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Post #470: Zherdev lower body injury, not likely to play January 6th

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01-04-2011, 07:18 PM
  #476
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Originally Posted by dingbathero View Post
1. Maybe his linemates don't play well with him
2. He is making the effort and I think that counts for something, esp with his skill.
3. As is Hartnell. PLUS he has 16 PIM's on the year... how many goals did other teams score while he was in the box, I wonder?

I'm not completely in LOVE with Z, but I can say that the past month and a half his level of effort has gone up considerably. Given that, he should be producing more, however, he has a great shooting percentage and doesn't get near the icetime as other players. Also, not having a 'set' line for most of the year can hinder players more than it helps.

To play devils advocate - when JVR was benched, he came back and played in the top 9 - he produced, after Z's he also produced. JVR has been on top lines longer, I think if Z was there you'd see his numbers jump ALOT higher than JVR's.
Z does not make a consistent effort on D... that's just the reality of the situation. You don't have to be good at it, but at least compete. Hartnell has his own problems, but compete level (on both sides of the puck) is something you never question with Hartnell.

JVR and Z's situations are entirely different, and not a fair comparison. JVR is a young developing player learning to use his tools in the NHL. Z is a skilled player with serious flaws in his approach to the game.

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01-04-2011, 07:30 PM
  #477
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Flyers can, today, add a annual cap hit of $3.667M. As long as the roster stays the same, that will actually go up some over time.

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01-04-2011, 07:41 PM
  #478
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Get over it, when Z isn't scoring he has a negative impact on the team. When he is scoring we will all overlook this problems, but that doesn't mean the problems don't exist. If Zherdev played better game to game it would be different, but he plays well for 1 game and then sucks for 3 or so games.

And Carter's penalties are never retalitory, they are usually tripping or slashing which comes from him being too aggressive on D with his stick. Opposite of Lazy
I don't get it.

First, he is scoring. He is actually one of the best in the league at scoring (per minute played of course). You don't really expect him to be a goal a game, do you?

Second, it appears (and I admit I haven't watched many games recently) that the whole Flyers team has sucked for the last 6 or seven games (excluding last 2 wins). The difference is -- first 3 games of this stretch (Pittsburg, Montreal, Rangers) the team actually sucked w/o Z and his linemates, who played great and carried Flyers over these three games. Then they sucked too. Everybody. But it's not like Z sucked and the rest of them played great. At least not from reports -- maybe I missed something.

Third, he drawes far more penalties than he takes. 1 min taken and 1.8 min drawn per 60 min. Probably the best on the team.

Remember when PP sucked? When Z got some PP time, 2 PP goals were scored in 2 consecutive games. First he created the JVR goal against Montreal, and then he scored himself against Rangers.

So, IMHO, all these benchings are either to school him or to send a message to the rest of the team. Not that the team is actually better w/o him. Not at all.

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01-04-2011, 08:54 PM
  #479
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Hey vera, we understand that you don't get criticism of Z.

Anyone else tired of fans of players (who aren't fans of the Flyers) showing up on the Flyers board to pimp said player? Every year we seem to get at least one.

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01-04-2011, 08:55 PM
  #480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Hey vera, we understand that you don't get criticism of Z.

Anyone else tired of fans of players (who aren't fans of the Flyers) showing up on the Flyers board to pimp said player? Every year we seem to get at least one.
Im starting to miss Wolfy




Thats why I dont know why you guys debate with vera. To him, Zherdev is infalible, and the rest of the team is wrong and he isnt. If he played 20 minutes a night, he would be a 50 goal scorer 100 point player. That isnt the case but to him it is.

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01-04-2011, 08:57 PM
  #481
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Im starting to miss Wolfy




Thats why I dont know why you guys debate with vera. To him, Zherdev is infalible, and the rest of the team is wrong and he isnt. If he played 20 minutes a night, he would be a 50 goal scorer 100 point player. That isnt the case but to him it is.
South Beach before that... oh good times.

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01-05-2011, 12:09 AM
  #482
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Hey vera, we understand that you don't get criticism of Z.
Anything I said above is not true?

I just love your debate method. You label me a fanboy, declare everything that I say nonsense, and this way you don't have to deal with concrete arguments.

Meanwhile I am very much aware of Z's shortcommings. It just happens that such complete nonsence as "taking too much stupid retaliation penalties", or "being useless when not scoring" is not one of them.

Good night.

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01-05-2011, 01:14 AM
  #483
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I wonder what Zherdev brings to the table when he isnt scoring goals then.

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01-05-2011, 05:51 AM
  #484
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
I wonder what Zherdev brings to the table when he isnt scoring goals then.
1) He draws penalties;

2) He makes excelent plays from time to time that just don't get converted;

3) He participated in at least 2 two on ones that resulted in goals but no assist for him (one with Carter and another with Richards).

etc.

The way you make it sound is like every time he touches the puck he gives it away.

And, BTW, he has the same +/- as Giroux does.

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01-05-2011, 05:53 AM
  #485
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Anyone else tired of fans of players (who aren't fans of the Flyers) showing up on the Flyers board to pimp said player? Every year we seem to get at least one.
Don't worry. You have enough your own Zherdev lovers.

They will show up when he scores a couple.

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01-05-2011, 08:04 AM
  #486
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The one thing that has pissed me off, is the amount of people that have bottled the chances he has given them. Z must of made about 10 plays this year that should of been converted. Carter has missed a few, JVR a few, Betts, and Carle.

Pretty much tap ins, or shots from the slot with a wide open net

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01-05-2011, 08:28 AM
  #487
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
The one thing that has pissed me off, is the amount of people that have bottled the chances he has given them. Z must of made about 10 plays this year that should of been converted. Carter has missed a few, JVR a few, Betts, and Carle.

Pretty much tap ins, or shots from the slot with a wide open net
Z is the next G?

Haha, let's not get ahead of ourselves. There haven't been that many blown chances by Z's linemates mostly because it's rare the puck ever goes in their general direction after Zherdev has it anyway. He either shoots or dangles around for a bit before losing it. I'll give his actual passing attempts about 1 or 2 attempts per game. Who knows how many more he'd have if he won some battles for the puck or god forbid, didn't try to dangle 3 people every shift.

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01-05-2011, 08:38 AM
  #488
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Nik Zherdev, who limped off the ice yesterday after just 20 minutes, told the Daily News that he is suffering from a groin strain and not a thigh bruise as was reported by other outlets. GM Paul Holmgren said Zherdev will not practice today and will be re-evaluated tomorrow, unlikely to play at New Jersey. Zherdev called himself "day-to-day."

Read more: http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...#ixzz1AAiL1hin
Watch sports videos you won't find anywhere else
Groin Strain

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01-05-2011, 07:21 PM
  #489
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Originally Posted by vera1964 View Post
Don't worry. You have enough your own Zherdev lovers.

They will show up when he scores a couple.
You missed the point.

There is a fundamental and important difference between a Flyer fan on here talking about Z, and a Ranger fan on here talking about Z.

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01-05-2011, 07:31 PM
  #490
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Originally Posted by vera1964 View Post
Anything I said above is not true?

I just love your debate method. You label me a fanboy, declare everything that I say nonsense, and this way you don't have to deal with concrete arguments.

Meanwhile I am very much aware of Z's shortcommings. It just happens that such complete nonsence as "taking too much stupid retaliation penalties", or "being useless when not scoring" is not one of them.

Good night.
I didn't debate you.

When you've established that the only reason you're here is to talk about Z because of your ***** for him, then you've given away any objectivity in the first place. You've consistently misapplied statistics, relied on small sample sizes, ignored historical precedent, etc., etc. to act as if it is some remarkable thing that Z isn't getting 20 minutes a night playing on this Flyers team.

He doesn't deserve those minutes. There are much much better all around hockey players on this team.

FACT: The majority of Z's shifts are above the 4th line. That means the majority of his shifts are taken with quality scoring players.

FACT: Z is 9th on the team in GFON/60 (a stat completely independent from the number of minutes he's played in total). Meaning that the scoring rate of the FLYERS -- note: that's the important one, because this is a TEAM sport -- isn't all that impressive with Z on the ice.

FACT: Z is 12th on the team in primary assists per 60. That's pathetic for an "offensive" player.

FACT: Z has yet to register a single secondary assist. That's pathetic for an "offensive" player.

FACT: Z is 9th on the team in +/- ON/60.

What you rely on is the fact that Z is first on the team in G/60... wonderful stat, but given his complete lack of production working with other players, that stat -- which is a purely individual statistic -- is completely and utterly nullified as far as bearing any importance to the team. Why? Because no one gives a flying *ck what your individual scoring rate is, they care what the TEAM's scoring rate is.

I expect you to address these concrete, empirical arguments that address the complete void of objective reasoning that you bring to bear in your fanboy pimping of a player that no longer plays for the team that you claim you are a fan of.

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01-05-2011, 09:12 PM
  #491
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I like Z, and if we had stevens he would fit right in but if he doesn't mesh with Laviolette, then I have no sympathy for him. Laviolette has done a great job here

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01-05-2011, 09:49 PM
  #492
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Originally Posted by vera1964 View Post
Don't worry. You have enough your own Zherdev lovers.

They will show up when he scores a couple.
z wasnt "our guy" so people are less forgiving of his development. theres a certain expectation of him coming in as a finished product despite him being a young player readjusting to the nhl. theres alot of talk about how hes in a good situation but very little actual time spent in situations which accentuate his abilities. what he needs now is some consistency from the coach. give him enough room to hang himself with instead of throwing roadblocks(carter at wing, putting him with shelly etc) in his way.

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01-05-2011, 11:32 PM
  #493
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z wasnt "our guy" so people are less forgiving of his development. theres a certain expectation of him coming in as a finished product despite him being a young player readjusting to the nhl. theres alot of talk about how hes in a good situation but very little actual time spent in situations which accentuate his abilities. what he needs now is some consistency from the coach. give him enough room to hang himself with instead of throwing roadblocks(carter at wing, putting him with shelly etc) in his way.
Zherdev is 26 y/o... aka, the prime offensive portion of his career.

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01-05-2011, 11:57 PM
  #494
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Zherdev is 26 y/o... aka, the prime offensive portion of his career.
Mike Knuble says hi

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01-06-2011, 12:01 AM
  #495
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Originally Posted by CerpinTaxt View Post
Mike Knuble says hi
Apples and oranges comparing Knuble and Zherdev...

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01-06-2011, 12:08 AM
  #496
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Originally Posted by CerpinTaxt View Post
Mike Knuble says hi
I bet if Mike Knuble had been given the chance to play with Joe Thornton, Peter Forsberg, Gagne, Richards, Ovechkin, etc. when he was 26, he would have put up numbers then, too.

Offensive talents peak (on average) quite early in players careers (mid 20s) and then degrade from that high point.

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01-06-2011, 12:26 AM
  #497
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I bet if Mike Knuble had been given the chance to play with Joe Thornton, Peter Forsberg, Gagne, Richards, Ovechkin, etc. when he was 26, he would have put up numbers then, too.

Offensive talents peak (on average) quite early in players careers (mid 20s) and then degrade from that high point.
Knuble did play with Thorton at age 27-28. Also played with Yzerman, Lidstrom, Gretzky, Allison amongst others.

In his break out year of 02-03, Joe Thorton was the leading scorer for the Bruins. So he was 30/31 that season, which I suppose you could say is in the mid/late of prime years (however you define those to be). He's scored 20 or more goals every year since then (not counting this year. So far only 9 in 39GP)

While I know you could show me a lot of stats on how "on average" players decline from a certain age, but that doesnt mean there arent outliers that deviate from the mean.

So its possible Zherdev could do a bit more developing. Maybe nothing so drastically significant, but still something.

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01-06-2011, 12:42 AM
  #498
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Originally Posted by vera1964 View Post
1) He draws penalties;

2) He makes excelent plays from time to time that just don't get converted;

3) He participated in at least 2 two on ones that resulted in goals but no assist for him (one with Carter and another with Richards).

etc.

The way you make it sound is like every time he touches the puck he gives it away.

And, BTW, he has the same +/- as Giroux does.
1) everyone can draw a penalty every now and then

2) too bad there isnt enough inbetween that time to time for my liking and many others around here who arent blinded by something.

3) Again I think we can say this with any of our forwards, with the exception of Shelley there are cases where this as happened.

I never once said that. I just dont think he offers much outside of the offense he brings. Some of the things we saw in Columbus and with the Rangers are showing here. The guy has all world talent, that is undeniable. Problem is he seems to give the effort when he feels like it. Has he been better in the last couple, 3 weeks? of course but that isnt saying much consitering what he was showing before that. I am just wondering since you are a Ranger fan do you defend Alexander Frolov the way you do Zherdev?. Zherdev and Frolov both have one thing in common, they have the knack to drive you crazy because you know they should be much better then what they have shown.
As far as plus minus goes, it is THE most overrated stat in hockey. Danny Briere is a + 15 and he is below average defensively(and I am being kind)


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01-06-2011, 02:08 AM
  #499
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Originally Posted by CerpinTaxt View Post
Knuble did play with Thorton at age 27-28. Also played with Yzerman, Lidstrom, Gretzky, Allison amongst others.

In his break out year of 02-03, Joe Thorton was the leading scorer for the Bruins. So he was 30/31 that season, which I suppose you could say is in the mid/late of prime years (however you define those to be). He's scored 20 or more goals every year since then (not counting this year. So far only 9 in 39GP)

While I know you could show me a lot of stats on how "on average" players decline from a certain age, but that doesnt mean there arent outliers that deviate from the mean.

So its possible Zherdev could do a bit more developing. Maybe nothing so drastically significant, but still something.
Sure, there are outliers. They're called outliers for a reason.

Knuble wasn't playing with top line talent before Thornton. He was a certified grinder until he got that chance... which is the problem with using him as a benchmark for a guy like Zherdev. Zherdev has been defined and used as a scorer from the moment he got into the league... Knuble was not.

And the 30/31 year... was the year Knuble finally got his chance.

In 2001-2 Knuble played 9.45 a game for Boston.
In 2002-3 Knuble played 17.24 a game for Boston.

The first season of his career he averaged more than 15 minutes a game.

Comparing Mike Knuble's career arc to Zherdev's is completely ahistorical. This is the first time in Zherdev's career in the NHL he isn't expected to be one of the main cogs in his team's offense.


Last edited by Jester: 01-06-2011 at 02:19 AM.
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01-06-2011, 03:29 AM
  #500
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Damnit... scratch Shelley and bring back Wellwood!

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