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Dan Ellis/Mike Smith...any interest?

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01-02-2011, 02:35 PM
  #26
Jester
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I never wanted Ellis and felt he was completely overrated this summer, but I would have and still would take him over Leighton.
Yeah, this is the part that's being overlooked... all these folks that dislike the criticisms of what Holmgren did seem to think the critics thought there was some great solution in net last summer. There wasn't (unless you cut a deal for someone like Vokoun, or Halak... which we weren't doing). However, we could have gotten a bit better than Leighton and hoped that Bob would develop through this year...

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01-02-2011, 02:52 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
We have zero cap room, and are living in LTIR.

Because we bank zero cap space as the year goes along, you basically just add Vokouns entire cap hit when you trade for him... pro-rating the deal doesn't work for you when you have no cap space.
Basically this for the non-capologists out there. For any given day of the season, the Flyers salaries can not exceed the salary cap. EVERY SINGLE DAY.

So basically, trading for Vokoun means we need to basically send $6mill in salary in a situation where the amount of players exchanged is equal. Hartnell and Walker doesnt cut it (but it is somewhat close). Trading carcillo doesnt "save" 900k since his roster spot will have to be replaced also, and most players, including rookies, get paid between 550k-900k, so in many ways, trading a guy like Carcillo doesnt save us anything, we need to move guys with salaries over 1 mill and replace them with guys making 800k to actually save money.

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01-02-2011, 02:59 PM
  #28
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How bout Robert Esche?

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01-02-2011, 03:21 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Basically this for the non-capologists out there. For any given day of the season, the Flyers salaries can not exceed the salary cap. EVERY SINGLE DAY.

So basically, trading for Vokoun means we need to basically send $6mill in salary in a situation where the amount of players exchanged is equal. Hartnell and Walker doesnt cut it (but it is somewhat close). Trading carcillo doesnt "save" 900k since his roster spot will have to be replaced also, and most players, including rookies, get paid between 550k-900k, so in many ways, trading a guy like Carcillo doesnt save us anything, we need to move guys with salaries over 1 mill and replace them with guys making 800k to actually save money.
I do not think so. We are adding remaining cap room of the player we traded for. not 6M or 5.7M in this case

I mean if this was beginning of the season sure but I was talking about dead line deal.

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01-02-2011, 03:29 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Yeah, this is the part that's being overlooked... all these folks that dislike the criticisms of what Holmgren did seem to think the critics thought there was some great solution in net last summer. There wasn't (unless you cut a deal for someone like Vokoun, or Halak... which we weren't doing). However, we could have gotten a bit better than Leighton and hoped that Bob would develop through this year...
But what isn't being overlooked is that 90% of the people that post on here were naming Dan Ellis as someone they would like on this team. Whether or not they thought he was the savior in net is irrelevant. Every time there was mention of a free agent goalie this offseason it was the same names, Mason, Turco, Ellis, or Nabby.

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01-02-2011, 03:42 PM
  #31
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Cechmanek available??

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01-02-2011, 03:44 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
But what isn't being overlooked is that 90% of the people that post on here were naming Dan Ellis as someone they would like on this team. Whether or not they thought he was the savior in net is irrelevant. Every time there was mention of a free agent goalie this offseason it was the same names, Mason, Turco, Ellis, or Nabby.
Who is denying that?

I'd still prefer all of 'em to Leighton.

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01-02-2011, 03:48 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
I do not think so. We are adding remaining cap room of the player we traded for. not 6M or 5.7M in this case

I mean if this was beginning of the season sure but I was talking about dead line deal.
That's how it works. Every single contract has a daily value attached to it that you add to the season long cap hit... the reason pro-rating works is because you "bank" extra cap space to use as your daily hit for the players you have on your roster.

Essentially, if you're not using all your cap space early on in the year you build up reserve cap space so that you can spend more than the average per-day that will get you to the cap ceiling.

Every single day the Flyers are spending to the average per-day that will hit the cap ceiling (actually, they're spending more... but lets put that on the side). So, they don't have any extra cap space to take advantage of pro-rating a deal at the end of the year. They don't have 1M in cap space built onto the roster, which is the equivalent of 2M in cap space halfway through the season.

They have 0... so whatever Vokoun makes, that what you need to send back.

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01-02-2011, 04:15 PM
  #34
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Hasek is still available I think

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Old
01-02-2011, 04:28 PM
  #35
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Hell no. Not unless Leighton and maybe Boucher are going the other way or being waived.

Our goaltending is already a jumbled mess right now. Adding a fourth goalie that isn't a sure thing is just going to jumble it up even more. If the goaltending situation wasn't what it is then I wouldn't mind Ellis as a backup or Smith as a potential reclamation project (assuming that both would come for cheap), but as is, hell no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
But what isn't being overlooked is that 90% of the people that post on here were naming Dan Ellis as someone they would like on this team. Whether or not they thought he was the savior in net is irrelevant. Every time there was mention of a free agent goalie this offseason it was the same names, Mason, Turco, Ellis, or Nabby.
Well, yeah, because that was most of the free agent goalies (the only notable one you missed was Biron I think).

And most of us would still take any or most of those goalies over Leighton.

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01-02-2011, 05:55 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
That's how it works. Every single contract has a daily value attached to it that you add to the season long cap hit... the reason pro-rating works is because you "bank" extra cap space to use as your daily hit for the players you have on your roster.

Essentially, if you're not using all your cap space early on in the year you build up reserve cap space so that you can spend more than the average per-day that will get you to the cap ceiling.

Every single day the Flyers are spending to the average per-day that will hit the cap ceiling (actually, they're spending more... but lets put that on the side). So, they don't have any extra cap space to take advantage of pro-rating a deal at the end of the year. They don't have 1M in cap space built onto the roster, which is the equivalent of 2M in cap space halfway through the season.

They have 0... so whatever Vokoun makes, that what you need to send back.
Not sure how much cap space Flyers currently have maybe 300K maybe 500K maybe even zero but if we waive Leighton and lets say trade Zherdev and 1st round pick we can land Tomas V. We'll have enough space because only about 1/3 of Vokoun's salary will count NOT 5.7M

am I wrong? I thought this is how it works. If Vokoun'd dslsry is about 2M at the dead line we need to clear 2M not 5.7

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01-02-2011, 08:25 PM
  #37
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Now that the team with arguably the crappiest goaltending in the league has found an adequate replacement. I see this, not as an opportunity to get one of Smith/Ellis, but as an open opportunity to waive Leighton/Bob/Boosh with confidence that they won't be poached.

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01-02-2011, 09:06 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Not sure how much cap space Flyers currently have maybe 300K maybe 500K maybe even zero but if we waive Leighton and lets say trade Zherdev and 1st round pick we can land Tomas V. We'll have enough space because only about 1/3 of Vokoun's salary will count NOT 5.7M

am I wrong? I thought this is how it works. If Vokoun'd dslsry is about 2M at the dead line we need to clear 2M not 5.7
Yes you are wrong. Jester's example covers it pretty well.

The reason why a team can add a 2million dollar player halfway through the year when they only have technically 1 million in cap space is because they "bank" cap space the first half of the year. BUT, we cannot bank ANY cap space because we have LTIR commitments, so we are spending to the cap and not banking anything. Therefore, halfway through the year if we have 1 million in space, we can only add a 1 million dollar contract, not a 2 million dollar one which would have been possible due to proration.

Edit: So essentially the reason a team can add a contract and take on the prorated portion of it, is because they DID NOT spend the other part of that prorated contract prior to the player being acquired. So if you acquire a 6 million dollar player halfway through the year, you are only taking on 3 million in responsibility, but you can ONLY do that, if you DIDN'T spend the other 3 million during the first half of the year. (But this is calculated daily). LTIR forces us to spend to the cap (and beyond it), so we aren't not (yes, double negative) spending the money we need to to add a prorated contract.


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Old
01-02-2011, 09:48 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Yes you are wrong. Jester's example covers it pretty well.

The reason why a team can add a 2million dollar player halfway through the year when they only have technically 1 million in cap space is because they "bank" cap space the first half of the year. BUT, we cannot bank ANY cap space because we have LTIR commitments, so we are spending to the cap and not banking anything. Therefore, halfway through the year if we have 1 million in space, we can only add a 1 million dollar contract, not a 2 million dollar one which would have been possible due to proration.

Edit: So essentially the reason a team can add a contract and take on the prorated portion of it, is because they DID NOT spend the other part of that prorated contract prior to the player being acquired. So if you acquire a 6 million dollar player halfway through the year, you are only taking on 3 million in responsibility, but you can ONLY do that, if you DIDN'T spend the other 3 million during the first half of the year. (But this is calculated daily). LTIR forces us to spend to the cap (and beyond it), so we aren't not (yes, double negative) spending the money we need to to add a prorated contract.
When Pronger's 5 million is off the books for this long does that allow the Cap to build up? Why can't they put Walker, Leighton and Bob in the minors and make the Vokoun trade with that space plus whatever we are sending back?

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01-02-2011, 09:55 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Not sure if we can't. Depends on who we move. If Leighton is moved it's 1.5M already. If Carcillo is gone it's what almost 2.5M? 2.5 is about what Tomas will be worth around the dead line. If not less.

Right? Wrong?

What if we move Zherdev? as well as Leighton to make room.

Do not tell me we can not afford this guy. We also have 1st round pick too.

How much cap room do we have right now?
You would have to pro rate Leighton and Carcillo also....

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01-02-2011, 10:06 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by JABEE View Post
When Pronger's 5 million is off the books for this long does that allow the Cap to build up? Why can't they put Walker, Leighton and Bob in the minors and make the Vokoun trade with that space plus whatever we are sending back?
First off, Pronger is not on LTIR, IIRC, and secondly if he was they could spend over the Cap daily by his daily Cap hit for his Cap exception... any unused daily exception amount cannot be carried past that day... in other words no banking of allotted Cap exception amounts.

So the Flyers are not aided by placing Pronger on LTIR beyond the ability to replace his salary on a daily basis... as I understand it.

Hope I stated that clearly... it is a complicated procedure unless you grasp the basics of it.

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01-02-2011, 10:11 PM
  #42
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could we do something like throwing 8mil prorated at nabby for the remainder of this year and 2 mil next year which would make the cap hit too high for teams like washington and salary too high for teams like islanders along with waiving or trading for picks shelley, leighton, boosh, walker? i understand it's a huge stretch, but would that even be feasible? we'd then either have to trade carle or nabby in the off season (i could see tampa being interested in either)

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01-02-2011, 10:12 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
Now that the team with arguably the crappiest goaltending in the league has found an adequate replacement. I see this, not as an opportunity to get one of Smith/Ellis, but as an open opportunity to waive Leighton/Bob/Boosh with confidence that they won't be poached.
... On the way down you must mean. Coming up at half the salary and Cap hit can make them a bargain for some teams and worth claiming on recall.

I see your point if Homer wants to stash a goalie in the A until the postseason when there are no waiver worries... but I'm not so sure there are any concerns about losing a goalie as much as there about losing the Cap space -- and Leighton is for next season also.

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01-02-2011, 10:18 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by PhillyCurt12 View Post
could we do something like throwing 8mil prorated at nabby for the remainder of this year and 2 mil next year which would make the cap hit too high for teams like washington and salary too high for teams like islanders along with waiving or trading for picks shelley, leighton, boosh, walker? i understand it's a huge stretch, but would that even be feasible? we'd then either have to trade carle or nabby in the off season (i could see tampa being interested in either)
Shelley would have to be replaced and Walker I don't believe can be waived while on IR... and then Tagging would also have to be in the mix I believe.

Also I don't believe you can sign him to multiple contracts like in the old days... so the salary could be 8 and 2 but the Cap would have to be a prorated 5 and a full 5.

You cannot fool the CBA salary Cap by mere creativity.

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01-02-2011, 10:29 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
Shelley would have to be replaced and Walker I don't believe can be waived while on IR... and then Tagging would also have to be in the mix I believe.

Also I don't believe you can sign him to multiple contracts like in the old days... so the salary could be 8 and 2 but the Cap would have to be a prorated 5 and a full 5.

You cannot fool the CBA salary Cap by mere creativity.
gotchya, i didn't realize that the cap hit would be 5 mil. wouldn't zherdev theoretically replace shelley though? but it's a moot point as it was a ridiculous idea sprung from boredom.

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01-02-2011, 10:31 PM
  #46
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I think I'd take Leighton over Smith.

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01-02-2011, 10:39 PM
  #47
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I know our goalies have struggled the last couple of weeks but good God no. I will take my chances with what we have over those 2, and I dont like Leighton.

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01-02-2011, 10:42 PM
  #48
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I'd take Ellis over Leighton to be honest (Lightning fan). Ellis has solid career numbers in the NHL and while he did underperform this season, he was playing behind the far and away most overrated defense in hockey. If he went to Philly I think he'd do quite well with the D they have.

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01-02-2011, 10:44 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by PhillyCurt12 View Post
gotchya, i didn't realize that the cap hit would be 5 mil. wouldn't zherdev theoretically replace shelley though? but it's a moot point as it was a ridiculous idea sprung from boredom.
Zherdev wouldn't replace replace Shelley because they are both on the roster... you would be eliminating the scratched forward and need one on the road at least -- and with the Phantoms in ADK, a quick call up at home is not so quick either -- With Walker gone also, any D-man on IR would cause them to have no extras... and Pronger is on IR now.

Shipping out players is not as simple as it seems, IMO.

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01-02-2011, 11:07 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by JABEE View Post
When Pronger's 5 million is off the books for this long does that allow the Cap to build up? Why can't they put Walker, Leighton and Bob in the minors and make the Vokoun trade with that space plus whatever we are sending back?
Nope. LTIR (which Pronger is not on IIRC) is actually the problem. We can't bank any cap space because LTIR is letting us go OVER the limit. If we are OVER the limit, we aren't seeing any savings, therefore there isn't anything to bank.

The simplest way to look at it is...if you are using LTIR, you aren't banking cap space, therefore you can't really acquire a prorated contract.

We could put Walker, Leighton and Bob in the minors. But first Walker needs to get healthy. After that we'd need to waive him and Leighton, and after they clear, send them down. Bob we could send down freely.

If all of those things happened we would see a 5 million savings on the cap. Once we are UNDER the cap (truly under it, meaning not utilizing LTIR), we would begin seeing daily cap savings, which would eventually enable us to acquire a prorated contract.

Edit: I think the easiest way to look at it is, let's say the cap is $100 and the season is 50 days long. We can ONLY spend $100 for the ENTIRE year. That equates to 2 dollars a day. Well, if you are only spending 1 dollar a day for a lot of the year, you are "saving" 1 dollar a day, which you can then spend later (aka proration). So later in the season, if you acquire a prorated contract, you might technically be seeing a $3 a day cap hit, but that's ok becaue earlier in the year, you were only at $1 a day. LTIR effs it all up because you are granted an exception to spend more than the $100 and $2 a day. So there is no banked savings.


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