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Old
01-05-2011, 02:39 AM
  #26
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Old
01-05-2011, 02:55 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by NewtonsApple View Post
Geno is the most disgustingly overrated player in the history of overrated players. He has amazing dangling skills, great shot, and good hockey sense. He doesnt play hard, not good in the defensive zone, hes a floater, he seemingly lacks any motivation or passion for the game. He even floats in the offensive zone. He is a lethargic one dimensional player who isn't putting up the same numbers he did early in his career, and i wouldnt be surprised if he never does again. All this while remaining a defensive liability. The "Big 3" is a tired cliche from 2008 which needs to die. I take Staal every day and twice on Sunday. Carolina says no.


Art Ross, Conn Smythe, most points in one playoff year by any forward not named Gretzky or Lemieux: 2009

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Old
01-05-2011, 03:05 AM
  #28
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08-09 season. Regardless, he is the most overrated player in the NHL when people put him as top 3 in the league. He's not top 3, and he will, imo, never put up top 3 stats again. Again, hes a one dimensional lethargic player who can be a defensive liability, who i doubt will ever be top 3 in points again. And he is making almost 9m a season. Staal please. Thanks.

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01-05-2011, 03:09 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by NewtonsApple View Post
08-09 season. Regardless, he is the most overrated player in the NHL when people put him as top 3 in the league. He's not top 3, and he will, imo, never put up top 3 stats again. Again, hes a one dimensional lethargic player who can be a defensive liability, who i doubt will ever be top 3 in points again. And he is making almost 9m a season. Staal please. Thanks.
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01-05-2011, 03:23 AM
  #30
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The way Malkin is considered now reminds me of the Alexei Yashin was considered prior to leaving Ottawa. Scoring 94 points and 88 points in the dead puck era in 1998-1999 and 2000-2001. He was bar none at the time one of the rising stars of the league and widely considered one of the most talented players in the game, but his disinterest eventually claimed his talent.

I think the signs of disinterest are already culminating in Malkin and his tangible production seems to hash that out. There is no reason a player as talented as Malkin that gets to play on the same powerplay as Sidney Crosby should be putting up such pedestrian numbers.

I wouldn't touch this trade with a 10 foot pole. I would be shocked if Malkin is still in the discussion as one of the best in the game in five years.

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01-05-2011, 03:38 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
The way Malkin is considered now reminds me of the Alexei Yashin was considered prior to leaving Ottawa. Scoring 94 points and 88 points in the dead puck era in 1998-1999 and 2000-2001. He was bar none at the time one of the rising stars of the league and widely considered one of the most talented players in the game, but his disinterest eventually claimed his talent.

I think the signs of disinterest are already culminating in Malkin and his tangible production seems to hash that out. There is no reason a player as talented as Malkin that gets to play on the same powerplay as Sidney Crosby should be putting up such pedestrian numbers.

I wouldn't touch this trade with a 10 foot pole. I would be shocked if Malkin is still in the discussion as one of the best in the game in five years.
Malkin has 13 PP points, 3 fewer than Crosby, and has played 5 fewer games. That's as many as Getzlaf and more than Kopitar, despite playing on a worse PP (in case you feel like paying attention to the actual numbers, instead of just looking at one player). The Pens PP also happens to be worse than the Canes' PP, where Staal has exactly one more PP point in 3 more games.

Further, Malkin has been injured the last year and a half and played with a rotating cast of such scoring sensations as Fedotenko, Dupuis, Cooke, and Talbot at even-strength.

EDIT: Ovechkin also has only 14 PP points.


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01-05-2011, 03:42 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
I think the signs of disinterest are already culminating in Malkin and his tangible production seems to hash that out. There is no reason a player as talented as Malkin that gets to play on the same powerplay as Sidney Crosby should be putting up such pedestrian numbers.

I wouldn't touch this trade with a 10 foot pole. I would be shocked if Malkin is still in the discussion as one of the best in the game in five years.
We don't have a great PP. I don't understand how anyone can keep trotting this one out. Either way, Malkin is actually less to blame for that than Crosby who forces his passes on the PP far too much and unless Malkin is there to provide the big-gun threat, our PP is entirely hopeless.
The real problem for the PP of course is neither of them, but rather the lack of a genuine PP QB (with Gonchar playing our PP was always 20% or better) and being too easy to key in on as there's no threat from the left wall and Kunitz is an emergency stop gap in front of the net. A good PP is more about having quality and complimentary players everywhere than having one or two elite players.

ANYWAY... as for disinterest..... all Pens fans would expect Malkin to do more than he is, sure, but it remains that he has been visibly hampered by injury which he is finally getting over, and more so there is not a single top player in the league that has to succeed with linemates as poor as what Malkin has had these past 18 months. Fedotenko + Dupuis/Talbot last year and Cooke + Talbot/Asham this year. There's not a player among them who should be more than a third liner and for all those who then wants to mention Crosby... yeah, but apart from being better than Malkin he DOES have Kunitz who is a genuine top6 player.
How Malkin managed to do what he did in the 08/09 remains insane, but both Talbot and Fedotenko over-performed like crazy in the playoffs which helped.

Going forward he should never see linemates that bad again with Staal back now and cap-space for wing-improvements next season. It is going to be a treat watching people eat their words about him when things come right for him again, and nothing would shock me less than Malkin ending top10 in scoring this season despite this first half season.

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01-05-2011, 03:49 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Malkin has 13 PP points, 3 fewer than Crosby, and has played 5 fewer games. That's as many as Getzlaf and more than Kopitar, despite playing on a worse PP (in case you feel like paying attention to the actual numbers, instead of just looking at one player). The Pens PP also happens to be worse than the Canes' PP, where Staal has exactly one more PP point in 3 more games.

Further, Malkin has been injured the last year and a half and played with a rotating cast of such scoring sensations as Fedotenko, Dupuis, Cooke, and Talbot at even-strength.

Ryan Kesler was injured last year and has played with a rotating cast of Samuelson, Raymond, and more recently Tambellini and Hansen. Malkin has 2 less points, 5 less goals, and is a -1 comparably to Kes +14. Now obviously Malkin in terms of raw talent is vastly superior, but these stats dont lie. These are not the stats of a top 3 player in the world. No excuses of injury or poor linemates will suffice either. Besides, he plays the pp with Sidney freaking Crosby. Malkin lost the fire, and i will put all my vcash on him not being top 3 in points again. Ever.

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01-05-2011, 04:01 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by NewtonsApple View Post
Ryan Kesler was injured last year and has played with a rotating cast of Samuelson, Raymond, and more recently Tambellini and Hansen. Malkin has 2 less points, 5 less goals, and is a -1 comparably to Kes +14.
Are you combining two seasons here?

Quote:
Now obviously Malkin in terms of raw talent is vastly superior, but these stats dont lie. These are not the stats of a top 3 player in the world. No excuses of injury or poor linemates will suffice either.
If that's what you want to believe.

Quote:
Besides, he plays the pp with Sidney freaking Crosby. Malkin lost the fire, and i will put all my vcash on him not being top 3 in points again. Ever.
My, though it's easy to make brash predictions when you won't be around by the time they're proven wrong.

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01-05-2011, 04:18 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Further, Malkin has been injured the last year and a half and played with a rotating cast of such scoring sensations as Fedotenko, Dupuis, Cooke, and Talbot at even-strength.
Only because you were.


Linemates excuse is just that. A top 3 player in the world makes the players around him better, they dont rely on other talent to put up points.



Meh. Fair enough. Though, im rather confident Malkin will never see his return to top 3 status again.

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01-05-2011, 05:42 AM
  #36
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Wait Malkin is a defensive liablility now? I could have SWORN Staal was moved to RW for those similar reasons last year...

Regardless, Didn't Malkin lead the league in takeaway in 08-09? Doesn't sound like a liability to me...

Anyone who would take Eric over Malkin is delusional. Name one me thing Staal > Malkin at. One.

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01-05-2011, 05:46 AM
  #37
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>Struggles badly on face-offs. Isn't as dominant when he plays either wing position, since he is denied the puck more often along the wall. Takes bad penalties and is a little careless with the puck in the defensive zone.<


Official scouting report on Evgeni Malkin as per Sdnation, the hockey news. Also anyone who watches Penguins games can see it for themselves. Those who dont can feel safe taking the opinion of paid professional hockey analysts.

Malkin had one of the worst Corsi rankings during that year was near the top of the league in takeaways.

(http://www.kuklaskorner.com/index.ph...corsi_numbers/)

Not to mention takeaways are not indicative of defensive play. Watching Malkin shows he is clearly weak in the defensive zone. Want more proof? Chara, Doughty, Weber and Keith weren't anywhere near the lead league in takeaways last year. So they must not be very good defensively according to your reasoning.

Here is an interesting article about takeaways as a Selke stat. http://www.zimbio.com/Pavel+Datsyuk/...s+A+Selke+Stat


Staal is a solid 2 way forward. Defensively he is in another stratosphere than Malkin. Oh, and he's producing more offensively this year as well. Carolina says no.


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01-05-2011, 06:37 AM
  #38
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Wait Malkin is a defensive liablility now? I could have SWORN Staal was moved to RW for those similar reasons last year...

Regardless, Didn't Malkin lead the league in takeaway in 08-09? Doesn't sound like a liability to me...

Anyone who would take Eric over Malkin is delusional. Name one me thing Staal > Malkin at. One.
Leadership.....

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01-05-2011, 06:39 AM
  #39
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>Struggles badly on face-offs. Isn't as dominant when he plays either wing position, since he is denied the puck more often along the wall. Takes bad penalties and is a little careless with the puck in the defensive zone.<


Official scouting report on Evgeni Malkin as per Sdnation, the hockey news. Also anyone who watches Penguins games can see it for themselves. Those who dont can feel safe taking the opinion of paid professional hockey analysts.

Malkin had one of the worst Corsi rankings during that year was near the top of the league in takeaways.

(http://www.kuklaskorner.com/index.ph...corsi_numbers/)

Not to mention takeaways are not indicative of defensive play. Watching Malkin shows he is clearly weak in the defensive zone. Want more proof? Chara, Doughty, Weber and Keith weren't anywhere near the lead league in takeaways last year. So they must not be very good defensively according to your reasoning.

Here is an interesting article about takeaways as a Selke stat. http://www.zimbio.com/Pavel+Datsyuk/...s+A+Selke+Stat


Staal is a solid 2 way forward. Defensively he is in another stratosphere than Malkin. Oh, and he's producing more offensively this year as well. Carolina says no.
I don't know why you think the fact that allstar dmen don't have a lot of takeaways means they're not indicative of solid defensive play, forwards tend to have a lot more takeaways than dmen anyway. Staal isn't in another stratosphere than Malkin defensively. Since Malkin has been in the league he's outproduced Staal every year, in 06-07 by 15 points, in 07-08 by 24 points, in 08-09 by 38 points and in 09-10 by 7 points.

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01-05-2011, 06:42 AM
  #40
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Quote:
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Anyone who would take Eric over Malkin is delusional. Name one me thing Staal > Malkin at. One.
Being Canadian

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Old
01-05-2011, 06:49 AM
  #41
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I don't know why you think the fact that allstar dmen don't have a lot of takeaways means they're not indicative of solid defensive play, forwards tend to have a lot more takeaways than dmen anyway. Staal isn't in another stratosphere than Malkin defensively. Since Malkin has been in the league he's outproduced Staal every year, in 06-07 by 15 points, in 07-08 by 24 points, in 08-09 by 38 points and in 09-10 by 7 points.
I was saying exactly that in response to one person saying "Malkin had takeaways which means hes not weak defensively". Clearly those elite dmen are great defensively despite not being anywhere near the lead league in takeaways. That was the point.

I just provided Corsi ratings and scouting reports, with links to hockey analysts who refute your claim. All you have done is made an ad hominem statement (about his defence).

Malkin is a lethargic one dimensional forward who is regressing offensively. He seems disinterested and is a defensive liability that's weak on the draw. He has all the natural skill one could dream of, which would compensate for defensive weakness..... if he was actually producing like one of the top 3 players on the planet. Eric Staal's bio is one as a solid 2 way player, who isn't lethargic. Oh, and he's producing better offensively this year. Carolina says no.


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01-05-2011, 06:56 AM
  #42
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I'm sensing a pattern.

Step 1: Non-Pens fan makes a trade proposal involving a Pens player

Step 2: Pens fans say they'd prefer not to give up the star player for something that they feel isn't fair value

Step 3(a): Fans tell Pens fans that they ridiculously overrate their players.

or

Step 3(b): Fans tell Pens fans that if they want to get something in return, they have to give! Regardless of the fact that Pens fans weren't asking for anything in the first place

Step 4: ???

Step 5: Profit

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01-05-2011, 07:17 AM
  #43
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I was saying exactly that in response to one person saying "Malkin had takeaways which means hes not weak defensively". Clearly those elite dmen are great defensively despite not being anywhere near the lead league in takeaways. That was the point.

I just provided Corsi ratings and scouting reports, with links to hockey analysts who refute your claim. All you have done is made an ad hominem statement (about his defence).

Malkin is a lethargic one dimensional forward who is regressing offensively. He seems disinterested and is a defensive liability that's weak on the draw. He has all the natural skill one could dream of, which would compensate for defensive weakness..... if he was actually producing like one of the top 3 players on the planet. Eric Staal's bio is one as a solid 2 way player, who isn't lethargic. Oh, and he's producing better offensively this year. Carolina says no.
You're clearly not actually watching Malkin if you think he's lethargic, as Tender Rip pointed out he's trying to do too much with the puck at the moment. Some of your Hockey analysts are actually to Red Wing Bloggers. The Blog says Malkin uses takeaways to create offence which is correct but it doesn't change the fact that it's good defence on his part to. Malkin's abysmal on the draw but Staal's pretty weak himself. You pointed out Staal's producing better offensively this year (only just and we're only halfway through the season) but you seem to ignore the fact that Malkin's outproduced Staal every year and by more than Staal is on pace to outscore Malkin by this year.

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Old
01-05-2011, 07:19 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn911 View Post
Pittsburgh- Eric Staal

Carolina- Malkin

Thoughts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn911 View Post
Staal is much better then Malkin Overall..by far.
I know I shouldn't be surprised, but...

Can someone explain this to me? Why propose a deal, straight up, of two players, only to post 8 minutes later that one is much better overall than the other? What is the point of making that trade?

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01-05-2011, 07:26 AM
  #45
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You're clearly not actually watching Malkin if you think he's lethargic, as Tender Rip pointed out he's trying to do too much with the puck at the moment. Some of your Hockey analysts are actually to Red Wing Bloggers. The Blog says Malkin uses takeaways to create offence which is correct but it doesn't change the fact that it's good defence on his part to. Malkin's abysmal on the draw but Staal's pretty weak himself. You pointed out Staal's producing better offensively this year (only just and we're only halfway through the season) but you seem to ignore the fact that Malkin's outproduced Staal every year and by more than Staal is on pace to outscore Malkin by this year.
Actually, its because i watch Pens games that i say Malkin is lethargic. In fact, Malkin is rapidly developing the reputation as a lazy player, because people watch his games. The fact you dont see it blows me away. Even a Pens fan in this very thread admitted hes kind of being lazy right now. And no, lol, they werent red wings bloggers. Thats just not true. And the takeaways are not indicative of his defensive play, they are indicative of his offence, and the teams aggressive forecheck (not to mention 2 years removed)

The Corsi ratings are widely known and respected by all Gm's, scouts and coaches in the Nhl. Bloggers and professional analysts seem to be at a consensus that Malkin just doesn't look the same. Google Malkin and lethargic. Again, all you are doing is making ad hominem statements. I provide stats, corsi ratings, and professional hockey analysts opinions. If you'd like ill provide more. Lots more.

Again, Malkin is not a top 3 player in the world. That is gross overrating. He's a lethargic one dimensional player who can be a defensive liability. The official report is that hes weak on the draw and along the boards. He is widely known to play lethargic and not defensively responsible. If he was producing offensively like a top 3 player in the world, id overlook his shortcomings. Buts hes not, and i dont think he will again. Carolina says no.


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01-05-2011, 07:36 AM
  #46
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So provide some professional hockey analysts opinions about Malkin being lazy. I don't see it, I see him messing things up because he forces things when it doesn't come naturally for him, I see him make dumb decisions because he gets fired up too easily if anything. His issues don't come from a lack of trying or laziness. A takeaway is a defensive play, no matter what spin you want to put on it.

If you really watched the Pens, or hell if you just wanted to bother checking stats, you would see that bringing up the fact he plays on the PP with Sid doesn't mean anything. The Pens PP stinks, it has done for a few seasons. It's not some benefit to him that should be brought up to try bring him down,.

Funnily enough if you google Malkin and lethargic as you suggest, the second and fourth result are you posting here. The top hit is an article on suite101 which is made up of user generated submissions. So yes, it's clearly raging throughout the internet. There's one article on bleacherreport (the one on 412sports is the same article) In fact, it's such a widely discussed topic on the internet that the first page of hits contains a googlebooks link for "Jews and the Making of Modern German Theatre". Perhaps you should have googled Malkin and lethargic before making that comment

I do think however that the way he cruises about the ice does make him look like he isn't going all out though.

I don't see what you think prattling on about him not being a top 3 player in the world is supposed to achieve? Staal never has and never will be close to a top 3 player at his position let alone top 3 player in the world. Carolina can say no all they want, that doesn't mean the Pens wouldn't be turning this down also, the Pens wouldn't even entertain this for a moment. You don't downgrade just because he's the brother of another guy on the team.


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01-05-2011, 07:46 AM
  #47
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Again, Malkin is not a top 3 player in the world. That is gross overrating.
I don't think anyone is claiming that Malkin has been playing like a top3 player this past 1 season. I don't think Ovechkin has for the past season either. Doesn't mean the latter isn't one, doesn't mean Malkin can't/won't be again either.

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He's a lethargic one dimensional player who can be a defensive liability.
Well, we can count on Malkin being a PPG player at his worst, coping with injuries and having worse linemates than any other star in the league. Perhaps your characterisation could be consider gross hyperbole?

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If he was producing offensively like a top 3 player in the world, id overlook his shortcomings. Buts hes not, and i dont think he will again.
No time like the present. In the future, we will laugh at you .

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01-05-2011, 07:58 AM
  #48
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So provide some professional hockey analysts opinions about Malkin being lazy. I don't see it, I see him messing things up because he forces things when it doesn't come naturally for him, I see him make dumb decisions because he gets fired up too easily if anything. His issues don't come from a lack of trying or laziness. A takeaway is a defensive play, no matter what spin you want to put on it.

Funnily enough if you google Malkin and lethargic, the third result is you posting in here.

I do think however that the way he cruises about the ice does make him look like he isn't going all out though.

I don't see what you think prattling on about him not being a top 3 player in the world is supposed to achieve? Staal never has and never will be close to a top 3 player at his position let alone top 3 player in the world.
No, Staal is not top 3. But neither is Malkin. And as of right now Staal is producing more offensively without all the defensive shortcomings.

http://www.suite101.com/content/is-p...ntract-a305398

http://www.hockeypolls.com/content/p...n-produce-more

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=29199125 (Hf boards where malkin is a god, and still many people agree that he is playing lazy)

http://www.412sportstalk.net/2010/12...more-from.html

>-I wasn’t too impressed with Geno. He had a pretty nice first period, but he did not look good in the final two periods. He gave the puck away more than a few times to start the second, then he seemed to take some hard hits. I hope, for the team’s sake, that he’s not hurt again. One thing that’s worse than a lethargic Malkin is no Malkin.<

Quote from a Pittsburgh analyst after a loss.

http://www.letsgopens.com/scripts/ph...49639&start=25

>When Malkin's lazy backcheck that led to sloppy penalties and lackluster attitude on the ice replaced his defensive savviness and offensive hunger, the disappointment in the fans and media was constricting. People panicked and demanded his immediate trade for a winger for Crosby<

Another quote from a Penguins columnist. They expected it to change this year. It hasnt.


I dont wanna keep searching google. Im not out of line with my claims. Carolina says no.

"The Big 3" is no more.

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01-05-2011, 08:00 AM
  #49
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So you link Suite101 and hfboards lol? I already mentioned those. and one is letsgopens forums lol?

Heck I have an account on Suite101, I could go publish an article right now saying the exact opposite of that one.

You are the second hit on google when searching for Malkin and lethargic. That's how widely spread that topic is.

and you realize you link to a page on a forum with comments such as

"About Malkin, let's not call him lazy. I don't see lazy."

"Malkin looks alive tonight!"

"Malkin isn't lazy. Anyone who thinks he's lazy should watch the Nashville game this season. He is giving strong effort out there. Things just aren't working for him right now for whatever reason. Ultimately it is his responsibility to turn things around and start scoring but his effort is there."

I don't care if Carolina says no or not because this proposal is beyond stupid.


Last edited by Morozov: 01-05-2011 at 08:06 AM.
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01-05-2011, 08:08 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn911 View Post
Staal is much better then Malkin Overall..by far.
Then why in the hell are you making this proposal?

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