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ADM cross ice hockey

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Old
12-31-2010, 11:40 PM
  #1
Grave77digger
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ADM cross ice hockey

Does anyone have any kids currently playing full ice games as a mite player? Seems all the parents on my kids Mite team are going crazy because the kids will be forced into playing cross ice games after already playing a season of full ice. I dont have much of a problem with it as they do, but the seem to to be the psycho OMG ALPHA PARENTs who think they know best. My kid (6yo) will be upset about it though I know that. Any input from on ice coaches? Would be silly for them to take a step backwards.

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01-01-2011, 10:10 AM
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frito
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My youngest is a second year squirt but I would have loved for the ADM to have existed for both my kids when they were coming up. I was first introduced to it at a level IV coaching clinic in 2009 and thought it was great. As soon as I got back I brought it up to the president of our association. We are gradually introducing it in an attempt to get over the reluctance.

As I said, I really don't understand why so many people are up in arms about. A few points:
  1. Baseball, basketball and soccer all decrease the playing field for the younger kids. You don't see 7 year olds running a 60 feet base line, why should they skate 200 feet?
  2. The cross ice games gets the kids used to playing in tighter quarters as they will when they are bigger. There is just too much wasted space on a full sheet for younger kids.
  3. As with size, rules in other sports are gradually introduced as kids age. For example, in baseball it starts with coach pitch. Gradually kid pitch is introduced, then base stealing etc. They really don't need to worry about offsides and icing at this age. Let them first develop the skills then introduce more complex areas of the game.
  4. Kids can get a lot more ice time and a lot more puck touches for the same or even less money than they do with full ice practices and games. Hockey more than most any other sport needs to be practiced more frequently on its natural "court" because of that 1/8" piece of steel under the kids' feet. This allows them to hit the ice more often.
  5. It places the focus back on development and FUN as it should be at this age.

I personally would take the ADM a step further. In soccer they use smaller nets for the younger kids. In basketball they use smaller balls and lower nets. I think they should introduce a net about half the size of a regulation net for the younger kids. It will help the kids shooting skills while at the same time not completely demoralizing the kids who are giving goalie a try.

I'll tell you what, I voluntered at an ADM demonstration for our association that one of the USA Hockey ADM gurus ran. I'd say well over half of the kids who showed up played squirt travel. When they were leaving the ice they were very sweaty and all smiles. I think that right there pretty much says it all.

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01-01-2011, 02:00 PM
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beth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post
When they were leaving the ice they were very sweaty and all smiles. I think that right there pretty much says it all.
This. I assistant coach my son's mite team. We practice/play on a small ice sheet, and even then we split it up for drills and scrimmages. The kids have so much more fun playing in a smaller space. The action is faster and they get to battle for the puck a lot more. I'm so glad that our hockey program is so ADM-friendly, and that it started up in time for my son to benefit from it.

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01-01-2011, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post
I personally would take the ADM a step further. In soccer they use smaller nets for the younger kids. In basketball they use smaller balls and lower nets. I think they should introduce a net about half the size of a regulation net for the younger kids. It will help the kids shooting skills while at the same time not completely demoralizing the kids who are giving goalie a try.
Actually, that's precisely what the IIHF recommends.

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01-02-2011, 01:41 PM
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I coach an Initiation team in Alberta although we call ourselves Tom Thumb because our team is mostly 6 year olds in their second or third year of hockey. We play full ice games, although we are in one tournament later this year that will be half ice. I like full ice for games because it allows players a little more time and space with the puck. Is there really a big benefit to more touches on the puck when all the player has time to do is clear it blindly up ice? I definitely see the advantage of close quarters games and use them as scrimmages in practice often but I find that at this age games are about excitement as much as development. A player who is not excited about hockey will not remain a player for long.

This link is to Hockey Canada's Initiation manual, pages 10 and 11 discuss several models to design an Initiation program around based on the makeup of your team, interesting reading if you are a coach at this level.
http://www.hockeycanada.ca/index.php...95/la_id/1.htm

We do play away games in two arenas that have slightly smaller ice surfaces (70'x160' or so) and these are great for our guys but they are still way bigger than half ice and have proper boards all the way around. As for decreasing the net size, this seems a little silly to me, although if you took away the top 12" where one in 20 kids can raise it and the goalie can't reach that might be an OK idea.

That brings to mind another question, do the rest of you assign positions at this age or dress goalies? We split our team into two groups and play one as forward and switch them every 4-6 weeks with the defenceman taking turns at goal rotating shift by shift (no goal pads, just a goalie stick). We are considering assigning positions at the end of the year based on where they have played best and playing a tournament or two like that. Hope you don't mind the hijack OP.


Last edited by madmutter: 01-02-2011 at 02:00 PM.
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01-02-2011, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madmutter View Post
That brings to mind another question, do the rest of you assign positions at this age or dress goalies? We split our team into two groups and play one as forward and switch them every 4-6 weeks with the defenceman taking turns at goal rotating shift by shift (no goal pads, just a goalie stick). We are considering assigning positions at the end of the year based on where they have played best and playing a tournament or two like that. Hope you don't mind the hijack OP.
I think it is way too young to define positions at this age. The kids are just learning how to skate, stickhandle, pass and shoot. The last thing they need to consider is being pigeonholed into a position for the rest of they playing "careers". We rotate positions every game. Every kid that wants to play goalie gets a chance to play goalie. We have a different goalie each game. There is way too much emphasis on position and systems at an early age. At this age the focus should be about skills. The systems should not be a focus until they have the proper skills to execute the systems.

Heck, I am currently coaching a bantam house team. Over 1/4 of the team is new to hockey this season. Since I have so many new players I am even moving them around at this age in hopes I can find a decent mix by the end of the season. It also helps them understand how to better play or defend against a position if they have actually played it.

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01-02-2011, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post
My youngest is a second year squirt but I would have loved for the ADM to have existed for both my kids when they were coming up. I was first introduced to it at a level IV coaching clinic in 2009 and thought it was great. As soon as I got back I brought it up to the president of our association. We are gradually introducing it in an attempt to get over the reluctance.

As I said, I really don't understand why so many people are up in arms about. A few points:
  1. Baseball, basketball and soccer all decrease the playing field for the younger kids. You don't see 7 year olds running a 60 feet base line, why should they skate 200 feet?
  2. The cross ice games gets the kids used to playing in tighter quarters as they will when they are bigger. There is just too much wasted space on a full sheet for younger kids.
  3. As with size, rules in other sports are gradually introduced as kids age. For example, in baseball it starts with coach pitch. Gradually kid pitch is introduced, then base stealing etc. They really don't need to worry about offsides and icing at this age. Let them first develop the skills then introduce more complex areas of the game.
  4. Kids can get a lot more ice time and a lot more puck touches for the same or even less money than they do with full ice practices and games. Hockey more than most any other sport needs to be practiced more frequently on its natural "court" because of that 1/8" piece of steel under the kids' feet. This allows them to hit the ice more often.
  5. It places the focus back on development and FUN as it should be at this age.

I personally would take the ADM a step further. In soccer they use smaller nets for the younger kids. In basketball they use smaller balls and lower nets. I think they should introduce a net about half the size of a regulation net for the younger kids. It will help the kids shooting skills while at the same time not completely demoralizing the kids who are giving goalie a try.

I'll tell you what, I voluntered at an ADM demonstration for our association that one of the USA Hockey ADM gurus ran. I'd say well over half of the kids who showed up played squirt travel. When they were leaving the ice they were very sweaty and all smiles. I think that right there pretty much says it all.
I agree with all of this. I'm one of the coaches for my son's Mite team. We often have up to 3 cross ice games going at once and at least one of the games utilize a smaller goal (mainly b/c we don't have 3 pairs of reg goals). I think this falls in line with the ADM concept of "smaller spaces heads up hockey" our kids are now trying to place a shot on goal instead of throwing a puck at a large net thinking they'll get a goal with minimum effort.

We have been fortunate enough of not having to "sell" the concept to the parents. Most of my players are first year mites and they have improved substantially, learning how to move in small spaces and moving the puck quickly utilizing the ADM.

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01-02-2011, 04:05 PM
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We don't teach positions on our mite minor team yet. It's really just for the faceoffs that they get into position, and it changes with every faceoff. They take turns being in goal too, in just their regular gear. Instead of positions, their coach just teaches them generally how to be on the ice - like how to battle for a puck in the corner, or, don't pass the puck in front of your own goal, send it up the boards instead - that sort of stuff.

At this age, you really just want to make it as fun as possible while sneakily teaching them skill building and keeping them moving.

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01-03-2011, 11:18 AM
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Just had a read of the USA Hockey ADM literature and I have to say that while I thought this cross ice business was OK for IP (5-6 year olds) it doesn't seem right for Novice (7-8 year olds). I find it strange that USA Hockey seems to have one age group all the way up to 8 year olds. In our minor hockey association in a town with a population base of around 10,000 we have a team of 2005&2006's, two teams of mostly 2004's and three teams of 2002&2003's. Do you guys really have 4 year olds along with kids who turn 9 before the end of the season all playing in Mites? On the same teams?

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01-03-2011, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by madmutter View Post
Just had a read of the USA Hockey ADM literature and I have to say that while I thought this cross ice business was OK for IP (5-6 year olds) it doesn't seem right for Novice (7-8 year olds). I find it strange that USA Hockey seems to have one age group all the way up to 8 year olds. In our minor hockey association in a town with a population base of around 10,000 we have a team of 2005&2006's, two teams of mostly 2004's and three teams of 2002&2003's. Do you guys really have 4 year olds along with kids who turn 9 before the end of the season all playing in Mites? On the same teams?
it can be set up so that it is stil kids of similar ages on the ice. In other words, a group of 5 - 6 year olds, another session for 7 - 8 year olds and another of 9 - 10 year olds. The program is designed for about 60 kids ot be on the ice at once. Logistically one would need to split the groups by age just to accomodate the number of kids. As I mentioned in a previous group, we put on a free demo that was attended primarily by squirt travel players. They were very sweaty and all smiles as they were coming off the ice.

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01-03-2011, 01:51 PM
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Madmutter - we have mite minor and mite major teams, and also a beginner program. Mites is split roughly by age/size/ability into minor/major, and then when we practice, those teams are sorted again into small groups of 4 to 6 kids for the drill stations, so everyone is practicing with other kids that match. 4-5 year olds are usually in the beginner program just learning skills instead of on teams. After about 6 months - year of beginners, they go to evaluations to see whether they should be on mite minor (which is really a lot like beginners but with a few games in there) or on mite major.

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01-03-2011, 08:02 PM
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I am in my second year as a mite coach. In our district they limit our mite teams to 15 full ice games and as many cross ice games as you want. However the cross ice game are usally 3 on 3 or 4 on 4. I was one of those that were against it when it was first brought to us. I have since changed my mind. When it comes to the better skaters out there they just skate around everyone and don't or can't learn how to pass because no one can keep up with them. In cross ice games they have to learn how to skate and pass better and the better skaters out there can't just skate around everyone because of the tight space.

We had one player last year that was scoring 6-9 goals a game because nobody could keep up with him. He got put in a show case league in the spring after the season was over. I talked with his dad and he said his son almost quit hockey because everyone was more skilled than he was and he didn't score as much.

I think the cross ice is really good because half way through the season kids start to get bored doing drills and this gives them the fun to just go out there and play.

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01-03-2011, 09:18 PM
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ADM is the way to go for kids. more time with the puck on the stick is better for all kids.

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01-04-2011, 01:21 AM
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For the US posters, how has your enrollment been since the inception of the ADM?

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01-04-2011, 08:27 AM
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For the US posters, how has your enrollment been since the inception of the ADM?
Tough year to tell as for us it is a 'transition year'. Our District still has Mite Majors playing full ice, Mite Minors playing cross-ice, and three or so teams of Mites playing in the travel leagues as Squirts (with varying degrees of success).

Next year when it goes cross ice for all 8 and Unders we'll know. Interesting for us the town/house leagues don't need to go ADM and this year haven't. If they don't next year we may very well see migration of the more experienced Mites to full ice at the house level leaving a weird inversion - the more experienced players will be on the house teams with unrestricted numbers of full ice games and the travel clubs will have more developmental players.

I like the tenets of ADM, I think the implementation has been poor at best. All kids learn more and have more fun with small area games and come off the ice happy. My Bantam just finished up a 3x3 tournament this holiday weekend and reminded me this is his favorite part of hockey. The question is not whether there are more smiles during unstructured small area games - there are, maybe in no small part because of less coaching and parental pressure . The question is should hockey for the most experienced youngsters be limited to ONLY this format. I think not, as hockey in the US is very regional, and even differs greatly within a given region, meaning a one size fits all dictat from Colorado is not the best way to go.


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01-04-2011, 08:53 AM
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I'm a big fan of the ADM for playing. Kids need to develop puck skills. But they also need to develop skating, so hopefully that isn't being neglected in practice.

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01-04-2011, 09:20 AM
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Jarick,

Our mite teams combine the two teams out on the ice and do full ice drills for the first 20-30 mins. These drills are all skating and no pucks, working on strides, edges and more. Then we split the ice and I have 3 drill stations set up or start having cross ice games.

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01-04-2011, 09:24 AM
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Pee wee major team I assistant coach for has been using cross ice games since they were mites. Majority of practices and extra ice sessions include half ice games and other small area games. For all ages, it will be the best thing a hockey player can do.

Only parents I have ever heard complain about these small area games were parents who never played hockey and considered "full ice" games as "real" hockey. These are the same parents who actually felt that 7 year olds needed more time being shown how to line up for a face off rather than working on skating and puckhandling.

ADM is the right path.

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01-04-2011, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grave77digger View Post
Does anyone have any kids currently playing full ice games as a mite player? Seems all the parents on my kids Mite team are going crazy because the kids will be forced into playing cross ice games after already playing a season of full ice. I dont have much of a problem with it as they do, but the seem to to be the psycho OMG ALPHA PARENTs who think they know best. My kid (6yo) will be upset about it though I know that. Any input from on ice coaches? Would be silly for them to take a step backwards.
It is tough to deal with for sure. It is a shame but their attitude will be what hurts their kids development.
I have seen many, many kids who have parents who worry about all things that do not matter. (how many A's are next to their teams name, what kind of systems will their kids squirt team use, what prospects camp their kid was supposedly invited to, etc)
Don't worry, the kids who's parents promote and encourage skating, shooting, puckhandling and promote their kids having a passion for the game by playing the game in many other ways beyond the so called "real" games with refs, parents, coaches, jerseys, 3 hours of travel, etc, will be the kids that excel.

I never understood how a parent could sit back and watch their kid playing 3v3, 4v4 or 10v10, small area game during a open hockey session at their local rink and not have a smile on their face knowing that those moments are what creates a passionate hockey player who loves the game.

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01-04-2011, 10:06 AM
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Jarick,

Our mite teams combine the two teams out on the ice and do full ice drills for the first 20-30 mins. These drills are all skating and no pucks, working on strides, edges and more. Then we split the ice and I have 3 drill stations set up or start having cross ice games.
Sounds like the perfect way to teach hockey to me! Practice your skating, balance, edges, etc. Practice your passing and puck control in small areas. Play cross-ice until the kids are big and strong enough to play full ice.

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01-04-2011, 02:07 PM
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We have 40 or so 6-8 yr olds. Run the first 15 min as full ice combined line drills, break up into six drill stations for the next 30 min, and then break into three groups for 4v4s for 30 min.

Many clubs do similar around us, which is basically ADM.

Two points that are causing USAH headaches around us are the limitation on ice touches per week and the heavy handed approach (if caught playing a full ice Mite game the entire club loses eligibility for Districts/Nationals). USAH may have some real problems by us if they keep the strict Mite rules and then implement the proposed Squirt ADM and take away PW checking and Nationals. There's a lot of chatter among Tier II clubs in that scenario of 'why even belong, make an independent travel league'.

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01-04-2011, 05:39 PM
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Two points that are causing USAH headaches around us are the limitation on ice touches per week and the heavy handed approach (if caught playing a full ice Mite game the entire club loses eligibility for Districts/Nationals). USAH may have some real problems by us if they keep the strict Mite rules and then implement the proposed Squirt ADM and take away PW checking and Nationals. There's a lot of chatter among Tier II clubs in that scenario of 'why even belong, make an independent travel league'.
leftwing,

I could see that happening. USA hockey is trying to do to much to soon in my opinion. People that are just starting out in hockey will not have a problem with these changes. People who have been in hockey for years will. When I was growing up we didn't have to register with USA hockey before we could step out on the ice. Our coach's were parents with experience playing hockey and they didn't have to get certified to coach. Now if these things are not done you can't play or coach. Also they didn't have to follow a guide line by the letter or the team gets punished. That is where I have a problem. Like I said in an earlier post, we are limited to 15 full ice games this year. If we go over our team can not play in our year end mite tournament.

I think the ADM is great for mites, but the older kids need to start learning the other areas of the game that you don't get with cross ice games.

Also about getting rid of checking at the pee wee level I can't really say how I feel. I grew up with that at that level, but kids are getting bigger, stronger and faster.

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01-04-2011, 10:08 PM
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For 6 year olds cross ice seems like a good idea to me, by about 8 or so they should probably be moving to full ice though.

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01-05-2011, 11:17 AM
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When I was growing up we didn't have to register with USA hockey before we could step out on the ice. Our coach's were parents with experience playing hockey and they didn't have to get certified to coach. Now if these things are not done you can't play or coach. Also they didn't have to follow a guide line by the letter or the team gets punished. That is where I have a problem.
Likewise. I grew up the same way. Heck, when we lost our only puck in a snowbank we would use rocks to shoot on net. Today a kid would probably get bounced from his travel team for doing that on a local pond for violating the blue puck for mites rule.

USAH is very relevant for the top 5% of players nationwide - District Festival and Select teams, Nationals, NTDP, and its relationship with USOC and IIHF.

For the other 95% of players USAH is much less relevant. The only 'benefit' really provided is a tertiary insurance policy with dubious benefits. All the other 'benefits' could easily be replicated by another organization.

If USAH keeps over reaching they may find themselves with people jumping boat from USAH or even worse another national hockey organization popping up. There is nothing that prevents an AAU or such organization from sanctioning ice hockey. I think AAU now has a big in-line program.

USAH 'governs' ice hockey in the US. That is only because they say they do. No one has granted them that authority. Again, if you're among the top 5% you better toe the line because they can have your future in their hands. If you're a typical Tier II player/parent? They can't even tell you the composition of their club's board, let alone who runs their District or USAH. And they don't care, and nor should they.

Aren't some areas of the country non-USAH now? EHF in Boston, or MN?

I could see our area moving that way for youth hockey with too many changes from USAH, the foundation is there. We have independent rinks who already don't register their players and teams nor play by USAH hockey standards and our high schools are not USAH governed.

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08-04-2011, 07:00 AM
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Likewise. I grew up the same way. Heck, when we lost our only puck in a snowbank we would use rocks to shoot on net. Today a kid would probably get bounced from his travel team for doing that on a local pond for violating the blue puck for mites rule.

USAH is very relevant for the top 5% of players nationwide - District Festival and Select teams, Nationals, NTDP, and its relationship with USOC and IIHF.

For the other 95% of players USAH is much less relevant. The only 'benefit' really provided is a tertiary insurance policy with dubious benefits. All the other 'benefits' could easily be replicated by another organization.

If USAH keeps over reaching they may find themselves with people jumping boat from USAH or even worse another national hockey organization popping up. There is nothing that prevents an AAU or such organization from sanctioning ice hockey. I think AAU now has a big in-line program.

USAH 'governs' ice hockey in the US. That is only because they say they do. No one has granted them that authority. Again, if you're among the top 5% you better toe the line because they can have your future in their hands. If you're a typical Tier II player/parent? They can't even tell you the composition of their club's board, let alone who runs their District or USAH. And they don't care, and nor should they.

Aren't some areas of the country non-USAH now? EHF in Boston, or MN?

I could see our area moving that way for youth hockey with too many changes from USAH, the foundation is there. We have independent rinks who already don't register their players and teams nor play by USAH hockey standards and our high schools are not USAH governed.
This is what seems to be happening in Michigan. AAU getting involved.

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