (that NMC everyone forgets about is so tricky).

IMO, we are more than a brad Richards away (this year and next), so I'm not willing to a) add a huge contract to a 30+ player and b) trade young assests to get a rental player when were not winning the cup this year.

Rangers fans need to be patient. Were on the right tracks to being a contender. No need to derail the train because "we've taken the next step."

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12-29-2010, 10:06 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerFan10 View Post
His faceoffs alone put him in the top 9 in terms of "most valuable forward" on this team.
No faceoffs alone do not make him valuable. he is a heart and sould broken finger kind of guy

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12-29-2010, 10:09 AM
  #28
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Just curious...

What does adding Strudwick, and Vandermeer do for this team other than making the defense really slow and outdated? The cuyrrent crop is doing a pretty good job as it is. And...I am a guy that loves players that will stand up for each other, but...There really isn't much of a shortage of that this year.

On Richards...Anything more than. Roszival, Grachev, Wash 2nd rounder, Gilroy to me is overpayment. Noit becuase Richards doesn't carry more value than that...He does. But, becuase he will become UFA. I don't think the club should be moving Ani for a rental. As Torts mentioned...he is part of the core.

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Old
12-29-2010, 10:11 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by DelZottoFutureNorris View Post
I'd appreciate a little more elaboration and analysis if you're going to call my analysis "warped" and tell me the reality is far from that of a contender. The truth is, right now, there are only 3 teams in the East that I'm not confident we could beat in a 7 game series. Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, and Boston. I honestly think we can beat Washington in a 7 game series, and I'm confident against every other team in the East. When there's only 3 teams you can say that about, you're pretty close to being a contender. My point was that we're only a Brad Richards and maybe a minor move or two away from closing the gap between us and the major contenders like the Pens, Flyers, and Bruins. Tampa has severe goaltending issues and their defense is suspect as well. None of the other teams in the East even remotely frighten me when I consider the matchups over a 7-game series. Even if we had to lose Anisimov, and a prospect like McDonagh, and a 1st, I still think we improve our depth and put ourselves into that select top tier of teams in the East. But, if we can add Brad Richards on July 1st, and the net cost is having to buy out Drury and trade Rozsival at the draft for a pick (still quite fair value regardless), this team should absolutely be one of the top 3-4 favorites to come out of the East. I just don't really see how that's arguable and since you haven't provided any actual argument, I continue to stand by mine.
Trading for Richards is the biggest mistake this organization can make right now, and I like Brad Richards a lot.

We've ridden a rather weak schedule with a few quality wins mixed in for the past 2 months and all of a sudden some people think we're a Brad Richards away from the Stanley Cup.

This organization should NOT be giving up any assets whatsoever in the foreseeable future. The only way trading assets away would make sense is if the last 2 months of good (not great) hockey has fooled your into believing this team is ready to compete for the cup, which it evidentally has.

Maybe in a year or two - but not now. And, like I said, it makes little to no sense to start fumbling away assets to find out for sure - especially for a guy that will be an UFA in 6 months.

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12-29-2010, 10:12 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
So, judging by the Islanders game (as you're doing): 60 on FO's, 2 Assists, 15:26 TOI, +1, 3 shots and this is your argument for him being "13th"? LOL.

Let's look at the last 5 games on draws, shall we?

Isles 60%
TBL 68.8%
Phi 72.7%
Pho 46.7%
Pit 80%

Case closed.
Ok bro. As I said, those assists are no more impressive than any other moments by anyone else in the game. The second one especially he basically breathed on it to get it to artie who set up Dubi. TOI i dont even understand as being a case for someone being good, especially since 15 minutes is not a high number. +1, yippee, it was a 7-2 game and he played on a line with 2 of our most effective forwards in that game, not to mention +/- for one game is rather meaningless, especially when its only +1 and not like +4.

As for Drury being a faceoff king, well too bad there is no trap door he could slide down and have someone take his place immediately following the faceoff because he is a possession killer. Winning the faceoff and losing possession of the puck the next time you're involved in the play is a fail.

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12-29-2010, 10:13 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by MSG the place to be View Post
Drury is the 13th most valuable forward on this team. In other words if I was picking a name out of a hat and that person had to sit in the press box the rest of the season I would pray to pull Drury's name.
Are you taking salary into account when making this observation? Or is it just going strictly by play?

I mean, you're wrong on both counts, but you'd at least be in the right neighborhood if his paycheck is involved in your analysis.

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12-29-2010, 10:14 AM
  #32
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Every one of our forwards has played or has the potential to play a big role on the team this year. Feds-Boyle-Prust is going to slow down eventually, and when they do we should be thankful to have a full roster.

Christensen, well, if he doesnt find his game, there are no shootouts in the playoffs, so we will have little reason to have him in a potentially injury free lineup.

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Old
12-29-2010, 10:16 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by DelZottoFutureNorris View Post
Through the first ~half of this season, this team has showed me that it's taken the next step. Our young core is ready to not only play the minutes they're given, but to LEAD. There have been so many positive surprises so far this year. There are so many good stories. The only negative is DZ's sophomore slump which I don't think really worries anyone long-term. We've also been without our 2nd-leading scorer from last year, Vinnie Prospal. Looking at the 6-10 teams in the East, there is absolutely no reason we shouldn't make the playoffs. I see us being a 4-6 seed when all is said and done. But despite it being a huge improvement from last season's disappointment, we shouldn't just be satisfied with making the playoffs. We are at the cusp. We are staring the corner between contender and mere playoff team. This is the most important time in Sather's Rangers tenure. We need to add that big piece that levels the playing field between us and the likes of Pitt, Philly, Wash, Boston (in my opinion, the four best/deepest teams in the East). To do that, we're going to need to trim the fat, and get creative.

Drury should be bought out after this year. No he's not useless. But he is not 7 million dollar useful. He's not even 4 million dollar useful at this point. We have younger, cheaper players who can eat up his minutes and contribute more in all facets of the game (if not faceoffs, they'll come soon enough. hardly any 1st,2nd year players are great at faceoffs right away. it comes with experience.)

Rozy will likely become a cap casualty with Richards on the team. I don't want to start the whole overpaid/undderrated/overrated/hater/lovefest discussion. It's beaten to death almost daily on this board. The point is, his cap-hit is 5 and as a UFA-to-be with only 3 million in actual salary, he has trade value. I'd move him for a 2nd round pick at the draft, or include him in a package for Richards at this year's deadline, obviously. I like Rozy. He's been a warrior for us and is the longest tenured Ranger (along with Henke). However, I think it's time to move on. 5 million for a 2nd pairing d-man (even though Rozy can play 1st pair numbers and play in all situations) is too much when you're spending to the cap trying to ice the most competitive team possible.

We need every dollar we can save. The time to go for it and load up for runs at the cup is approaching more rapidly than some of us thought, and Gaborik and Lundqvist aren't getting any younger. The time to be overly patient has passed. Of course I'm not advocating abandoning the youth-movement or trading the core for older unloyal mercenaries. But it's certainly not time to be sentimental about a guy like Rozy because he's "underrated" and "takes a lot of undeserved crap." We need to put the best team we can on the ice right now. This year. Next year. Our young players are now getting to the level where a hot Lundqvist COULD actually take us to the finals and beyond. The youth-movement worked. Staal, Girardi, Dubinsky, Callahan, Stepan, Anisimov, Del Zotto, Sauer are coming into their own. Some of Kreider, Zuccarello, Grachev, Valentenko, McDonagh will be joining them soon enough. We have Gaborik and Lundqvist who are legit superstars and great competitors in this league.

If we can add a Brad Richards (either for nothing but cap-space, or for reasonable assets that we have the depth to replace), it's much more likely that we could get through the Penguins, Flyers, Bruins, Caps in a 7-game series. Those are the four teams I see as being a step ahead of us right now. The gap isn't that big even now, but it certainly gets closer if we add that experienced, top-flight center like Richards.


Brad Richards for Rozsival, McDonagh, Anisimov, 2nd 2011 (becomes a 1st if Richards re-signs)

4th 2011, low-level prospect for Jim Vandermeer
Future considerations for Jason Strudwick

If we make the above moves, here's this year's lineup:

Prospal Richards Gaborik
Dubinsky Stepan Zuccarello
Fedotenko Drury Callahan
Prust Boyle Avery
Christensen

Staal Girardi
DZ Sauer
Gilroy Eminger
Vandermeer
Strudwick

Next year everything stays the same except Kreider replaces Prospal or Feds on the left side. Bring back one of Prospal/Feds for 1 year at 1 million. If you can get Richards to lower the cap-hit by giving him more years, then you can potentially add a gritty veteran d-man to round out a defense that is really coming into their own. If cap issues become too severe, buying out Drury is an option. I'd like to see Eminger brought back. Unless Gilroy surprises, Valentenko/McDonagh fight for that spot.

Now if we don't trade for Richards and we're still able to sign him on July 1st... here's what I'd love to see next year:

Kreider Richards Gaborik (fly much?)
Dubinsky Stepan Zuccarello
Boyle Anisimov Callahan
Prust Werek Avery
Weise/Bourque/Grachev as call-ups

Staal Girardi
DZ Sauer
Valentenko Eminger
Vet 7th like Vandermeer or Strudwick
McDonagh/Kundratek/Pashnin as call-ups


If everything falls into place, we'd also be in a strong position to make a deal for a veteran puck-moving or physical d-man. It's hard to say which one we'll need, even looking at this projected lineup. It depends on how DZ rebounds, and how Sauer holds up physically over 82 games. I'm also assuming that Gilroy isn't brought back. But we have some expendable parts that would make for a nice package for a decent 3-5 defenseman: Grachev, Christensen, picks, prospects.


This team didn't make the playoffs last season.

Relax.

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Old
12-29-2010, 10:20 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Are you taking salary into account when making this observation? Or is it just going strictly by play?

I mean, you're wrong on both counts, but you'd at least be in the right neighborhood if his paycheck is involved in your analysis.
WHAT?!?!? When you take salary into account Drury is the guy I'd least want on my team in the entire league. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. If someone else agrees with this statement I quoted (that Drury w/ contract is still more valuable than some other current Rangers forwards) I will think long and hard about vacating these boards for good. Not a threat, just for my own sanity it would be necessary.

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12-29-2010, 10:21 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by MSG the place to be View Post
Ok bro. As I said, those assists are no more impressive than any other moments by anyone else in the game. The second one especially he basically breathed on it to get it to artie who set up Dubi. TOI i dont even understand as being a case for someone being good, especially since 15 minutes is not a high number. +1, yippee, it was a 7-2 game and he played on a line with 2 of our most effective forwards in that game, not to mention +/- for one game is rather meaningless, especially when its only +1 and not like +4.

As for Drury being a faceoff king, well too bad there is no trap door he could slide down and have someone take his place immediately following the faceoff because he is a possession killer. Winning the faceoff and losing possession of the puck the next time you're involved in the play is a fail.
I get it. You don't like Drury or his salary. I understand. Still, you have to ask yourself how this guy was evaluated as one of the top U.S. born players in the world as late as last year's olympics, whether or not you're being fair when judging him as a player or judging him by salary, AND keeping in mind that the guy has only played 7 games this season.

The Rangers, to a man, say they're a better team with him than without him. So does the coach. I'll take their opinions over yours.

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12-29-2010, 10:28 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by MSG the place to be View Post
WHAT?!?!? When you take salary into account Drury is the guy I'd least want on my team in the entire league. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. If someone else agrees with this statement I quoted (that Drury w/ contract is still more valuable than some other current Rangers forwards) I will think long and hard about vacating these boards for good. Not a threat, just for my own sanity it would be necessary.
With comments like these, that's exactly what I think is going on, too.

I absolutely agree with the quoted statement.

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12-29-2010, 10:31 AM
  #37
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I understand the OP point about trying to get to the promised land sooner (i.e. in the next FEW yrs) as opposed to later.

A UFA move will have to be made at some point... wether it's for a center, a sniper, or a Dman will figure itself out over the course of next season in all likelihood.

Rozi's money will go somewhere, so will Drury's... I just don't think it'll be Brad Richards. I fully understand the crop (lacking) of UFA's the next few years but I just don't see how Richards is a fit right now, or in July... one of Rozi/Drury would have to go before their contract is up and I just don't see it happeneing.

That being said, Sather, Torts, et all KNOW they have to go for it before Hank is done... so you'll see SOMETHING happen in the next 2-3 years IMHO.

I'm just not sure Richards will be it.

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Old
12-29-2010, 10:31 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
I get it. You don't like Drury or his salary. I understand. Still, you have to ask yourself how this guy was evaluated as one of the top U.S. born players in the world as late as last year's olympics, whether or not you're being fair when judging him as a player or judging him by salary, AND keeping in mind that the guy has only played 7 games this season.

The Rangers, to a man, say they're a better team with him than without him. So does the coach. I'll take their opinions over yours.
This i'll buy. Some early trends that guys were showing have since faded away. Prust for example reminded me of the scene in Mighty Ducks where they are using eggs as pucks to learn soft hands. Now Prust is so confident with the puck hes even dekeing occasionally. Eminger used to be a penalty magnet, now hes playing smart hockey.

But I see what I see guys. If I see Drury screwing up all over the place I'm gonna call him out on it. I'll concede that I pay more attention and get more aggravated when it's him as opposed to others.

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12-29-2010, 10:35 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by MSG the place to be View Post

But I see what I see guys. If I see Drury screwing up all over the place I'm gonna call him out on it. I'll concede that I pay more attention and get more aggravated when it's him as opposed to others.
BINGO! I get it. I really do. But, we could have players a lot worse than Chris Drury on our roster. Just look across the river if you want to see some really overpaid/underperforming players that I'd rather stab myself with a pencil than have on our team over Drury. Hell, at least Drury works hard every shift.

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12-29-2010, 10:39 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by MSG the place to be View Post
This i'll buy. Some early trends that guys were showing have since faded away. Prust for example reminded me of the scene in Mighty Ducks where they are using eggs as pucks to learn soft hands. Now Prust is so confident with the puck hes even dekeing occasionally. Eminger used to be a penalty magnet, now hes playing smart hockey.

But I see what I see guys. If I see Drury screwing up all over the place I'm gonna call him out on it. I'll concede that I pay more attention and get more aggravated when it's him as opposed to others.
The problem isn't what you see. It's what you, and many others, don't see. It's unfortunate, since that's the part of the game that Drury excels at.

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12-29-2010, 10:42 AM
  #41
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BINGO! I get it. I really do. But, we could have players a lot worse than Chris Drury on our roster. Just look across the river if you want to see some really overpaid/underperforming players that I'd rather stab myself with a pencil than have on our team over Drury. Hell, at least Drury works hard every shift.
Drury is more overpaid than anyone across the river, over river, in the river. I can hedge my feelings about him being useless but I cant even budge from the fact that he is the most overpaid player in the league. There ARE worse contracts like Lecavalier because of their length but just dollars vs. performance and Drury is the most overpaid.

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12-29-2010, 10:44 AM
  #42
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Interesting post, and I agree with some of it, but generally, I disagree.

Here is why: "The youth movement has worked", but it's not complete yet. This is not the year to splurge and trade Anisimov. He is turning into a legit 2nd line center, and is what, 22 years old? Do NOT trade for Richards, he is not the difference between the cup and the golf course this season. Sure, it might help win another game or two in the playoffs, but we're not close enough just yet to do that move you suggested.

We have the assets, but we do not need to squander them. I am absolutely not willing to move Anisimov, the 2nd, etc etc for Richards since he could bolt, and even if he does resign, in all honesty, I'm not willing to give that up. He will be a UFA, and I say we go hard for him then, but not now.

Trading Rozi at this point is a must. If he made $2.5m-$3.5m, I'd be fine with him, but his cap hit prevents us from bringing in a better, probably cheaper option, thus opening up more space for Richards in the off-season. He is a decent 2nd pairing guy, and that's it (not to open up a can of worms or anything...)

The reason that I am against going nuts right now is because we have time. As others have said, patience is important. It's not like Lundqvist is 36 years old and Gaborik is 36 years old, and this is our last shot so we better do something. They are both in their primes, and will be for at least 4-5 more years.

The way I see it, this season is a huge step in the right direction. Trade Rozi, fill him with a better, cheaper veteran option at the deadline/offseason. At the deadline, see if there are any good cheap rentals that won't cost us a top asset (Anisimov, Kreider) and see what we can do...who knows, maybe we can make some noise with or without Richards.

Then, sign Richards in the offseason, sign a good, physical veteran defender, and watch the kids keep progressing. I think next year's performance will really be the key. I think next year we'll be a real contender, but probably still not in the upper echelon. BUT, then the young guns will really be coming out...Stepan will have another year, Anisimov another year, Dubinsky, Callahan, Sauer, Staal, MDZ, Zucc, hopefully McD/Valentenko...2012-2013 is the year that we really should be looking at...

So far, what we're doing is working. All of our important players are young/in their prime/entering their prime. STAY THE COURSE for another 2 seasons, and turn this team into a sustainable contender for years to come.

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12-29-2010, 10:45 AM
  #43
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The problem isn't what you see. It's what you, and many others, don't see. It's unfortunate, since that's the part of the game that Drury excels at.
Something about that statement makes me think of the word intangibles. Cant put my finger on it.

I'm sick of intangibles. Get me goals, points, and dominant play from one of the top 20 paid players in the league. You know how when you check the box score for other teams and its like you already know who the goalscorer is before you look. I want one of those guys, not someone with 0 goals who will top out this year at 7 or 8.

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12-29-2010, 10:46 AM
  #44
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I haven't read through the entire thread but I will say I don't want the Rangers to trade for Richards. Now I know he is EXACTLY what this team needs but I don't want to give up the assets it will take. The Rangers can wait until July 1st to fill the 1st line center need. I don't want that cap hit on the books with so many quality in house RFA's to sign.

What the Rangers should do is trade for another defenseman. I don't think Richards puts this team over the top this year. I'm not sure the Rangers with the defense we have can sustain the play they have showed so far this year. I could be wrong, enfact I hope I'm wrong but call me skeptical I guess. My fear is we trade for Richards and we go from a 7th-6th seed to 4th-5th seed in the Eastern Conference. Is that enough to trade Anisimov +?

As a fanbase we need a little more patience. Just a little, I don't think we are that far away and it's an exciting time to be a fan of this team.


As far as the Drury stuff goes it's gotten to the point of crazy. It's been 7 friggin games so far this year. He looks good on faceoffs and in his own end. He isn't a scorer and when people start realizing what Drury is vs what he isn't they will be better off. Is he overpaid? Obviously but he still brings something to this team and dressing room.

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12-29-2010, 10:54 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by MSG the place to be View Post
Something about that statement makes me think of the word intangibles. Cant put my finger on it.

I'm sick of intangibles. Get me goals, points, and dominant play from one of the top 20 paid players in the league. You know how when you check the box score for other teams and its like you already know who the goalscorer is before you look. I want one of those guys, not someone with 0 goals who will top out this year at 7 or 8.
So once again, you aren't interested in talking about the way Chris Drury plays, just his salary.

Maybe the reason you're sick of intangibles is because you don't have any appreciation for them or the incredibly important purpose they play in this sport, perhaps more so than any other team sport. Without those intangibles, goals, assists, and most importantly, wins, don't happen.

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12-29-2010, 11:11 AM
  #46
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So once again, you aren't interested in talking about the way Chris Drury plays, just his salary.

Maybe the reason you're sick of intangibles is because you don't have any appreciation for them or the incredibly important purpose they play in this sport, perhaps more so than any other team sport. Without those intangibles, goals, assists, and most importantly, wins, don't happen.
Were we missing them before he came back? Its just convenient to cite his intangibles because of the empty pit of tangibles. Why does Drury get to hog all the intangibles while the players with tangibles don't get any?

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12-29-2010, 11:12 AM
  #47
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There is One HUGE 300lb gorilla in the room when it comes to deciding to "go for it" now vs. being patient and that is the NHLPA and the collective bargaining agreement.

The Rangers will need to be very careful about what moves they make in the near future as no on really knows how that is going to play out.

Buyouts, cap ceilings etc etc. Any advantage the rangers have built up through the youth movement could be lost if major changes are made to the CBA, or good forbid another lockout

With the CBA set to expire in 2012 this falls smack in the middle of any of the Rangers current plans.

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12-29-2010, 11:18 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagoon44 View Post
No faceoffs alone do not make him valuable. he is a heart and sould broken finger kind of guy
OK, take a look at the rest of our centers faceoff percentages and then look at his. If you don't think faceoffs alone make him more valuable than Derek Boogaard, Sean Avery, Erik Christensen, Alexander Frolov, Artem Anisimov, and arguably Ruslan Fedotenko you're off your rocker.

I guess if Drury got into pre-meditated, pointless fights his value would be higher though, right?

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12-29-2010, 11:36 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by MSG the place to be View Post
Something about that statement makes me think of the word intangibles. Cant put my finger on it.

I'm sick of intangibles. Get me goals, points, and dominant play from one of the top 20 paid players in the league. You know how when you check the box score for other teams and its like you already know who the goalscorer is before you look. I want one of those guys, not someone with 0 goals who will top out this year at 7 or 8.
It's finally a team that has guys to go get goals, points and "dominant" play where you don't have to rely on the Drury's and Gomez's of the world for it.

The sooner you accept the fact that it's Sather's fault Drury makes so much money, the sooner you can begin to appreciate Drury and accept the reality that he's here until his contract expires, he isn't a bad player, and has a lot to offer this team. It's a moot point that he should be making a lot less, because he's not. That can't change.

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12-29-2010, 11:38 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by MSG the place to be View Post
Were we missing them before he came back? Its just convenient to cite his intangibles because of the empty pit of tangibles. Why does Drury get to hog all the intangibles while the players with tangibles don't get any?
At least four different people here have pointed out to you that our faceoff percentage was awful without Drury and that no one else on the team wins more draws than they lose. Losing more than half your faceoffs and losing key faceoffs costs teams games the same way lack of puck possession, lack of a forecheck, etc. costs a team a game.

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