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Bryan Murray on last legs in Ottawa

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Old
01-03-2011, 06:46 PM
  #26
TheBandWagon
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Originally Posted by MikeyMagic View Post
As Bob McKenzie said today on NHL Live.... If their gonna get rid of Murray they need to do it now, before the season ends. Get someone in and "give them the keys" so they can start unloading the dead wood at the trade deadline. If Murray isn't getting an extension (highly unlikely) then why have him potentially screw this up even more. On Clouston I don't think I can handle watching the rest of the season with him coaching. The man doesn't know what a forecheck is. I am so frustrated with the style he has the team playing and is certainly a big part of our offensive problems, along with underachieving stars.
I mostly agree, but I remember when Clouston first came in here, he emphasized a high speed high pressure game, and now he's focused on D first, I don't get why we switched to this when we got more PMD and less DD

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01-03-2011, 06:54 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by TheBandWagon View Post
I mostly agree, but I remember when Clouston first came in here, he emphasized a high speed high pressure game, and now he's focused on D first, I don't get why we switched to this when we got more PMD and less DD

Presure from BM? I would love to know why he changed his approach. If its because we have less defensive players then hes going back on his word that he'll let the team play to there strengths.

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01-03-2011, 07:00 PM
  #28
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Why is there a stigma about Pierre Maguire.

Sure he's annoying, but he's a great scout and has ton of exposure of prospects.
We don't know what his abilities are when it comes to being a GM. Yet Yzerman gets a ton of praise for his work with Team Canada, even though he had the greatest talent to choose from. My point is we don't know what he has to offer so why criticize him?

If we hire Pierre Maguire chances are we are going through a rebuild or atleast a mini rebuild, so why not rebuild with someone who has a ton of experience with prospects.
Umm, because Pierre has been out of the league for more than 15 years?

And he was a bad Asst GM and worse coach?

And when was he ever a great scout?


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Old
01-03-2011, 07:07 PM
  #29
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Umm, because Pierre has been out of the league for more than 15 years?

And he was a bad Adar GM and worse coach?
He barely got his feet wet...he coached Hartford for like half a season. He was the assistant GM in Hartford when they drafted Pronger...and in 8 picks they found 4 guys that played over 300 NHL games. He was a pro scout and assistant coach with Pittsburgh when they won two cups. He coached in Ottawa when we were awful.

He's spent the last 10 years making a name for himself and studying the league. It's an interesting thought...

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01-03-2011, 07:11 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by kawknballs View Post
I agree with all of you that have expressed your concern with Murray staying on as GM, however, his strongest GM skill is in scouting and drafting and I think that is extremely valuable in the NHL at its current state.
Murray's strength is amateur scouting(or atleast he hires people who are great at amateur scouting) but his pro scouting really needs work. A good GM should be excellent at both.

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01-03-2011, 07:20 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by ARS View Post
Murray's strength is amateur scouting(or atleast he hires people who are great at amateur scouting) but his pro scouting really needs work. A good GM should be excellent at both.
Pro scouting is facilitated by a run of strong amateur scouting. The key to everything in this league has pretty much become amateur scouting...over time.

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01-03-2011, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
He barely got his feet wet...he coached Hartford for like half a season. He was the assistant GM in Hartford when they drafted Pronger...and in 8 picks they found 4 guys that played over 300 NHL games. He was a pro scout and assistant coach with Pittsburgh when they won two cups. He coached in Ottawa when we were awful.
You forgot to mention he married Scotty Bowman's daughter.

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He's spent the last 10 years making a name for himself and studying the league. It's an interesting thought...
Sounds like Barry Melrose. Let's hire him to replace Clouston.

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Old
01-03-2011, 07:33 PM
  #33
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You forgot to mention he married Scotty Bowman's daughter.

Sounds like Barry Melrose. Let's hire him to replace Clouston.
Look on the bright side...we would have tons of hilarious avatar themes to work with?

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01-03-2011, 07:33 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
Pro scouting is facilitated by a run of strong amateur scouting. The key to everything in this league has pretty much become amateur scouting...over time.
The current roster and Murray's signings and trades, in general, seem to suggest the contrary.

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01-03-2011, 07:38 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by ARS View Post
The current roster and Murray's signings and trades, in general, seem to suggest the contrary.
Poor amateur scouting from 2002-2007 made pro scouting more difficult from 2008 on.

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01-03-2011, 07:43 PM
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Pro and amateur scouting are not tied together at all...you're looking for different things as a pro scout. A friend is a pro scout in the league and he always says his job is much easier - he's not trying to project an 17/18 year olds talent into the NHL...he's making determinations on known commodities.

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01-03-2011, 07:49 PM
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Maybe that's why Maguire's been so high on Cowen during the WJC, even though Cowen hasn't been playing lights out.

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Old
01-03-2011, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeSakic View Post
Pro and amateur scouting are not tied together at all...you're looking for different things as a pro scout. A friend is a pro scout in the league and he always says his job is much easier - he's not trying to project an 17/18 year olds talent into the NHL...he's making determinations on known commodities.
Certainly. Amateur scouting is often a crap shoot which is why even the best talent evaluators often fail...it's so hard to tell which kids are going to fill out right or pull ass to make the NHL.

What I mean is...teams get much better flexibility in trades and signings when they have a team that is drafting well. You have more expendable assets to bring in players you actually like...and you have more free agents that see your team as attractive over the long haul due to strong young assets.

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01-03-2011, 07:50 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
Poor amateur scouting from 2002-2007 made pro scouting more difficult from 2008 on.
That doesn't make any sense at all.

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Originally Posted by JoeSakic View Post
Pro and amateur scouting are not tied together at all...you're looking for different things as a pro scout. A friend is a pro scout in the league and he always says his job is much easier - he's not trying to project an 17/18 year olds talent into the NHL...he's making determinations on known commodities.
Exactly, A pro scout doesn't just look for talent but they also look to see how well a player well mesh in with the current group of players and the system, what their general fitness and health is like etc.

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01-03-2011, 07:51 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Seafood Soup View Post
Maybe that's why Maguire's been so high on Cowen during the WJC, even though Cowen hasn't been playing lights out.
I'd say he's high on Cowen because he's 6'5 235 and is showing great mobility for being that size that young.

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01-03-2011, 07:53 PM
  #41
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I'm lost... what are we debating here?

Bryan Murray = Sucks
Cory Clouston = Sucks

That's the bottom line cuz stone cold said so.

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01-03-2011, 07:54 PM
  #42
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The only thing I do not like about this is it makes it look like a drastic trade by Murray is the only thing that could possibly save his job. Just afraid Murray will make a trade for a vet when what he really needs to do is unload some bodies

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01-03-2011, 07:55 PM
  #43
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That doesn't make any sense at all.
You don't think our pro scouting would look better if we had more young assets in the system to bring in the players we want over time.

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01-03-2011, 08:03 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
You don't think our pro scouting would look better if we had more young assets in the system to bring in the players we want over time.
No?

What you're essentially arguing is that if Muckler's drafting was better Murray wouldn't have made the terrible signings and trades that he did, which doesn't make any sense.

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01-03-2011, 08:10 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by ARS View Post
No?

What you're essentially arguing is that if Muckler's drafting was better Murray wouldn't have made the terrible signings and trades that he did, which doesn't make any sense.
If Muckler left us with more players we may not have even had to go after guys in free agency and trade...or we may have had more expendable prospects which would create more flexibility in the trade market.

He's on the hook for the guys he signed, this isn't a defend Murray thing but we are an example of how this can work. If you draft well you give your team more flexibility in the trade market...or it means you don't have to resort to those inferior methods of building a contender...most teams that build contenders do so in the draft for the most part anyways.

I mean if Brian Lee was Marc Staal we may have never had to bring in Kuba or Campoli or Picard or whoever in the first place, this is just an example but I don't see how it doesn't apply. Or maybe Marc Staal is packaged with Nick Foligno and a 1st a couple years ago for a player that is actually proven and very good when we needed to fill a hole (with Campoli) because Brian Lee wasn't an NHLer 2-3 years removed from his 9th overall selection. Again, just an example.

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01-03-2011, 08:16 PM
  #46
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MoO I think you and ARS are on different pages. Essentially I think the drafting is irrelevant when discussing the quality of your pro scouts. Their job is not to propose trades, their job is not to focus on the pros (both minors and NHL) and determine those they feel would excel in the scouts organization. They also focus on building scouting reports on teams/players to map out tendencies, etc. Their jobs are completely independent of the prospect pool a team may have (or not have at it's disposal). They'll meet with the scouting staff regularly for updates and are briefed/questioned when a deal is being pondered or if strategy is being outlined.

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01-03-2011, 08:19 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Sens mile View Post
The only thing I do not like about this is it makes it look like a drastic trade by Murray is the only thing that could possibly save his job. Just afraid Murray will make a trade for a vet when what he really needs to do is unload some bodies
Murray is only a GM in title at this point it would seem. A lame duck. I wouldn't be surprised if empty cardboard boxes have been delivered to his office at SBP. I doubt he has the authority to do any trades at the moment.

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01-03-2011, 08:19 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
If Muckler left us with more players we may not have even had to go after guys in free agency and trade...or we may have had more expendable prospects which would create more flexibility in the trade market.

He's on the hook for the guys he signed, this isn't a defend Murray thing but we are an example of how this can work. If you draft well you give your team more flexibility in the trade market...or it means you don't have to resort to those inferior methods of building a contender...most teams that build contenders do so in the draft for the most part anyways.

I mean if Brian Lee was Marc Staal we may have never had to bring in Kuba or Campoli or Picard or whoever in the first place, this is just an example but I don't see how it doesn't apply. Or maybe Marc Staal is packaged with Nick Foligno and a 1st a couple years ago for a player that is actually proven and very good when we needed to fill a hole (with Campoli) because Brian Lee wasn't an NHLer 2-3 years removed from his 9th overall selection. Again, just an example.
So in other words, for you good pro scouting is when no pro scouting is required? I don't understand how you can't see how illogical your argument is. Signing Kovalev and Gonchar, and trading for Leclaire, Commodore etc. and then them being not as good as expected has nothing to do with the quality of Muckler's drafting.

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01-03-2011, 08:23 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by ARS View Post
So in other words, for you good pro scouting is when no pro scouting is required? I don't understand how you can't see how illogical your argument is. Signing Kovalev and Gonchar, and trading for Leclaire, Commodore etc. has nothing to do with the quality of Muckler's drafting.
Relying on pro scouting can be a crap shoot but drafting good young players makes it easier to bring in players that are actually good, which in turn makes pro scouting look good. I'm really just talking about perception of pro scouting...because from afar...none of us really know who is actually to blame for some of the decisions that are made. For instance, it's widely speculated and somewhat widely accepted that Melnyk engineered the Kovalev deal.

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01-03-2011, 08:26 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by JoeSakic View Post
MoO I think you and ARS are on different pages. Essentially I think the drafting is irrelevant when discussing the quality of your pro scouts. Their job is not to propose trades, their job is not to focus on the pros (both minors and NHL) and determine those they feel would excel in the scouts organization. They also focus on building scouting reports on teams/players to map out tendencies, etc. Their jobs are completely independent of the prospect pool a team may have (or not have at it's disposal). They'll meet with the scouting staff regularly for updates and are briefed/questioned when a deal is being pondered or if strategy is being outlined.
We are in different pages, I'm glad that you see that. Their jobs are different and completely separate except for the fact that having more quality young assets in the system makes the life on pro scouts easier and the perception on them likely better because instead of trading for Pascal Leclaire you may have traded for someone better...(just an example).

I mean I'm really not convinced our pro scouts thought Gonchar was the best defensemen available in UFA...but he was the one we got...for whatever reason.

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