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The Process is almost complete: Why we need to go for it now

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Old
12-29-2010, 12:39 PM
  #51
Miller Time NYR
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Now here's a question would you have planned that all out if we were on a 2,3,4 game loosing streak?
That's all fine and dandy if the stars aligned and that all worked out but a lot of that starting offense is resting on marginal improvements from dz,stepan,sauer,zucca, and kreider being NHL ready, that's a lot of uncertainty not saying i don't think itl happen but I'm not saying I'm 100% sure theyll all take marginal steps forward. To us this is the best team, and postion we've been in in a long time as a team but I'm a little skeptical we can stand toe to toewith Philly,Washington,Boston, and Tampa in a 7 game playoff series. For this team to be a contender we HAVE to add a gamechanger like Richards it's a must, gabby can't be the only gamechanger out there like Crosby,malkin/st Louis,stamkos/Carter,giroux.
dubi,stepan,anisimov,Cali all put up respectable points but their collectively nothing over the top that every other good team doesn't have. I want Richards but I'm not sure how we get him, I'm not one for blowing away assets like anisimov for him, I say let this current team make a playoff run from a 4-6 sead and evaluate our scoring, and contendability then, maybe they prove were a Richards away from a cup or rather prove our core can step it up and Richards isn't a must have and rather would be welcomed at a relatively sane price.

Staal Girardi
DZ Sauer
Valentenko Eminger
As much as I'd like the think it is that is not a cup contending defense

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12-29-2010, 12:52 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Those starting six defenseman aren't going to get it done.

Which is precisely why we are not there yet and should stay the course. No way I trade a first round pick in this upcoming draft unless it is in a package to move up in the draft. Losing patience and going for it too soon is what plagued this organization for decades. We need a five star recruit just like Pitt and Wash. and Boston have, to legitimately compete with them for the next decade. I want a team that has a shot for ten years, not one.

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12-29-2010, 12:57 PM
  #53
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I think all of Colorado, L.A., Vancouver, and Detroit would have little to no problem sweeping the Rangers in a 7 game series. We have a hard enough time trying to beat Philly who themselves, looked like a completely different (and inferior) team last night. After watching them get spanked around by the Canucks, I realize we still have a way's to go.

Dallas is right up there in the standings with these high caliber teams. If the Stars make it out of the West, I think they'll win the Cup. Trading Richards now, and you have no chance. If you're one of those bottom 3 teams in the West it's a much different story. At the very least, I think Dallas owes it to their fans to make a run for the Cup this year, so trading Richards would be a huge mistake on their part.

As for the Rangers, I especially wouldn't give up assets for a guy who may just decide to go back to Dallas next year after helping us get to the second round of the playoffs (and that's it). Next, watch Anisimov become a star there, and help them win a cup like Zubov did .

Around the league, I think many teams at the top have players who are reaching their respective peaks. Vancouver for instance, is a team that keeps sticking with their top younger players (who are now all grown up) year after year and inevitably, It's going to pay off for them (imo).

I think the Rangers should just keep what they have and let the team continue to grow and get better year after year (while still committing to player development, good scouting, and adding more and more young talent through the draft). It's also probably the best way to avoid these long agonizing playoff droughts, horrific player contracts, and bad trades.

After a few years, our young kids won't be young any more and we'll be competing for a top 3 seed in the playoff bracket every season, instead of just trying to sneak in at #7 or #8. At this point, it will be easier to assess exactly what deals (if any) need to be made to get the Rangers over the hump and in a position to contend for the Cup every year.

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12-29-2010, 12:58 PM
  #54
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Im one of the most positive posters on here...but lets get real..were not close to being a Cup team. No way I trade AA he is a key part of this team...one of the best young def forwards I have seen in a long time....... let the drury/rosi contracts run out....their vet exp will be good for the kids...its only a couple of years left...just in time for the kids to be peaking........maybe Sather had a plan all this time after all.

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12-29-2010, 01:02 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by MSG the place to be View Post
WHAT?!?!? When you take salary into account Drury is the guy I'd least want on my team in the entire league. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. If someone else agrees with this statement I quoted (that Drury w/ contract is still more valuable than some other current Rangers forwards) I will think long and hard about vacating these boards for good. Not a threat, just for my own sanity it would be necessary.
You're not crazy...the team started the season pretty good without Drury "in the room", and he carries a pretty big price tag for just winning faceoffs...we could find a cheaper faceoff guy, Malhotra and Konopka are Top 5 F/O guys and Manny makes 2.5 and Konopka 600K.


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Old
12-29-2010, 01:02 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by MSG the place to be View Post
Were we missing them before he came back? Its just convenient to cite his intangibles because of the empty pit of tangibles. Why does Drury get to hog all the intangibles while the players with tangibles don't get any?
Wow. Do you watch the games and keep track of the lineup?

As valuable as Ryan Callahan is to the squad, you hardly notice that he's not in the lineup because, coincidentally, Drury came back at the time that he got injured. That's a lot of intangibles (Callahan) to replace and Drury did so without missing a beat.

Also, the Rangers being 4-2-1 since Drury is back in the lineup doesn't really help your argument.

Also, yes, I'd rather have Drury than any of Rolston, Brodeur, or Elias (though, this one is close) and I'd rather have his contract for another 1.5 years than Kovalchuk's for the next 14.

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12-29-2010, 01:04 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by gravytrain6t View Post
I think all of Colorado, L.A., Vancouver, and Detroit would have little to no problem sweeping the Rangers in a 7 game series. We have a hard enough time trying to beat Philly who themselves, looked like a completely different (and inferior) team last night. After watching them get spanked around by the Canucks, I realize we still have a way's to go.

Dallas is right up there in the standings with these high caliber teams. If the Stars make it out of the West, I think they'll win the Cup. Trading Richards now, and you have no chance. If you're one of those bottom 3 teams in the West it's a much different story. At the very least, I think Dallas owes it to their fans to make a run for the Cup this year, so trading Richards would be a huge mistake on their part.

As for the Rangers, I especially wouldn't give up assets for a guy who may just decide to go back to Dallas next year after helping us get to the second round of the playoffs (and that's it). Next, watch Anisimov become a star there, and help them win a cup like Zubov did .

Around the league, I think many teams at the top have players who are reaching their respective peaks. Vancouver for instance, is a team that keeps sticking with their top younger players (who are now all grown up) year after year and inevitably, It's going to pay off for them (imo).

I think the Rangers should just keep what they have and let the team continue to grow and get better year after year (while still committing to player development, good scouting, and adding more and more young talent through the draft). It's also probably the best way to avoid these long agonizing playoff droughts, horrific player contracts, and bad trades.

After a few years, our young kids won't be young any more and we'll be competing for a top 3 seed in the playoff bracket every season, instead of just trying to sneak in at #7 or #8. At this point, it will be easier to assess exactly what deals (if any) need to be made to get the Rangers over the hump and in a position to contend for the Cup every year.
I think you haven't seen much of L.A. or Colorado play this season if you a) want to group them in with Detroit and Vancouver and b) think the Rangers wouldn't at the least win a game in a 7 game series against them.

I also think you probably haven't seen many western conference games in general for you to ignore Dallas. I get that they don't have the goaltending LA or Colorado do, but they've been the much better and much more consistent team.

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Old
12-29-2010, 01:08 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Wow. Do you watch the games and keep track of the lineup?

As valuable as Ryan Callahan is to the squad, you hardly notice that he's not in the lineup because, coincidentally, Drury came back at the time that he got injured. That's a lot of intangibles (Callahan) to replace and Drury did so without missing a beat.

Also, the Rangers being 4-2-1 since Drury is back in the lineup doesn't really help your argument.

Also, yes, I'd rather have Drury than any of Rolston, Brodeur, or Elias (though, this one is close) and I'd rather have his contract for another 1.5 years than Kovalchuk's for the next 14.
Intangibles are great but they don't always pan out...see the 00-01 through 03-04 NYR who had the Captain in their lineup. The teams identity has been formed with everyone sacrificing their bodies for the good of the team, did Drury help that of course he did, but now that the identity has taken shape every one will do that and the need for "intangibles" and a F/O specialist at that salary are no longer needed.

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12-29-2010, 01:08 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by RangerFan10 View Post
I think you haven't seen much of L.A. or Colorado play this season if you a) want to group them in with Detroit and Vancouver and b) think the Rangers wouldn't at the least win a game in a 7 game series against them.

I also think you probably haven't seen many western conference games in general for you to ignore Dallas. I get that they don't have the goaltending LA or Colorado do, but they've been the much better and much more consistent team.
I think you didn't watch a second of the Avalanche, Red Wings game the other night. That team is good. Detroit was lucky to win in OT. So maybe the Rangers win a game!

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12-29-2010, 01:10 PM
  #60
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As I think about it more and more I begin to agree that things need to be done to really take a shot with Gaborik and Lundqvist before their primes are over.

It needs to be similar to what was done to maximize our opportunity with Jagr the final years here. Nylander and Straka were the core elements aside from Jagr and Lundqvist...then you added Shanahan, Avery, Cullen, etc. and gave yourself a team that IMO save a couple of bad breaks in Buffalo probably made it to the stanley cup finals because I believe we matched up better against Ottawa than Buffalo did that year. Albeit, our chances against Anaheim wouldn't have been good, you never know what's going to happen in a 7 game series.

Similar things need to happen now. The only difference to me is the glaring hole at 1C that wasn't here that year with Jagr. We also probably have more of the Shanahan and Cullen type players in place, however.

If we could find a way to get a 1C and a top 4 defenseman like Jovonavski, not that it looks all that possible, I think this team can give any team in the league a run for their money in a 7 game series and can at least go deep into the playoffs. Maybe get to the conference finals finally.

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12-29-2010, 01:12 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gravytrain6t View Post
I think you didn't watch a second of the Avalanche, Red Wings game the other night. That team is good. Detroit was lucky to win in OT. So maybe the Rangers win a game!
I'm not ready to judge a team based on one game. I've seen Colorado multiple times this season, they have their moments just like the Rangers do, good and bad. You think a fan that doesn't see the Rangers on a regular basis doesn't think they're better than they are when they see them beat Pittsburgh, in Pittsburgh, in OT after they lost a 1-0 lead with a few minutes to go(referencing the Staal shorthanded goal game)?

I still wouldn't group us in with Pittsburgh.


Last edited by RangerFan10: 12-29-2010 at 01:27 PM.
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Old
12-29-2010, 01:13 PM
  #62
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Intangibles are great but they don't always pan out...see the 00-01 through 03-04 NYR who had the Captain in their lineup. The teams identity has been formed with everyone sacrificing their bodies for the good of the team, did Drury help that of course he did, but now that the identity has taken shape every one will do that and the need for "intangibles" and a F/O specialist at that salary are no longer needed.
Okay, but if you comb back and read this thread you'll see that I specifically said that Drury is valuable to this team and shouldn't be judged solely on salary - which is an argument that we've collectively been through a thousand times and isn't the argument I was making. The original point of contention was that Drury is/was the 13th best forward on this team - which, quite simply, isn't true. Salary isn't/wasn't part of the discussion.

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12-29-2010, 01:26 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by NHRangerfan View Post
You're not crazy...the team started the season pretty good without Drury "in the room", and he carries a pretty big price tag for just winning faceoffs...we could find a cheaper faceoff guy, Malhotra and Konopka are Top 5 F/O guys and Manny makes 2.5 and Konopka 600K.
the difference being Drury is already here and cannot be moved. Of course we could find a cheaper faceoff guy, the fact of the matter is Drury's here, with a full NMC, and brings value to the team. To me, that's where the debate ends, because you're just stating obvious things. Of course there are players making less money than Drury that do the same things he does. That isn't the argument. No one is trying to argue that Drury deserves the contract he has. Not one person. But to say he's the 13th valuable forward on the team is preposterous, and the most glaring reason why would be how bad everyone else on the roster is at faceoffs.

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12-29-2010, 01:27 PM
  #64
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Please do not trade Anisimov

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12-29-2010, 01:31 PM
  #65
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I think this team has the depth and talent to compete in the playoffs.

Also, not many teams have a goalie the caliber of Hank in nets. This is a huge advantage that may offset whatever weakness this team "supposedly" has.

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12-29-2010, 01:39 PM
  #66
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Okay, but if you comb back and read this thread you'll see that I specifically said that Drury is valuable to this team and shouldn't be judged solely on salary - which is an argument that we've collectively been through a thousand times and isn't the argument I was making. The original point of contention was that Drury is/was the 13th best forward on this team - which, quite simply, isn't true. Salary isn't/wasn't part of the discussion.
I read the entire thread and understand you're point...I believe you can't have a discussion in a hard salary cap league about a player without $ being part of the discussion, IMHO. I like Drury but I don't see the same value in him that you do.

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12-29-2010, 01:39 PM
  #67
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Drury isn't getting bought out. That kinda throws a wrench into your plan. I don't think its possible as I think he has to be put on waivers to be bought out (that NMC everyone forgets about is so tricky).
He has to be waived to be bought out, but his NMC doesn't prevent that. The NMC only prevents him from being sent down or traded without his permission.

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12-29-2010, 01:43 PM
  #68
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Give up assets for a soon-to-be UFA, playing for a team that's 2nd in the West?

What a ****ing genius idea! And original! Totally doable!

We're buying out our captain's final year too? And trading Rozsival? Sounds like someone was hitting the pipe last night playing too much NHL-11.
Best quote I've read on the internets today.

If the OP can figure his way out of Drury's NMC and post relevant salary projections I would be able to take his lengthy argument seriously.

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12-29-2010, 01:43 PM
  #69
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I'm not ready to judge a team based on one game. I've seen Colorado multiple times this season, they have their moments just like the Rangers do, good and bad. You think a fan that doesn't see the Rangers on a regular basis doesn't think they're better than they are when they see them beat Pittsburgh, in Pittsburgh, in OT after they lost a 1-0 lead with a few minutes to go(referencing the Staal shorthanded goal game)?
But you were ready to judge what teams and games I've been watching and haven't been watching. Just a difference in opinion. In a 7 game series you take the Rangers, I'll take the Av's (as well as the other team's I mentioned). The Rangers have played all well and good when it comes to both Alberta teams, borderline playoff teams, and Phoenix, yet can't beat a team like Columbus, lost to the Av's, lost to St. Louis, and that's it as of now. You agree that the Rangers have their moments like Colorado, but aren't up there with the Wings and Vancouver. So we're not consistent? I agree. Haven't we learned from the passed that adding star players from other teams might not be the best way to go? Not even in the short run?
Would I take Richards? Yes. It depends who we're giving up. But for the most part, I'm tired of letting good young players go and having nothing to show for it. Now the organization is finally committing to scouting well and developing from within. Letting the kids grow up together as a team which, to me is a lot more important than adding a star player who might be the next messiah! But I doubt he will be, because even with him, I just don't think we're good enough to win the Cup. Plus who exactly are we giving up here? And will Dallas think it's fair. I know nothing of Richards and his attitude toward NY and playing for the Rangers.
Not to mention, why is Dallas looking to trade this guy in the first place when they're practically in first place? If Ribeiro is available at a lower cost, I might go for that. But he handles the puck so well, I don't know why Dallas would want to give him up either.

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12-29-2010, 01:47 PM
  #70
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As I think about it more and more I begin to agree that things need to be done to really take a shot with Gaborik and Lundqvist before their primes are over.

It needs to be similar to what was done to maximize our opportunity with Jagr the final years here. Nylander and Straka were the core elements aside from Jagr and Lundqvist...then you added Shanahan, Avery, Cullen, etc. and gave yourself a team that IMO save a couple of bad breaks in Buffalo probably made it to the stanley cup finals because I believe we matched up better against Ottawa than Buffalo did that year. Albeit, our chances against Anaheim wouldn't have been good, you never know what's going to happen in a 7 game series.
We got Shanny and Cullen in UFA and Avery for Jason Ward and MAC who was like a Dale Weise level prospect.

The Derek Morris and Antropov trades were ones where we gave up young players/assets.

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12-29-2010, 01:53 PM
  #71
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If we can add a Brad Richards (either for nothing but cap-space, or for reasonable assets that we have the depth to replace), it's much more likely that we could get through the Penguins, Flyers, Bruins, Caps in a 7-game series. Those are the four teams I see as being a step ahead of us right now. The gap isn't that big even now, but it certainly gets closer if we add that experienced, top-flight center like Richards.


Brad Richards for Rozsival, McDonagh, Anisimov, 2nd 2011 (becomes a 1st if Richards re-signs)

4th 2011, low-level prospect for Jim Vandermeer
Future considerations for Jason Strudwick

If we make the above moves, here's this year's lineup:

Prospal Richards Gaborik
Dubinsky Stepan Zuccarello
Fedotenko Drury Callahan
Prust Boyle Avery
Christensen

Staal Girardi
DZ Sauer
Gilroy Eminger
Vandermeer
Strudwick
1) Drury has a 7m hit but only a 5m salary next season, for that amount there are many teams that don't spend to the cap and therefore can't or won't be going after high priced free agents and will be willing to make a deal for Drury. However, nmc would need to be waived.
2) Same goes for Rozi who carries a 5m hit and 3m salary next year, also very tradeable and attractive at that price.
3) If you're going for it NOW, trading Rozsival off this defense, doesn't make the team better, certainly not when you're adding Strudwick to the lineup.
4) Moving out prospects like McD and AA as well as a 2nd round pick which have brought in players like AA, Stepan, Dubinsky, and Sauer should be really considered strongly before they're just tossed around on guys on expiring contracts and can be sought after this coming summer instead
5) Dallas is in a playoff race themselves, why do they want to trade their top center and risk making the playoffs and losing that playoff revenue?

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12-29-2010, 01:55 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by DelZottoFutureNorris View Post
If we make the above moves, here's this year's lineup:

Prospal Richards Gaborik
Dubinsky Stepan Zuccarello
Fedotenko Drury Callahan
Prust Boyle Avery
Christensen

Staal Girardi
DZ Sauer
Gilroy Eminger
Vandermeer
Strudwick
That lineup still can't take Pittsburgh in a 7 game series, so, IF the Ranger can't avoid a 1st or 2nd round match up AND a lower seed doesn't upset them, the Rangers have no chance of being the Conference Champs. Parting with a 1st rounder, McDonagh and Anisimov for an ECF's appearance does not interest me in the least.

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12-29-2010, 01:57 PM
  #73
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the difference being Drury is already here and cannot be moved. Of course we could find a cheaper faceoff guy, the fact of the matter is Drury's here, with a full NMC, and brings value to the team. To me, that's where the debate ends, because you're just stating obvious things. Of course there are players making less money than Drury that do the same things he does. That isn't the argument. No one is trying to argue that Drury deserves the contract he has. Not one person. But to say he's the 13th valuable forward on the team is preposterous, and the most glaring reason why would be how bad everyone else on the roster is at faceoffs.
I don't totally agree with him being #13 but let's play Torts...who sits when Callahan comes back to make room for Drury. Torts has already said it wont be one of the kids...so Drury takes what spot EK? Avery?

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12-29-2010, 02:00 PM
  #74
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as much as i like richards, i don't think it would be prudent to spend the money on him.

Stepan, Anisimov, Boyle as our top 3 centers for the next 5-10 years is OK by me. let's hold that 7 mil for a winger who can score 50 or a norris worthy d man.

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12-29-2010, 02:01 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
That lineup still can't take Pittsburgh in a 7 game series, so, IF the Ranger can't avoid a 1st or 2nd round match up AND a lower seed doesn't upset them, the Rangers have no chance of being the Conference Champs. Parting with a 1st rounder, McDonagh and Anisimov for an ECF's appearance does not interest me in the least.
While his lineup isn't completely realistic, a very similar looking team might not be able to beat Pittsburgh, but they'd basically be one big defenseman away at that point, with Drury salary coming off the books soon and a lot of depth in the organization to make trades with. That's how teams take the next step into Washington/Philly/LA level. It's not exactly Pittsburgh, Detroit or Vancouver, but it's not bad. Better than being worse than them, which is what will continue to be the case if we don't get Richards, IMO. Not like we're getting a Crosby/Malkin/Lidstrom/Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Sedin/Kesler of our own.

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