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Old
01-04-2011, 03:40 PM
  #26
TMI
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Probably not, but NJ should have a top three pick. The trouble with moving Suter right now is our team would most certainly not make the play offs without him. Weber has the spotlight on him, but he isn't able to do all of the things that make people say ooo-aahhh without Suter's incredible vision, mobility, passing, and overall positioning. A number one pick doesn't help us right now, and we can't take on salary beyond what is going the other way.

We need NHL ready forwards now. Not prospects with a high ceiling, forwards who could be franchise players (we couldn't re-sign them anyway with our internal budget, right? ). We need guys who can be plugged into holes until some of our injured guys come back. Want to toss Parise in the mix? I think at that point anyone listens.

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01-04-2011, 04:07 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Probably not, but NJ should have a top three pick. The trouble with moving Suter right now is our team would most certainly not make the play offs without him. Weber has the spotlight on him, but he isn't able to do all of the things that make people say ooo-aahhh without Suter's incredible vision, mobility, passing, and overall positioning. A number one pick doesn't help us right now, and we can't take on salary beyond what is going the other way.

We need NHL ready forwards now. Not prospects with a high ceiling, forwards who could be franchise players (we couldn't re-sign them anyway with our internal budget, right? ). We need guys who can be plugged into holes until some of our injured guys come back. Want to toss Parise in the mix? I think at that point anyone listens.
But isn't Parise injured and not going to start skating until mid-February or mid-March?

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01-04-2011, 04:12 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Probably not, but NJ should have a top three pick. The trouble with moving Suter right now is our team would most certainly not make the play offs without him. Weber has the spotlight on him, but he isn't able to do all of the things that make people say ooo-aahhh without Suter's incredible vision, mobility, passing, and overall positioning. A number one pick doesn't help us right now, and we can't take on salary beyond what is going the other way.

We need NHL ready forwards now. Not prospects with a high ceiling, forwards who could be franchise players (we couldn't re-sign them anyway with our internal budget, right? ). We need guys who can be plugged into holes until some of our injured guys come back. Want to toss Parise in the mix? I think at that point anyone listens.
My "offer" would be taken into consideration by Poile only at this years draft for obvious reasons. The first one would be that the moving Suter now would kill your SCP run and the second would be that NJ would get better now, meaning that our/your pick wouldn't be as high.

Adding a young stud like Couturier or RNH for example will help you guys down the road and would shift your power to defense only to a more rounded team. You would have a franchise forward for the next 6 years before making the big bucks and hitting free agency. Like I said earlier, we have the same problem but the other way around. We have Elias, IK, Parise, Zajac and Rolston () who are all taking up a big portion of our cap for the next couple of years and if we can bring in a #1 d-men, that would stabilise our team.

Thanks for the feedback guys, I'll leave you alone now

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01-04-2011, 04:13 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by DEVILS ALL THE WAY View Post
Once again, we would have to replace a backup (we can sign a guy for 500K), a 4th line center (Sestito is doing the job at 500K), Langenbrunner won't be missed since Elias and Tedenby are doing a very solid job at RW and Arnott's spot will be taken by Jacob Josefson who's injured this year. That leaves us with a 3rd line center that can be filled with Zubrus if need be. We have several players that can play all 3 positions and our lineup will probably look a little something like this...

IK-Elias-Tedenby
Parise-Zajac-Zubrus
Rolston-Josefson-Clarkson
Zharkov-Sestito-Pelley


Anyways, I appreciate the concern you have regarding our "cap problems" but we'll be fine

My question was, would Poile consider moving Suter for a #1 overall pick and other assets... not "Are the NJD screwed regarding the cap?".
Your proposal fails any common sense test from the Devils perspective because of their cap issues. Using your forwards, Suter, and the cheapest possible players to round out a 22 man roster puts the Devils at over $61.5mil cap hit if Parise signs at $5mil (best case). No room for injury callups, extreme risk between the pipes and 7 players making $550k or less to stay under a $2.5mil cap increase.

A $500k backup in Jersey is a fantasy with the way Brodeur is playing of late ... ok, the past couple of seasons. There is a reason why Hedberg was brought in and has started 11 games already. Marty is no longer the guy who can play 72+ games a season. At $500k you're looking at a guy who is hanging out in the AHL, and he's probably not excelling there. (Krahn, Bacashihua, Pogge, etc) Even our rookie backup goalie is an $875k cap hit.

If you honestly think that the Devils can trade pics for a $3.5mil contract coming back and still sign Parise for $5mil or more while still putting together a full roster for next season ... well, your head is obviously buried deep in the sand.

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01-04-2011, 04:23 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
Your proposal fails any common sense test from the Devils perspective because of their cap issues. Using your forwards, Suter, and the cheapest possible players to round out a 22 man roster puts the Devils at over $61.5mil cap hit if Parise signs at $5mil (best case). No room for injury callups, extreme risk between the pipes and 7 players making $550k or less to stay under a $2.5mil cap increase.

A $500k backup in Jersey is a fantasy with the way Brodeur is playing of late ... ok, the past couple of seasons. There is a reason why Hedberg was brought in and has started 11 games already. Marty is no longer the guy who can play 72+ games a season. At $500k you're looking at a guy who is hanging out in the AHL, and he's probably not excelling there. (Krahn, Bacashihua, Pogge, etc) Even our rookie backup goalie is an $875k cap hit.

If you honestly think that the Devils can trade pics for a $3.5mil contract coming back and still sign Parise for $5mil or more while still putting together a full roster for next season ... well, your head is obviously buried deep in the sand.
I want to reply to your post and explain to you why our team isn't in "cap hell" ala Chicago this summer but it will probably waste about 10 minutes of my day writting a post that won't change your mind regardless. If you think we are screwed for the upcoming year or the year after that (like the media seems to think) for whatever reasons, more power to you.

If we do acquire Suter and his 3.5M$ cap hit, the quick fix would be to waive Salvador who has a 3M$ cap hit if there's no takers for a trade... problem solved.

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01-04-2011, 05:23 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Pattypred View Post
But isn't Parise injured and not going to start skating until mid-February or mid-March?
Yeah from what I hear. I was just trying to illustrate how unlikely it is that a deal is struck for Suter this year. Maybe towards the end of next year if we're a seller at the deadline and it looks like he's going to be too pricey, but this year it would be idiotic to ship him off without some sort of monster return.

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01-04-2011, 05:34 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by DEVILS ALL THE WAY View Post
I want to reply to your post and explain to you why our team isn't in "cap hell" ala Chicago this summer but it will probably waste about 10 minutes of my day writting a post that won't change your mind regardless. If you think we are screwed for the upcoming year or the year after that (like the media seems to think) for whatever reasons, more power to you.

If we do acquire Suter and his 3.5M$ cap hit, the quick fix would be to waive Salvador who has a 3M$ cap hit if there's no takers for a trade... problem solved.
You want to claim that the Devils aren't in cap hell then propose a move that guarantees that they would be deep in it with the very Blackhawks-like solution of burying a contract to get out of it.

The Devils simply cannot take on a $3.5mil hit without moving salary out while simultaneously taking significant risks at the backup goalie position, skating an almost all entry level contract 4th line, and counting on a group of league minimum guys to round out a roster.

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01-04-2011, 08:34 PM
  #33
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Two things, as high as we are on Josi, Blum and Ellis, none are the complete package that Suter is. Not even close. The way we develop defensemen it will be 3 years before any of them are viable NHL options on the blue line. Look at the Klein and Franson situations. Look at how long it took Suter and Weber to develop too. None of the three mentioned are in the same class and we won't know until down the road if they'll even approach the hype. Why trade your best all around player for a top draft pick that may or may not pan out. The ownership has stated the money will be there to sign Suter and Weber and if they don't put their money where there mouth is then bad on them.

Secondly, if I were a GM of either team, I'd make a Weber for Parise swap. It gives the Devils the big bad defenseman they've missed since Stevens retired and it gives the Preds a top 3 forward that they've never had but would fit the two way system we play. It also keeps Suter in Nashville which to me is a lot more important than keeping Weber in Nashville. I am a huge Weber fan but the reason Weber is so successful is because of the guy that is paired with him. Suter can survive without Weber whereas Weber will struggle when paired with other defensemen. It's not a bash on Weber but he has limitations to his game and where he isn't strong, Suter excels at. They make a great pairing but if I had to pick one to build a team around at this point I'd have to pick Suter.

So in answer to your question, no, Suter is not available.

The only way Suter becomes available is if Poile realizes he can't re-sign Suter and trades him at next years trade line.

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01-04-2011, 11:52 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
Two things, as high as we are on Josi, Blum and Ellis, none are the complete package that Suter is. Not even close. The way we develop defensemen it will be 3 years before any of them are viable NHL options on the blue line. Look at the Klein and Franson situations. Look at how long it took Suter and Weber to develop too. None of the three mentioned are in the same class and we won't know until down the road if they'll even approach the hype. Why trade your best all around player for a top draft pick that may or may not pan out. The ownership has stated the money will be there to sign Suter and Weber and if they don't put their money where there mouth is then bad on them.

Secondly, if I were a GM of either team, I'd make a Weber for Parise swap. It gives the Devils the big bad defenseman they've missed since Stevens retired and it gives the Preds a top 3 forward that they've never had but would fit the two way system we play. It also keeps Suter in Nashville which to me is a lot more important than keeping Weber in Nashville. I am a huge Weber fan but the reason Weber is so successful is because of the guy that is paired with him. Suter can survive without Weber whereas Weber will struggle when paired with other defensemen. It's not a bash on Weber but he has limitations to his game and where he isn't strong, Suter excels at. They make a great pairing but if I had to pick one to build a team around at this point I'd have to pick Suter.

So in answer to your question, no, Suter is not available.

The only way Suter becomes available is if Poile realizes he can't re-sign Suter and trades him at next years trade line.
If they can't sign both then they need to trade both which actually say that this idea that we are building from within is just talk and that we can't compete playing on a shoe string budget. If the present ownership lets either one go then how do you expect to compete. Weber hasn't had a good year so far but he's still a ways from his prime. I think Trotz is the main reason for the stunted growth on both sides. Why hasn't the Weber/Suter pairing been broken up to strengthen the other pairing which are less than stellar. I would do as follows
Weber/Franson/Sulzer/Laasko/Josi/Blum
Suter/Klein
Bouillion/OBrien
This makes more sense than having one pairing real good and the other pairing less than mediocre. Suter would shore up Klein while Weber would be allowed to roam and let the other defenseman play back
The Weber and Suter are not shutdown defenseman yet. Not like Keith and Seabrook were in last years playoffs for Chicago
For one thing the Devils aren't going to trade Parise. The Devil have Volchenkov who they have sunk big bucks into. If they got Weber they would two defenseman making close to 10 mil and Kovalchuk making 10 then they really would be hung out to dry. They would have to get rid of Zajac and Langenbruner and Elias to make this work. So this is just an exercise in futility.


Last edited by roseyc: 01-04-2011 at 11:56 PM. Reason: missing words
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01-05-2011, 06:23 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by roseyc View Post
If they can't sign both then they need to trade both which actually say that this idea that we are building from within is just talk and that we can't compete playing on a shoe string budget. If the present ownership lets either one go then how do you expect to compete. Weber hasn't had a good year so far but he's still a ways from his prime. I think Trotz is the main reason for the stunted growth on both sides. Why hasn't the Weber/Suter pairing been broken up to strengthen the other pairing which are less than stellar. I would do as follows
Weber/Franson/Sulzer/Laasko/Josi/Blum
Suter/Klein
Bouillion/OBrien
This makes more sense than having one pairing real good and the other pairing less than mediocre. Suter would shore up Klein while Weber would be allowed to roam and let the other defenseman play back
The Weber and Suter are not shutdown defenseman yet. Not like Keith and Seabrook were in last years playoffs for Chicago
For one thing the Devils aren't going to trade Parise. The Devil have Volchenkov who they have sunk big bucks into. If they got Weber they would two defenseman making close to 10 mil and Kovalchuk making 10 then they really would be hung out to dry. They would have to get rid of Zajac and Langenbruner and Elias to make this work. So this is just an exercise in futility.
Did you watch the Columbus game on Sunday? What did Suter do to Nash for most, if not all, of the game? Shut him down. He was pretty much a non factor. Hence, shutdown.

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01-05-2011, 06:33 AM
  #36
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You ALWAYS keep a top pair of dmen, especially when your 2 best are right and left hand shots. Most coaches would sell a limb for that. Splitting them up weakens the entire defense, not strengthens it. Think of how lines are setup, you have top d pair matched against top opposing lines. If you split them, then how would you match up against other lines. Putting Weber with any of those other guys reduces Weber's effectiveness by a large margin. Suter and Klein would probably work OK, I don't think as a pair they would come close to being as dominant as Suter and Weber. If we can't keep both signed long term then obviously something else would have to happen, but as long as the 2 of them are wearing the same jersey, splitting them up is counter productive in a big way.

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01-05-2011, 07:22 AM
  #37
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JLSG, I know this is at least 2 seasons away but say we keep Weber, Suter and Klein and Josi pans out the way we think he can, would a Weber/Josi and Suter/Klein set of pairings be effective? Josi to me is the closest thing we have to Suter in the system, a good two way player with natural instincts that can puck handle quite well. Kind of like a poor man's Suter if you will. If he pans out, would it be worth splitting Weber and Suter up at that point and doing the pairings I suggested to give us better depth and always have one of our two studs on the ice for a majority of the game? Anaheim used this to perfection when they had Niedermayer and Pronger. The Devils did the same thing with Stevens and Niedermayer. It basically left them without about 10 minutes of time a game to fill in with their third pairing guys. Also, from what we've seen of Klein this year, a Suter/Klein pairing could be a very good shutdown pair in time as well. It also keeps both top pairings with a right/left combo which I'm in favor of as well.

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01-05-2011, 07:44 AM
  #38
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That's a big if but then what would be the difference between that and having Josi and Klein together? Also Blum could turn out to be the same type of player. Bottom line to this is there really aren't any seriously weak spots in the d corps for the next several years. We all pick on Klein and Franson, but honestly having Cody on a bad night is still better then what some teams have on a good night.

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01-05-2011, 08:10 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by jlsg View Post
That's a big if but then what would be the difference between that and having Josi and Klein together? Also Blum could turn out to be the same type of player. Bottom line to this is there really aren't any seriously weak spots in the d corps for the next several years. We all pick on Klein and Franson, but honestly having Cody on a bad night is still better then what some teams have on a good night.

I think this is a point we frequently forget.

When you are being compared to Suter and Weber, its pretty easy to look like you suck.

but Klein, Franson, and Boullion would all be welcome and considered "good" on pretty much any other team in the league

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01-05-2011, 09:11 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by roseyc View Post
If they can't sign both then they need to trade both which actually say that this idea that we are building from within is just talk and that we can't compete playing on a shoe string budget. If the present ownership lets either one go then how do you expect to compete. Weber hasn't had a good year so far but he's still a ways from his prime. I think Trotz is the main reason for the stunted growth on both sides. Why hasn't the Weber/Suter pairing been broken up to strengthen the other pairing which are less than stellar. I would do as follows
Weber/Franson/Sulzer/Laasko/Josi/Blum
Suter/Klein
Bouillion/OBrien
This makes more sense than having one pairing real good and the other pairing less than mediocre. Suter would shore up Klein while Weber would be allowed to roam and let the other defenseman play back
The Weber and Suter are not shutdown defenseman yet. Not like Keith and Seabrook were in last years playoffs for Chicago
For one thing the Devils aren't going to trade Parise. The Devil have Volchenkov who they have sunk big bucks into. If they got Weber they would two defenseman making close to 10 mil and Kovalchuk making 10 then they really would be hung out to dry. They would have to get rid of Zajac and Langenbruner and Elias to make this work. So this is just an exercise in futility.
Wow - not sure what you want outta' a "shut-down Dman" that Suter isn't - except he's not a beast. Then again, that Lidstrom guy has not only been effective on O but D, too, for a long time and he's not a beast, so..... Suter owned Nash Sunday, and that's not the first time he has absolutely shut-down a key F or controlled the D zone against a good line. He's grown into that role and doing it well.

As for breaking Suter/Weber pairing up, couple reasons you don't. 1) Weber just isn't as effective without Suter. We might try him with Klein, but that really doesn't accomplish what you're suggesting. Suter makes Weber better, plain and simple. 2) We have 3 3rd pairing Dmen, so I'm not sure you really make the other pairings any better. Goes with my point about pairing Klein with Weber (which is the only pairing Trotz didn't try while Suter was out) - why do that instead of Suter? Anyhow, busting them up, you'd basically have each of Suter, Weber, and Klein paired with a guy who should be playing 3rd pair minutes - what good is that? If we had another 2nd pair guy, then maybe it would make sense - you could juggle and make all the pairings better with only a slight decline in your first pair, or you could make 2 "one-and-a-half" pairings and leave your third alone.

We can let Weber go and compete; not suggesting we should, but we could. Not sure we could do the same right now with Suter. Down the line maybe - assuming 1 of Blum/Ellis/Josi grows into the guy we expect

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01-05-2011, 12:37 PM
  #41
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Did you watch the Columbus game on Sunday? What did Suter do to Nash for most, if not all, of the game? Shut him down. He was pretty much a non factor. Hence, shutdown.
Yeah but Nash doesn't have good games against us. The Jackets are enigma team anyways. That is a whole topic about them and frankly I don't care I'm not a fan of there's. This is for the overall. They didn't shut down the Hawks in the playoffs. Don't get me wrong I think Suter and Weber are right on the cusp of being great. I don't think they are there yet...I attribute some of that to Trotz. I can't understand with Weber and Suter on the pp and it's bad just goes to show you that the coaching doesn't have a clue how to illustrate the workings of a pp. I saw one pp when Suter control the puck and took it around the net and fed Weber and he blasted one from the sideboards and scored and I said maybe they have found the solution to the pp. Then after that they went back to old ways of doing things with Sully and Erat with the puck on the sideboards not knowing what to do with the puck. Suter needs to qb the pp and just let him lead ..he has that ability like Brian Leetch did and like others. The whole point that Suter and Weber have to stay. I think we still can get Parise even if we have to load up the truck to get him but not at the expense of Weber and Suter.

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01-05-2011, 12:50 PM
  #42
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Wow - not sure what you want outta' a "shut-down Dman" that Suter isn't - except he's not a beast. Then again, that Lidstrom guy has not only been effective on O but D, too, for a long time and he's not a beast, so..... Suter owned Nash Sunday, and that's not the first time he has absolutely shut-down a key F or controlled the D zone against a good line. He's grown into that role and doing it well.

As for breaking Suter/Weber pairing up, couple reasons you don't. 1) Weber just isn't as effective without Suter. We might try him with Klein, but that really doesn't accomplish what you're suggesting. Suter makes Weber better, plain and simple. 2) We have 3 3rd pairing Dmen, so I'm not sure you really make the other pairings any better. Goes with my point about pairing Klein with Weber (which is the only pairing Trotz didn't try while Suter was out) - why do that instead of Suter? Anyhow, busting them up, you'd basically have each of Suter, Weber, and Klein paired with a guy who should be playing 3rd pair minutes - what good is that? If we had another 2nd pair guy, then maybe it would make sense - you could juggle and make all the pairings better with only a slight decline in your first pair, or you could make 2 "one-and-a-half" pairings and leave your third alone.

We can let Weber go and compete; not suggesting we should, but we could. Not sure we could do the same right now with Suter. Down the line maybe - assuming 1 of Blum/Ellis/Josi grows into the guy we expect
I think Suter and Weber are great enough to be split up. Klein and Franson need help so that they can develop. With Suter and Weber as their pair they are not apprehensive and just develop. This doesn't mean you can't put them back together at times and they will be together on the pp. I think Suter alone can develop even more take on more leadership become more offensive especially with Klein laying back. Weber and Suter are special because if they have both defensive and offensive skills. If they concentrated on just one side they would stand out even greater if that possible. The best players on this team are Weber and Suter and Rinne and the coaching is not utilizing them(W&S) to fullest of their potential.

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01-05-2011, 12:51 PM
  #43
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Did you ever think that Nash doesn't have good games against us because

....wait for it.....

of Suter?

Just a thought.

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01-05-2011, 01:04 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by jlsg View Post
Did you ever think that Nash doesn't have good games against us because

....wait for it.....

of Suter?

Just a thought.
Don't use logic around here.....

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01-05-2011, 05:18 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by jlsg View Post
Did you ever think that Nash doesn't have good games against us because

....wait for it.....

of Suter?

Just a thought.
Then who else ....or you can't think beyond what Trotz tells you

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01-05-2011, 05:38 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by jlsg View Post
Did you ever think that Nash doesn't have good games against us because

....wait for it.....

of Suter?

Just a thought.
Do you even know what a shutdown pair is? Funny they always said the reason Nash had bad games was because of Legwand was a great defense center. So your telling me different ....another question it's not can you name any pair of defenseman from other teams that are good

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01-05-2011, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by roseyc View Post
Do you even know what a shutdown pair is? Funny they always said the reason Nash had bad games was because of Legwand was a great defense center. So your telling me different ....another question it's not can you name any pair of defenseman from other teams that are good
I'm not even going to get into a pi$$ing match over this with you. I've been coaching and playing hockey for more then 30 years. Weber and Suter are one of the better pairs in the league, that cannot be argued. Suter played Nash 1x1 the entire night and shut him down. He was a non factor in the game. And yes there were games when Legwand had that duty and did it pretty well. But since he's just coming off an injury maybe the coaching staff felt that Suter would be the better choice for this game. Either way, Nash was ineffective. I really don't think it's coincidence that he plays bad against Nashville.

FWIW it's been over a year since I talked with Trotz. Last discussion was about team building, not defense pairings.

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01-05-2011, 07:58 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by jlsg View Post
I'm not even going to get into a pi$$ing match over this with you. I've been coaching and playing hockey for more then 30 years. Weber and Suter are one of the better pairs in the league, that cannot be argued. Suter played Nash 1x1 the entire night and shut him down. He was a non factor in the game. And yes there were games when Legwand had that duty and did it pretty well. But since he's just coming off an injury maybe the coaching staff felt that Suter would be the better choice for this game. Either way, Nash was ineffective. I really don't think it's coincidence that he plays bad against Nashville.

FWIW it's been over a year since I talked with Trotz. Last discussion was about team building, not defense pairings.
It can be argued ... just not with any logic, sense, or intellect. Never underestimate the ability of people to argue against the obvious.

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01-05-2011, 08:46 PM
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I mean to make a post in the Columbus thread about how well Suter played Nash, but I didn't... but this conversion seems fitting. Suter dominated Nash and frequently either stole pucks or did just enough to stop Nash from making a play. Suter is one of those guys that you don't notice unless you are really watching him closely and that is a good thing. Suter is one of the best defensemen in the league and quietly gets the job done every night. I think Weber and Suter compliment each other very well as Weber is able to physically dominate players while Suter is able to win many battles due to positioning and/or stick work.

And if you think Trotz is crazy for pairing them, I'd point to Babcock's usage of Weber and Scott Niedermayer for Team Canada, as Suter plays a similar style as Niedermayer.

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01-08-2011, 01:57 PM
  #50
roseyc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlsg View Post
I'm not even going to get into a pi$$ing match over this with you. I've been coaching and playing hockey for more then 30 years. Weber and Suter are one of the better pairs in the league, that cannot be argued. Suter played Nash 1x1 the entire night and shut him down. He was a non factor in the game. And yes there were games when Legwand had that duty and did it pretty well. But since he's just coming off an injury maybe the coaching staff felt that Suter would be the better choice for this game. Either way, Nash was ineffective. I really don't think it's coincidence that he plays bad against Nashville.

FWIW it's been over a year since I talked with Trotz. Last discussion was about team building, not defense pairings.
I'm sorry your taking this to a personal level it's just a discussion. The original post was that Preds should trade Suter and I suggested that the pairing of Weber and Suter would better benefit the team by splitting them up. As a coach you would know that the opposing coaches especially on the road would have the last change and that as far as matchups goes you would try to move your lines away from the top pairing as much as possible.By splitting them up you would prevent this possible scenario. I think Weber and Suter are good but in the last playoffs with Chicago they didn't shutdown the Chicago forwards. Even 101st was stating just that even though he probably doesn't remember or won't acknowledge it. Quenville in that playoff series split Kane and Toews up so that they wouldn't match up against Weber and Suter and Toews was matched up with Hamhuis and he ate him up. This is one of the discussion for such a move. All you really had to say was and I can help you out on this would be like Chi/Keith and Seabrook ....Philly/Pronger and Timonen Det/Rafalski and Lindstrom. Weber and Suter aren't in that class yet ....

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