HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk
National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

Situation similar to Heatley's

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-08-2003, 09:11 AM
  #1
Ensane
EL GUAPO
 
Ensane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 15,404
vCash: 500
Situation similar to Heatley's

http://www.statehornet.com/vnews/dis.../3f83ff0bbcba2

This happened two years ago at my school. I came across the article today in our local school newspaper.

Two things worth noting, obviously the boy involved in this crash isn't a celebrity, and it was proven that he was intoxicated during the crash as well.

None the less, I figured it would be good to cite for the clear parallels between the two incidents.

Ensane is offline  
Old
10-08-2003, 09:23 AM
  #2
Prendan Brust
Registered User
 
Prendan Brust's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Québec
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,500
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensane
http://www.statehornet.com/vnews/dis.../3f83ff0bbcba2

This happened two years ago at my school. I came across the article today in our local school newspaper.

Two things worth noting, obviously the boy involved in this crash isn't a celebrity, and it was proven that he was intoxicated during the crash as well.

None the less, I figured it would be good to cite for the clear parallels between the two incidents.
You wrote that the boy involved in the crash was intoxicated as well, do you mean that Heatley was intoxicated when he had the crash? If so, where did you get this info?

Thanks

Prendan Brust is offline  
Old
10-08-2003, 09:30 AM
  #3
Ensane
EL GUAPO
 
Ensane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 15,404
vCash: 500
Oh no, you misunderstood me.

I was trying to take too things that were different in the two situations (the celebrity status and the fact the the boy was proved to have been intoxicated).

As far as Heatley goes, the toxicology results aren't back, and shouldn't be for at least another week, although his agent is profusely pleading that his client was sober.

I was using the article as a possible starting point on a discussion of the possible outcome of Heatley's trial -- so in effect I tried to take out the two main pieces that IMO made Heatley's case and Head's case different.

Ensane is offline  
Old
10-08-2003, 09:36 AM
  #4
Prendan Brust
Registered User
 
Prendan Brust's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Québec
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,500
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensane
Oh no, you misunderstood me.

I was trying to take too things that were different in the two situations (the celebrity status and the fact the the boy was proved to have been intoxicated).

As far as Heatley goes, the toxicology results aren't back, and shouldn't be for at least another week, although his agent is profusely pleading that his client was sober.

I was using the article as a possible starting point on a discussion of the possible outcome of Heatley's trial -- so in effect I tried to take out the two main pieces that IMO made Heatley's case and Head's case different.
Thanks for clarifying!

Prendan Brust is offline  
Old
10-08-2003, 09:42 AM
  #5
Other Dave
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: New and improved in TO
Posts: 2,025
vCash: 500
So except for the fact that the accident involves underage drinking, the accused lied about being behind the wheel, and it's in another state, it might have something to do with Heatley's case.

Thanks!

Other Dave

Other Dave is offline  
Old
10-08-2003, 09:44 AM
  #6
Ensane
EL GUAPO
 
Ensane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 15,404
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Other Dave
So except for the fact that the accident involves underage drinking, the accused lied about being behind the wheel, and it's in another state, it might have something to do with Heatley's case.

Thanks!

Other Dave
Him lying had no bearing on the decision.

Here's the similarities that I saw:
1. Driver found at fault in accident
2. Passenger killed
3. Similar charges
4. Young without priors

Take it for whatever you want ... I posted it because people on the board have been asking about the possibility of conviction. Now here's something to at least feed their appetite for debate purposes.

Ensane is offline  
Old
10-08-2003, 09:53 AM
  #7
Frenzy1
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,797
vCash: 500
I wouldn't read anything into this because of the Alcohol (underage drinking to boot).

There has been such a crack down on drinking and driving (to the point of many states setting the limit at 0.08). So much negative publicity given to those w/ alcohol in their blood, that most are facing the full penalty.

Not 8 years ago did the majority of DUI get dropped to wreackless ops. Now, you can't get any kind of plea.

Until the Tox reports come back, you really cant compare the two.

Frenzy1 is offline  
Old
10-08-2003, 09:56 AM
  #8
wazee
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,140
vCash: 500
What was the sentence?

wazee is offline  
Old
10-08-2003, 09:57 AM
  #9
Iggy-4-50
Registered User
 
Iggy-4-50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Switzerland
Posts: 5,493
vCash: 500
Heatleys lawyer was on TSN last night and said while the tests haven't been released by the Atlanta police.... drinking was not an issue,Heatley was sober.
Huge difference in the two cases.

Iggy-4-50 is offline  
Old
10-08-2003, 10:00 AM
  #10
All-Star
Registered User
 
All-Star's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Snake Mountain
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,429
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensane
Him lying had no bearing on the decision.

Here's the similarities that I saw:
1. Driver found at fault in accident
2. Passenger killed
3. Similar charges
4. Young without priors

Take it for whatever you want ... I posted it because people on the board have been asking about the possibility of conviction. Now here's something to at least feed their appetite for debate purposes.
If Heatley was drunk he'll go to jail for a long time, but if he wasn't they'll let him plead to a lesser charge where he'll get tons of probation and tons of community service. He'll probably end up doing some "Drive Safely" type commercials...

If the purpose of sending people to jail is to prevent the crime (speeding) from happening again, I'm sure Heatley has already learned that lesson.

From a crime prevention stand-point, because Heatley is a public figure, it would be much more effective to have him spreading the word of safe driving, than to have him rot in jail.

All-Star

All-Star is offline  
Old
10-08-2003, 10:23 AM
  #11
Frenzy1
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,797
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by All-Star
If the purpose of sending people to jail is to prevent the crime (speeding) from happening again, I'm sure Heatley has already learned that lesson.

From a crime prevention stand-point, because Heatley is a public figure, it would be much more effective to have him spreading the word of safe driving, than to have him rot in jail.

All-Star
Well Said.

Frenzy1 is offline  
Old
10-08-2003, 10:58 AM
  #12
#37-#93-#27*
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: New York
Posts: 3,079
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to #37-#93-#27*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensane
http://www.statehornet.com/vnews/dis.../3f83ff0bbcba2

This happened two years ago at my school. I came across the article today in our local school newspaper.

Two things worth noting, obviously the boy involved in this crash isn't a celebrity, and it was proven that he was intoxicated during the crash as well.

None the less, I figured it would be good to cite for the clear parallels between the two incidents.
I don't think this is comparable for the reasons you stated.

#37-#93-#27* is offline  
Old
10-08-2003, 11:44 AM
  #13
Mothra
Registered User
 
Mothra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 7,357
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensane
http://www.statehornet.com/vnews/dis.../3f83ff0bbcba2

This happened two years ago at my school. I came across the article today in our local school newspaper.

Two things worth noting, obviously the boy involved in this crash isn't a celebrity, and it was proven that he was intoxicated during the crash as well.

None the less, I figured it would be good to cite for the clear parallels between the two incidents.
One HUGE difference is this........In the USA (and probably everywhere) "justice" is direcly linked to how much $$$ you can throw at your lawyer. Like it or not....its true. If you disagree I am willing to bet you have never had to deal with the "justice" system......which should be re-named the "court" system. "Justice" implies that there is justice.

Yes, their are examples of the opposite (Tyson)....but for the most part....rich people can get off.....or get FAR less of a sentence becasue they simply can afford better attorneys

I am willing to bet Heatley has more dough than this kid or his parents.

Its possible they make an example of him......and if drinking was in the mix....maybe even likey. I for one will be shocked if he gets a second of jail time however.....

Mothra is offline  
Old
10-08-2003, 12:40 PM
  #14
Wetcoaster
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Out There
Posts: 54,911
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by T@T
Heatleys lawyer was on TSN last night and said while the tests haven't been released by the Atlanta police.... drinking was not an issue,Heatley was sober.
Huge difference in the two cases.
You should carefully replay the interview which can be found on the TSN video page and listen again.

Garland indicated that he was privy to the test results. Garland was very careful in what he said however he admitted that Heatley had been drinking but that the amount of alcohol in his system was not sufficient to impair his ability to drive - he did NOT claim Heatley was sober. Huge difference.

In Georgia as pointed out earlier by one of the mods, you can be found impaired with even a small amount of alcohol in your blood. It is called the "less safe driver definition" in Georgia.

Although several parts of the Georgia Code pertain to DUI cases, the main DUI statute is found in O.C.G.A. Section 40-6-391. If you are charged with DUI, you will be charged with violating subsections (a) (1,2,3,4,5, or 6) of 40-6-391.

Lawyers know subsections (a) (1-4) as "less safe" violations, and (a) (5-6) are known as "per se" or "unlawful level" violations.

Less Safe Driver Definition

If you are charged as a "less safe" driver, the prosecuting witness will have to prove that you are under the influence of alcohol, drugs, glue or a combination of same to the extent that you are less safe to drive as a result of such consumption. The officer typically makes his case by testifying as to any physical manifestation you exhibit (e.g. odor of alcohol, bloodshot glassy eyes, unsteady on your feet, slurred speech), or by any unsafe driving maneuver. (My note speeding 45 mph over the limit, swerving, skidding and hitting a brick wall may well constitute an unsafe driving maneuver)

Per Se Definition

To be charged as a "per se" violation, you either must have an unlawful blood alcohol level (see below for limits) or any amount of contraband drugs. Keep in mind that the prosecuting witness would not have to prove that you were a less safe driver. He would only have to prove that you had either an unlawful blood alcohol level or any amount of contraband drugs in your system.


In Georgia the BAC has just recently been reduced from .10 to .08.

See
http://www.duiguy.com/law.htm

Wetcoaster is offline  
Old
10-08-2003, 12:46 PM
  #15
mrhockey123
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: CPC War Room
Country: Israel
Posts: 3,238
vCash: 500
Situations simillar to Heatley's....

Craig MacT. Its been said a zillion times already, but it was a very simillar situation

mrhockey123 is offline  
Old
10-08-2003, 01:18 PM
  #16
HAWKSWINHAWKSWIN
Registered User
 
HAWKSWINHAWKSWIN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The 49th parallel
Country: Canada
Posts: 454
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by All-Star

If the purpose of sending people to jail is to prevent the crime (speeding) from happening again, I'm sure Heatley has already learned that lesson.

From a crime prevention stand-point, because Heatley is a public figure, it would be much more effective to have him spreading the word of safe driving, than to have him rot in jail.

All-Star

My thoughts exactly. Although jail time is a possibility, Heatley could be more useful in educating young people (ie - going from school to school) and discusing what happened and why it was wrong. He killed a friend. He has to carry that with him for the rest of his life. And if you asked him, I'm sure he would be of the opinion that he deserves anything he gets.(He seems to be a very upstanding, honourable young man)

HAWKSWINHAWKSWIN is offline  
Old
10-08-2003, 01:39 PM
  #17
Wetcoaster
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Out There
Posts: 54,911
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HAWKSWINHAWKSWIN
My thoughts exactly. Although jail time is a possibility, Heatley could be more useful in educating young people (ie - going from school to school) and discusing what happened and why it was wrong. He killed a friend. He has to carry that with him for the rest of his life. And if you asked him, I'm sure he would be of the opinion that he deserves anything he gets.(He seems to be a very upstanding, honourable young man)

You have a very narrow view of sentencing not shared by most courts or the general public.

The Supreme Court of Canada in a 1996 decision put retribution back on the table (if it was ever gone).

R. v. C.A.M., [1996] 1 S.C.R. 500 at 504:

Retribution is an accepted, and indeed important, principle of sentencing in our criminal law. As an objective of sentencing, it represents nothing less than the hallowed principle that criminal punishment, in addition to advancing utilitarian considerations related to deterrence and rehabilitation, should also be imposed to sanction the moral culpability of the offender. Retribution represents an important unifying principle of our penal law by offering an essential conceptual link between the attribution of criminal liability and the imposition of criminal sanctions. The legitimacy of retribution as a principle of sentencing has often been questioned as a result of its unfortunate association with "vengeance" in common parlance, but retribution bears little relation to vengeance. Retribution should also be conceptually distinguished from its legitimate sibling, denunciation. Retribution requires that a judicial sentence properly reflect the moral blameworthiness of the particular offender. The objective of denunciation mandates that a sentence should also communicate society’s condemnation of that particular offender’s conduct. Neither retribution nor denunciation, however, alone provides an exhaustive justification for the imposition of criminal sanctions. Retribution must be considered in conjunction with the other legitimate objectives of sentencing.


Here is what a judge considers (at least in Canada) in sentencing as set out by the former Chief Justice of British Columbia in his layman's guide to law.

Principles of Sentencing

A great many studies, including several Royal Commissions,3 have examined the question of sentencing. Some scholars claim to be experts on the subject. Few judges would make that claim because every case is different. Over the years, however, a number of sentencing principles have been judicially established which identify the matters usually taken into consideration in determining a proper sentence.

These principles, as will be seen, have now been restated in statutory language. They were, and are:

1. Specific deterrence: This principle explains why an offender is sentenced to a term of imprisonment, namely, to deter him or her specifically from offending again. There is much debate about whether prison deters anyone. Some say it makes offenders worse and more dangerous. However, there is no doubt that an offender is deterred from committing further crimes while incarcerated. Whether he or she is more or less likely to re-offend after release is unknown, but a significant proportion of the prison populations are repeat offenders, which suggests that deterrence operates in some cases only during the period of incarceration.

2. General deterrence: Another reason for sentencing is to deter others from offending. In this respect, it is probable that incidents of some kinds of offences such as drinking and driving may be lessened by general deterrence. It is also possible to expect that some classes of persons who know about a particular sentence may be deterred from offending. However, many doubt the real effectiveness of prison as a general deterrent because most offenders do not expect to be caught. Some argue that the maximum benefit from a term of imprisonment is the fact that the offender went to gaol for at least some time, but they doubt the effectiveness of a long sentence. In this, as in so many other matters about sentencing, there are many opinions but no certainties.

3. Denunciation: Some argue that it is necessary to punish offenders in order to express society’s emphatic disapproval of criminal conduct, particularly serious crime. No one knows if long or short-term prison sentences are an effective remedial response to crime, but many sentences are based upon this principle. In some cases, judges may think a prison sentence will not do any good, but the crime is one where maintenance of respect for the administration of justice nevertheless requires a custodial sanction. Judges do not usually feel very good about such sentences, but they consider themselves obliged to impose a prison sentence in some cases anyway.

4. Proportionality: A sentence should reflect the moral culpability of the offender or, as it is sometimes stated, the punishment should fit the crime. The law has always recognized the additional seriousness of committing a crime against a trusting employer, a vulnerable client or patient, an elderly person or child, or against someone who is under the care or protection of the offender. This is always treated as an aggravating factor in deciding upon a sentence.

5. Rehabilitation of the offender: The possibility of rehabilitating the offender is a worthwhile objective and is always taken into account in deciding upon a sentence. There are some cases where rehabilitation is more likely to be achieved by a term in prison where there are some facilities for education and courses in anger management and sexual offender programs. In other cases, it is thought that prison will make the offender worse, and his or her chances for rehabilitation are better by not being sent to prison. In such cases, the judge is caught between possibly inconsistent principles and has to give more weight to one or the other.

These principles were developed through many years of judicial experience. It can easily be seen that in some cases the last one may be inconsistent or partially inconsistent with the others, but that is not surprising in such a delicate balancing act as sentencing always is.

Previously, there was another principle, namely, that justice should be tempered with mercy. Judges still try to show mercy where it is deserved, but it seems to have dropped out of the judicial lexicon. "Mercy" angers many critics of sentencing practices, because there is now increased attention paid to the impact of the criminal act upon victims. Many victims are, understandably, unforgiving and "mercy" to the offender may seem to them to increase the insult they have suffered.

There is a further sentencing principle, namely, retribution. Until recently, it was thought that there was no place in sentencing for retribution because of its association with revenge, which is too subjective to be a useful concept in determining the appropriate sentence in a particular case. In one of its recent few encounters with sentencing,4 however, the Supreme Court of Canada saw fit to re-introduce retribution into the sentencing process.


See
http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca/LegalCom.../Chapter23.htm

I would be most surprised if the state of Georgia does not have similar principles.

Wetcoaster is offline  
Old
10-08-2003, 01:53 PM
  #18
paul99
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Montreal, PQ
Posts: 348
vCash: 500
Ensane, sure there are differences. There are never two similar cases. But the info you refer two help us to make our own idea.

paul99 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:49 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.