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Bryan Murray on last legs in Ottawa

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Old
01-03-2011, 09:36 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by guyzeur View Post
Fact: Murray did not ask for a safety check before trading for Leclaire
that is why he got a 2nd rounder

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01-03-2011, 09:37 PM
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OK how about if you look at MoO's position like this. If Muckler drafts Kopitar instead of Lee, does Murray even need to sign Kovalev? If Muckler drafts any capable goalie instead of a half dozen russian no shows, does Murray even contemplate trading for Leclaire? Who knows, but that is the point.

We have no way of knowing what the amateur or pro scouts are coming up with and how that information is being used by the GM's. But one thing is for certain, if Kopitar was drafted by Muckler, the subsequent decisions made that Murray would have been a lot different than those he actually made. I definitely see where decisions made based on amateur scouting reports very much affect decisions made based on pro scouting reports. edit add: Pro scouting can look a lot better in one scenario vs the other. Does not necessarily mean they would do a different job, the results may only look better because of the actual moves that can be made in one scenario vs the other. I think that is the point being made by MoO.


Last edited by Kickabrat: 01-03-2011 at 09:43 PM. Reason: hit the submit button instead of preview
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01-03-2011, 09:38 PM
  #78
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like Matt Carkner
Yes. Now, one could easily, in my opinion, argue that Matt Carkner is no better an NHLer than David Hale or Brian Lee so I don't know that it's the impact you'd hope your pro scouts would have...but...

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01-03-2011, 09:40 PM
  #79
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I'm failing to understand the disconnect here. The prospect pool of an organization has NOTHING to do with the pro scouting department. If the position is that a deeper prospect pool allows for more activity by the GM (i.e. trades based on recommendations of the pro scouts) it still does not correlate to the quality level of the pro scouts. It would mean chances are you have busier pro scouts (in terms of trades for NHL players)...but that's about it. A quality pro scouting organization will identify players like Rich Peverly on the waiver wire and identify that he, in the right role, can be a very solid NHL player. Good pro scouts would be able to identify players that are not producing in their current environment and know if they were brought into the new organization and played in the proper role they would thrive.
I'm talking about the perception fans who actually don't know anything about the internal affairs of a hockey team. That's all.

Our pro scouts brought in a career AHLer we turned into a serviceable bottom pairing defensemen that wins fights. Our pro scouts identified Cullen and Sutton at the deadline last year and they both made impacts. Campoli was a fine pick up for a 25-30 pick...I doubt they anticipated getting a star out of him...but he's been fine. Kuba was fine until he spent most of the last two years injured. Michalek was a very good player in San Jose but he's been hurt again on the knee and is being put on the wing he is less comfortable here....everyone was handcuffed in the Heatley deal. Hell, that Edmonton deal would have looked great at this point.

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01-03-2011, 09:45 PM
  #80
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Yes. Now, one could easily, in my opinion, argue that Matt Carkner is no better an NHLer than David Hale or Brian Lee so I don't know that it's the impact you'd hope your pro scouts would have...but...
They have about as much overall impact as trades and free agent signings because those are the areas they are involved in. For the most part good teams are built first and foremost through the draft... their are exceptions but it's usually unlikely you can build anything with the drafting we spent 2002-2007 with.

A guy like Peverley is a big win for pro scouting, I assume...far from every team has something like that to boast though.

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01-03-2011, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
I'm talking about the perception fans who actually don't know anything about the internal affairs of a hockey team. That's all.
Fair enough.

Our pro scouts brought in a career AHLer we turned into a serviceable bottom pairing defensemen that wins fights.
I question whether it's wise to have one of your only 6 dmen tasked with the responsibility to drop the mittens when required. Again fair.

Our pro scouts identified Cullen and Sutton at the deadline last year and they both made impacts.
Fair again. Some will question whether Ottawa had the horses to really do any damage in the playoffs with the team assembled but at the end of the day that's hindsight.

Campoli was a fine pick up for a 25-30 pick...I doubt they anticipated getting a star out of him...but he's been fine.
Sure he's been "fine" but is that really what this team needed when they went out and got him? A questionable PMD that would be a 3rd pairing guy for a 1st round pick? If that's what the pro scouts thought they were getting and BM was fine with paying the price of a 1st rounder for him than alright.

Kuba was fine until he spent most of the last two years injured.
Agreed.

Michalek was a very good player in San Jose but he's been hurt again on the knee and is being put on the wing he is less comfortable here....everyone was handcuffed in the Heatley deal. Hell, that Edmonton deal would have looked great at this point.
Don't get me started on the Heatley deal. Where was the pro scouting on that deal? Sure Michalek has dropped off but shouldn't the pro scouts have warned that Cheechoo was nowhere near an NHL player? Shouldn't they have made taking him back a deal breaker?
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01-03-2011, 09:58 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
They have about as much overall impact as trades and free agent signings because those are the areas they are involved in. For the most part good teams are built first and foremost through the draft... their are exceptions but it's usually unlikely you can build anything with the drafting we spent 2002-2007 with.

A guy like Peverley is a big win for pro scouting, I assume...far from every team has something like that to boast though.
Regardless of how poor those drafts were, it's not like the team doesn't have assets to move if the pro scouts were to identify players that they feel very strongly about. You're right it's not an easy task, but with a strong pro scouting department it's doable.

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01-03-2011, 10:00 PM
  #83
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Responses in bold.
I personally thought with the way our team was playing going into last year...and putting Cullen and Sutton on top of that...we went into the playoffs as a legitimate dark horse that was very very deep. Injuries hurt that...but if the decision was wrong that's on Murray...if pro scouts were used to determine Cullen and Sutton would work..the pro scouts win...because Cullen was very good and Sutton made noise and allowed Karlsson to run wild as a 19 year old in his first taste of the playoffs.

At the time Campoli was picked up...if I'm not mistaken....we had Kuba, Picard and then Brian Lee as our next best PMD...who was a PMD prospect that had to change to a more defensive game. We just lost Redden. I think it was reasonable to think we needed to add a PMD...but with Karlsson already in the waiting it probably wasn't worth selling off a bigger piece of the future to bring back a better return.

25-30th overall provided Campoli and I think that deal is perceived to be much worse then it actually was. Campoli's a serviceable player to this day....anything less and he isn't worth any 1st rounder...but he's been a decent player for us.

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01-03-2011, 10:03 PM
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Regardless of how poor those drafts were, it's not like the team doesn't have assets to move if the pro scouts were to identify players that they feel very strongly about. You're right it's not an easy task, but with a strong pro scouting department it's doable.
There's just so many variables that come in to play that make it difficult to judge from the outside. We certainly aren't a team that found a diamond in the rough and acquired him...but we don't know that it means they didn't identify a Rich Peverley type pick up...we just know that we didn't acquire it for whatever reason..although maybe they haven't identified anything. In the end the reality is most teams don't have a Rich Peverley to boast....which leads me to believe some teams that didn't acquire Peverley may have identified him.

When there are 30 teams in the league....everything about it is difficult.

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01-03-2011, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
I personally thought with the way our team was playing going into last year...and putting Cullen and Sutton on top of that...we went into the playoffs as a legitimate dark horse that was very very deep. Injuries hurt that...but if the decision was wrong that's on Murray...if pro scouts were used to determine Cullen and Sutton would work..the pro scouts win...because Cullen was very good and Sutton made noise and allowed Karlsson to run wild as a 19 year old in his first taste of the playoffs.

At the time Campoli was picked up...if I'm not mistaken....we had Kuba, Picard and then Brian Lee as our next best PMD...who was a PMD prospect that had to change to a more defensive game. We just lost Redden. I think it was reasonable to think we needed to add a PMD...but with Karlsson already in the waiting it probably wasn't worth selling off a bigger piece of the future to bring back a better return.

25-30th overall provided Campoli and I think that deal is perceived to be much worse then it actually was. Campoli's a serviceable player to this day....anything less and he isn't worth any 1st rounder...but he's been a decent player for us.
I would have appreciated the moves more had BM signed Cullen to a deal (I'm not a fan of using up a valuable asset for a few months of a player). You're right the pro scouts identified two players that fit right in.

In terms of the Campoli thing, BM made the decision he was going to bring in a PMD and he brought one in. My take is before he was brought in and the team took an inventory of what they had in terms of PMDs, if the BEST they could walk away from moving a first rounder (which happens rarely now a days) is a guy who was a 3rd pairing guy, then the pro scouts failed to identify a player and BM panicked and made the move. Is he a horrible dman? No. But is that the result you want your pro scouts to deliver when the team is moving a first rounder (regardless of where it is)?

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01-03-2011, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeSakic View Post

In terms of the Campoli thing, BM made the decision he was going to bring in a PMD and he brought one in. My take is before he was brought in and the team took an inventory of what they had in terms of PMDs, if the BEST they could walk away from moving a first rounder (which happens rarely now a days) is a guy who was a 3rd pairing guy, then the pro scouts failed to identify a player and BM panicked and made the move. Is he a horrible dman? No. But is that the result you want your pro scouts to deliver when the team is moving a first rounder (regardless of where it is)?
But that's what I mean when I say too many variables can come into play...it's not like the pro scouts get free pickings from around the league, we can't trade for players that are unavailable unless maybe we have something better than a late 1st expendable to get that better player....that is less available.

I don't think it was a failing at all...it just wasn't a big win...the Campoli trade was a "meh" deal too me...no win/no loss.

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01-03-2011, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
There's just so many variables that come in to play that make it difficult to judge from the outside. We certainly aren't a team that found a diamond in the rough and acquired him...but we don't know that it means they didn't identify a Rich Peverley type pick up...we just know that we didn't acquire it for whatever reason..although maybe they haven't identified anything. In the end the reality is most teams don't have a Rich Peverley to boast....which leads me to believe some teams that didn't acquire Peverley may have identified him.

When there are 30 teams in the league....everything about it is difficult.
The problem with this team, with BM and with Muckler is that I can't remember the last trade that this team made off like bandits...over the life of the deal. Everything seems to be a latteral move. Now if the GM is able to move Kuba and Campoli (whom I assume is not in the teams plans long term) for decent returns then maybe we can say the Mesz trade is one. That tells me that this team is more worried about investing money into being a cap team (and managing it horribly) rather than spending big dollars on a strong pro AND amateur scouting department. Great organizations spare no expense when it comes to their scouting staffs because they're the ones that uncover the diamonds in the rough. They're the ones that give their GMs options both in the draft but also come FA time.

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01-03-2011, 10:19 PM
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But that's what I mean when I say too many variables can come into play...it's not like the pro scouts get free pickings from around the league, we can't trade for players that are unavailable unless maybe we have something better than a late 1st expendable to get that better player....that is less available.

I don't think it was a failing at all...it just wasn't a big win...the Campoli trade was a "meh" deal too me...no win/no loss
.
Agree. So why make a move like that? Either your scouts feel it's a home run or you panic and pick up a guy that has been recently demoted to the press box on the worst team in the league.

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01-03-2011, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
There's just so many variables that come in to play that make it difficult to judge from the outside. We certainly aren't a team that found a diamond in the rough and acquired him...but we don't know that it means they didn't identify a Rich Peverley type pick up...we just know that we didn't acquire it for whatever reason..although maybe they haven't identified anything. In the end the reality is most teams don't have a Rich Peverley to boast....which leads me to believe some teams that didn't acquire Peverley may have identified him.

When there are 30 teams in the league....everything about it is difficult.
Ottawa has a number of prospects with "diamond in the rough" potential but only time will tell & Murray likely won't be around to get the credit for it. What I like the most about what the Murrays have done is that they are making our team(s) bigger & tougher with guys like Cowen, Lehner, Gryba, Wiercioch, Greening, Z. Smith, Stone, Rundblad, Blood, Sdao, Culek, Grant, DZ, Cowick, O'Brien & Lessard.

I especially like Lehner in net, it reminds me of the confidence the Ottawa & Bingo teams had with Emery in net, a very confident guy who could hold his own against anyone, I get the same impression from Lehner. If your goalie is a confident & driven individual that can become contagious for everyone else.

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01-03-2011, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeSakic View Post
The problem with this team, with BM and with Muckler is that I can't remember the last trade that this team made off like bandits...over the life of the deal. Everything seems to be a latteral move. Now if the GM is able to move Kuba and Campoli (whom I assume is not in the teams plans long term) for decent returns then maybe we can say the Mesz trade is one. That tells me that this team is more worried about investing money into being a cap team (and managing it horribly) rather than spending big dollars on a strong pro AND amateur scouting department. Great organizations spare no expense when it comes to their scouting staffs because they're the ones that uncover the diamonds in the rough. They're the ones that give their GMs options both in the draft but also come FA time.
There aren't many trades that occur in general and there really aren't many that occur nowadays where someone makes off like bandits. Boston made off great in the Kessel trade but the irony is at the time I envisioned Boston losing that trade.

I'm pretty lenient on the Heatley situation to all parties involved. It was a situation that wreaks collusion and we were put into a tough spot on so many levels. There were people here who identified Cheechoo confidently as a player of the past...I doubt our pro scouts wanted him in the deal because they anticipated a 20 goal scorer. We were left in a tough spot.

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01-03-2011, 10:25 PM
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Ottawa has a number of prospects with "diamond in the rough" potential but only time will tell & Murray likely won't be around to get the credit for it. What I like the most about what the Murrays have done is that they are making our team(s) bigger & tougher with guys like Cowen, Lehner, Gryba, Wiercioch, Greening, Z. Smith, Stone, Rundblad, Blood, Sdao, Culek, Grant, DZ, Cowick, O'Brien & Lessard.
Yeah for sure but that's a testament to our amateur scouting....I really think our scouting out of Sweden as a result of Forsberg looks extremely promising.

We have not brought any true diamonds in the rough as a result of pro scouting...but that doesn't necessarily mean they haven't identified anyone. But, who knows.

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01-03-2011, 10:47 PM
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The article is interesting. IMO Murray shouldn't get to fire Clouston and keep his job for two reasons.

The first one is obviously that this will be the 3rd coach fired in 4 seasons. He's obviously got no idea how to pick a HC.

The other reason though, is that Clouston was brought on as an interim coach after he fired Hartsburg. Clouston angered Heatley by refusing to play him on the 1st PP unit and Murray picked Clouston, the interim HC over Heatley.

I get that you can't give the perception that your star player makes decisions for the whole organization, but that wasn't really necessary in this case. Murray could have kept Heatley by canning Clouston and saying the plan was never to have Clouston as a permanent HC.

He picked Clouston though, so if he's firing him now he's admitting he made a completely retarded move that justifies his immediate termination.

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01-03-2011, 10:47 PM
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Yeah for sure but that's a testament to our amateur scouting....I really think our scouting out of Sweden as a result of Forsberg looks extremely promising.

We have not brought any true diamonds in the rough as a result of pro scouting...but that doesn't necessarily mean they haven't identified anyone. But, who knows.
Agreed, there is all kinds of information about players today & scouts watch these guys a lot before decisons are made. I think you have to get lucky with some players that they just happen to blosom in your system or they come of age just at the time you trade for them. I wanted to trade for Moulson when he was with LA before becoming a scorer with the NYI. I also see a player like Billy Sweat that way if we could have gotten him from LA or now from Vancouver.

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01-03-2011, 10:53 PM
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Im fine with McGuire. I REALLY want an expert capologist though.

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01-03-2011, 10:54 PM
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The first one is obviously that this will be the 3rd coach fired in 4 seasons. He's obviously got no idea how to pick a HC.
All that really means is Murray made poor coaching picks in his time in Ottawa. Didn't Bryan Murray hire Scotty Bowman in Detroit, he was the GM of Detroit at the time of Bowman's hiring. I realize this is a long time ago...but it's also ironic.

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01-03-2011, 10:54 PM
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Im fine with McGuire. I REALLY want an expert capologist though.
Who are experts in capology?

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01-03-2011, 11:16 PM
  #97
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Facts

Michalek: Garbage
Cheechoo: Garbage
Kuba: Garbage
Leclaire: Garbage
Kovalev: Garbage
Campoli: Garbage
Carkner: Garbage
Gonchar: Garbage
Stillman/Commodore: Garbage
Cullen/Sutton: Great BUT we don't re-sign them.

Murray has failed miserably, overlooking players we could have used and acquiring junk.

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01-03-2011, 11:24 PM
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I am not saying Murray won't be fired, but the source of this is Steve Simmons, has he ever got anything right????

Wouldn't surprise me if he wrote this to get back into Burkie's good books by taking the heat off of his mess in TO

However if it is true, and Melnyk fires Murray I hope to hell it isn't McGuire. While he is his own biggest admirer, Pierre changes his position on players and teams more often than Clouston changes lines around.

McGuire has been kissing everyone's ass he could to get a job in the NHL, every team has passed him over, hopefully Melnyk does the same if he is hiring.

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01-03-2011, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by theyellowsub View Post
Facts

Michalek: Garbage
Cheechoo: Garbage
Kuba: Garbage
Leclaire: Garbage
Kovalev: Garbage
Campoli: Garbage
Carkner: Garbage
Gonchar: Garbage
Stillman/Commodore: Garbage
Cullen/Sutton: Great BUT we don't re-sign them.

Murray has failed miserably, overlooking players we could have used and acquiring junk.
Well, you are entitled to your opinion. Anything can be boiled anything down to a convenient black and white scenario. However, if you want to make a valid argument please do so. Terse statements of 'fact' like this just make you look obtuse.

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01-03-2011, 11:49 PM
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Who are experts in capology?
There's no such thing as a capologist, there are only people who are smarter than others.

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