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Old
01-06-2011, 05:23 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
Are we talking about the same Corsi ratings that Malkin has outperformed Staal in for going on two years now? The same Corsi ratings that have Malkin ranked first on the Pens this season? Those Corsi ratings?
uhh wha?

http://www.kuklaskorner.com/index.ph...ference_maker/

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01-06-2011, 06:12 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by NewtonsApple View Post
This was the same guy that wrote an article explaining how the signing of Zbynek Michalek was going to be an albatross for the Penguins because he had poor Corsi numbers in Phoenix. I love advanced statistics and find them to be of great value, but the clown behind that blog doesn't do much of any real analysis, instead he sorts by Corsi ratings and makes bold claims about players that he probably never even watches.

Pittsburgh as a team under Therrien was poor from a territorial standpoint. They played a defensive minded game that had them frequently outshot and outchanced, and players like Crosby and Malkin had very mediocre Corsi ratings as a result. Under Bylsma those numbers have drastically improved for the entire team, which is to be expected given the puck possession game that the Penguins play. This season, Malkin is ranked 7th in the NHL in Corsi and first on the Pens, and he's done so without playing all that well for most of the year. I suppose that's the downside to mindlessly following Corsi charts.

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01-06-2011, 06:20 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
This was the same guy that wrote an article explaining how the signing of Zbynek Michalek was going to be an albatross for the Penguins because he had poor Corsi numbers in Phoenix. I love advanced statistics and find them to be of great value, but the clown behind that blog doesn't do much of any real analysis, instead he sorts by Corsi ratings and makes bold claims about players that he probably never even watches.

Pittsburgh as a team under Therrien was poor from a territorial standpoint. They played a defensive minded game that had them frequently outshot and outchanced, and players like Crosby and Malkin had very mediocre Corsi ratings as a result. Under Bylsma those numbers have drastically improved for the entire team, which is to be expected given the puck possession game that the Penguins play. This season, Malkin is ranked 7th in the NHL in Corsi and first on the Pens, and he's done so without playing all that well for most of the year. I suppose that's the downside to mindlessly following Corsi charts.

What about the Penguins Columnists? Just ignore them and hammer away at every little thing you can. Which i knew was inevitable, so i cited many sources and relevant points. Pick away at one blogger all you want, you still have official scouting reports, penguins columnists, heck even penguins fans to discredit.

Reading comprehension. Go back and read why i brought up Corsi rankings to begin with. One person said "Malkin was near the top of the league in takeaways, so obviously he was not weak defensively" which was in reference to his crazy 08/09 year. So i pointed out, that takeaways on a team with an aggressive forecheck take place in the offensive zone too, and that his CORSI rankings that year were 2nd worst in the entire league. It was in reference to the notion that because Malkin has high takeaways, that he is strong defensively. But sure, ignore all the columnists i linked to who say Malkin has played lazy, ignore the sdnation and hockey news official scouting report on malkin, ignore your own eyes when you watch Pens games and make entirely fallacious statements about me drawing conclusions primarily from Corsi rankings.

Carolina says no


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01-06-2011, 06:36 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by NewtonsApple View Post
But sure, ignore all the columnists i linked to who say Malkin has played lazy.
What about actual hockey writers who voted for Malkin as a Conn Smythe winner and Hart runner up in back to back seasons? I guess since they don't have a blog on suite101.com we should ignore their opinions.

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01-06-2011, 06:56 AM
  #105
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and the winner of the most times using "ad hominem" in a thread award goes to.......

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01-06-2011, 06:59 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
What about actual hockey writers who voted for Malkin as a Conn Smythe winner and Hart runner up in back to back seasons? I guess since they don't have a blog on suite101.com we should ignore their opinions.

I will be the first to admit that, in 08/09 especially, Malkin was on another level. Sure, he can't win a faceoff. Sure, he takes stupid penalties resulting from his lazy back check. Sure, he gives the puck away in his own zone WAY too many times, many of which lead to goals. But, when you play offence like he did those years, it compensates for all his weaknesses. Which i said earlier.

If Malkin is producing like he was back in 08/09, i dont care about his shortcomings. But he's not. He hasn't been for a year and a half. He's still a good player, no doubt, be he is nowhere even close to top 3. And you are asking me to take him with his faults, over a guy that is miles better defensively, and is producing more offensively? A guy that is the heart and soul of his franchise? A guy with no question marks about his work ethic? Yeah, not happening.

If Malkin regains form, ill eat my words. But i dont think we will ever see the 08/09 Geno again.

Edit: Again, suite 101 along with HF boards links were just to show fans perspectives. You still have links to penguins columnists, official scouting reports and yes, regular people. Though i find it amusing paradoxical that you discredit forum posters because are just fans, not a paid professional. Oblivious to the paradoxical nature that if its the fact hes just a fan that discredits him, how can you have credit to discredit them? Circular.


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01-06-2011, 07:00 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by NewtonsApple View Post
And you are asking me to take him with his faults, over a guy that is miles better defensively, and is producing more offensively? A guy that is the heart and soul of his franchise? A guy with no question marks about his work ethic? Yeah, not happening.
Nobody is asking you to take him though. In fact the consensus amongst Penguins fans is very much that you can't have him, rather than asking you to take him.

and even if this was made by a Pens fan, still nobody is asking you to take him because you aren't even a Canes fan.

Pens fans are more than happy to keep Malkin "with his faults". Canes fans want to keep Staal, nobody is calling Malkin a top three player. Any further reasons why this aimless crusade must continue from you?


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01-06-2011, 07:15 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewtonsApple View Post
IAgain, suite 101 along with HF boards links were just to show fans perspectives. You still have links to penguins columnists, official scouting reports and yes, regular people. Though i find it amusing paradoxical that you discredit a blogger because he is just a fan, not a paid professional. Oblivious to the paradoxical nature that if its the fact hes just a fan that discredits him, how can you have credit to discredit him? Circular.
1. Suite101 isn't a blog, they aren't "bloggers" and in fact you do get paid for writing on suite101.

2. The writer on Suite101 you linked to isn't a "he", shows how well you check your sources.

3. ad hominem.

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01-06-2011, 07:21 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Morozov View Post
1. Suite101 isn't a blog, they aren't "bloggers" and in fact you do get paid for writing on suite101.

2. The writer on Suite101 you linked to isn't a "he", shows how well you check your sources.

3. ad hominem.
i loled. Though that doesn't at all refute the point, if anything, it helps it.

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01-06-2011, 07:23 AM
  #110
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How does it help it exactly?

It's clear you have no idea of how Suite101 works, at least until you actually now go and research it before returning back to the thread to continue your crusade. Next time actually bother to read what you are referencing and then you may at least get the creators gender right

I ask again, Pens fans want to keep Malkin, Canes fans want to keep Staal, you are a fan of neither and nobody is telling you to go one way or the other, nobody is calling Malkin a top three player, so why do you continue to go on? You claimed it's because the supposed top three thing needs to come to an end, well evidently it has. It's the top 1 now, Crosby, then the rest.

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01-06-2011, 07:29 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewtonsApple View Post
Edit: Again, suite 101 along with HF boards links were just to show fans perspectives. You still have links to penguins columnists, official scouting reports and yes, regular people. Though i find it amusing paradoxical that you discredit forum posters because are just fans, not a paid professional. Oblivious to the paradoxical nature that if its the fact hes just a fan that discredits him, how can you have credit to discredit them? Circular.
I just find that linking to cherrypicked quotes from random people on the internet that agree with you that were found using the search terms "Malkin is lazy" as some kind of tangible evidence that it's true is kind of lame. But hey, that's just me.

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01-06-2011, 07:59 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
A combination of factors that Staal apparently has that Malkin doesn't, which you seem incapable of expressing or finding evidence for.

Direct quotes about a player from his teammates/peers are anything but conjecture. You said Staal is a better leader...what you failed to do is find anything at all to support that idea.
Typical HFB routine here, circular logic. You initially state it's conjecture about who is a better leader yet you cite Pens players quotes to support Malkin's leadership. So if I throw up quotes about Staal's leadership what does that prove? The point was about who is the better leader between the two but you act as if by me saying Staal it implies Malkin has zero leadership. Stop being such a sensitive homer and keep in mind I earlier rated Malkin the better offensive player while you view things with blinders on.

Plus I've already outlined some of the factors. He battles more than Malkin for the puck and he doesn't get off his game when played physically (and as a result take bad penalties). Plus he will play and has played through injuries more than Malkin. Certainly grit, toughness and a cool head under pressure count for something in terms of leadership, no? He also is THE guy among the forwards on Carolina and the focal point of every opponent vs. Malkin's second guy status. Rising to the occasion even when you are the primary marked man counts for something too. Sure, you'll say Malkin has stepped up on occasion but he doesn't do it or have to do it every night like Staal does.

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01-06-2011, 08:21 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
I just find that linking to cherrypicked quotes from random people on the internet that agree with you that were found using the search terms "Malkin is lazy" as some kind of tangible evidence that it's true is kind of lame. But hey, that's just me.
The fact that a Penguins columnist wrote that Pens fans were in an uproar over his lethargy should serve as some tangible evidence that there is some degree of truth in it.

Regardless, i provided all this stuff because "I see it myself" doesn't seem to suffice here. Especially on a forum where Malkin is still top 5.

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01-06-2011, 08:21 AM
  #114
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Why don't you guys just make out already?

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01-06-2011, 08:34 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Morozov View Post
How does it help it exactly?

It's clear you have no idea of how Suite101 works, at least until you actually now go and research it before returning back to the thread to continue your crusade. Next time actually bother to read what you are referencing and then you may at least get the creators gender right

I ask again, Pens fans want to keep Malkin, Canes fans want to keep Staal, you are a fan of neither and nobody is telling you to go one way or the other, nobody is calling Malkin a top three player, so why do you continue to go on? You claimed it's because the supposed top three thing needs to come to an end, well evidently it has. It's the top 1 now, Crosby, then the rest.
The "he" i referenced was the Corsi analyst criticizing Malkin. Well aware that the Penguins columnist was a women. In fact, i referenced her as a "her" before. So one would assume by your first sentence that suite101's creator is a woman? News to me.

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01-06-2011, 09:16 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Typical HFB routine here, circular logic. You initially state it's conjecture about who is a better leader yet you cite Pens players quotes to support Malkin's leadership. So if I throw up quotes about Staal's leadership what does that prove?
Listen Einstein, here's how it went down:

Quote:
Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Again, if Malkin and Staal are on the same team, you really think Malkin gets the C over Staal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
I have no idea. That'd be nothing but conjecture.
That means I have no idea if Malkin would get the "C" over Staal if they were on the same team. What it doesn't mean is that support from a player's teammates regarding his ability to lead aren't useful.

That was painfully clear from the start. Hopefully I don't need to re-explain much else for you here.

Quote:
Plus I've already outlined some of the factors. He battles more than Malkin for the puck
Nope.

Quote:
and he doesn't get off his game when played physically (and as a result take bad penalties).
Malkin can take bad penalties. But let's not go and take Boudreau's word as gospel - Malkin had 3 goals in the 2 games between the Caps and Pens over the course of 24/7.

Easier said than done.

Quote:
Plus he will play and has played through injuries more than Malkin.
Uh, what? Malkin's been playing through shoulder and knee injuries since the start of last year.

Quote:
He also is THE guy among the forwards on Carolina and the focal point of every opponent vs. Malkin's second guy status.
Newsflash: Staal would be second fiddle if he were playing with Crosby too.

Quote:
Rising to the occasion even when you are the primary marked man counts for something too. Sure, you'll say Malkin has stepped up on occasion but he doesn't do it or have to do it every night like Staal does.
Rising to the occasion? Malkin has outperformed Staal in every single season he's been in the league up until this one...and I'd be willing to bet that he'll end up outperforming him by the end of this year too.


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01-06-2011, 10:12 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by NewtonsApple View Post
The "he" i referenced was the Corsi analyst criticizing Malkin. Well aware that the Penguins columnist was a women. In fact, i referenced her as a "her" before. So one would assume by your first sentence that suite101's creator is a woman? News to me.
It's not the first time your "Corsi analyst" takes stuff out of context. Corisi ratings have many factors that need to be taken into the contest, but also some that must not be involved. Relationship between "zone time" and Corsi rating is one that is a great example. If you look at the whole picture, you'll understand that what he produced and calls "adjusted rating" is something that very much takes a "who is on the ice" factor in the calculation. Malkin's rating for that particular year was bad, but you have to take in consideration that he had to drag Peter Sykora (who also prominently negative rating is displayed on his list) and Ruslan Fedotenko on his ass almost whole season. Things like that need to be understood if you want to pull the card of something like advanced statiscics, what basically Corsi is.

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01-06-2011, 10:32 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by laufer72 View Post
It's not the first time your "Corsi analyst" takes stuff out of context. Corisi ratings have many factors that need to be taken into the contest, but also some that must not be involved. Relationship between "zone time" and Corsi rating is one that is a great example. If you look at the whole picture, you'll understand that what he produced and calls "adjusted rating" is something that very much takes a "who is on the ice" factor in the calculation. Malkin's rating for that particular year was bad, but you have to take in consideration that he had to drag Peter Sykora (who also prominently negative rating is displayed on his list) and Ruslan Fedotenko on his ass almost whole season. Things like that need to be understood if you want to pull the card of something like advanced statiscics, what basically Corsi is.

Hey man, i agree. In my mind Corsi is basically a more telling +/- stat. Neither of which are without fault. That being said, the way in which i used it i believe was fair. A response to Malkin's great defensive play based upon takeaways (which are a horribly deceptive defensive stat). It by no means gives the whole picture, but its not to be ignored either. I dont think it was out of line to use it in the context I did. Especially when coupled with official scouting reports on Malkin (renowned for a lazy back check which leads to bad penalties, bad giveaways in his own zone).

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01-06-2011, 10:32 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Listen Einstein, here's how it went down:

That means I have no idea if Malkin would get the "C" over Staal if they were on the same team. What it doesn't mean is that support from a player's teammates regarding his ability to lead aren't useful.

That was painfully clear from the start. Hopefully I don't need to re-explain much else for you here.

Nope.

Malkin can take bad penalties. But let's not go and take Boudreau's word as gospel - Malkin had 3 goals in the 2 games between the Caps and Pens over the course of 24/7.

Easier said than done.

Uh, what? Malkin's been playing through shoulder and knee injuries since the start of last year.

Newsflash: Staal would be second fiddle if he were playing with Crosby too.

Rising to the occasion? Malkin has outperformed Staal in every single season he's been in the league up until this one...and I'd be willing to bet that he'll end up outperforming him by the end of this year too.
Your typical spin-o-rama, eh? Support from Malkin's teammates have nothing to do with how he compares to Staal. Get it? They both can be good leaders but who is better is the question. Still with me?

Again, you have offered nothing to support Malkin as the better leader. Yet you distill everything down to an all-or-none scenario. Trying to counter my points by basically stating about Malkin, "yes he does" adds nothing to your point.

Regarding rising to the occasion, is Malkin THE guy opposing D's focus on every night? That's a resounding NO. Is Staal? A resounding YES. Do I need to draw a picture too? It's pretty simple. Really it is.

Do you really think Malkin is grittier than Staal? Come on and Staal has consistently played through injuries his entire career not just this year and also has the burden of carrying the team on his back. Not so with Malkin. Staal also kills penalties while Malkin does not.

Now or you going to continue to keep your blinders on are actually try to explain how Malkin is a better leader than Staal?

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01-06-2011, 10:37 AM
  #120
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IMO it is really quite straightforward that Malkin is not a major leadership figure for the Pens. I don't see why that's even being argued over.

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01-06-2011, 10:37 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Now or you going to continue to keep your blinders on are actually try to explain how Malkin is a better leader than Staal?
Has anyone stated this? I can't read, so I'm not sure. But has anyone in this thread said that Malkin is a better leader than Staal? Seems like something no one can quantify.

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01-06-2011, 10:38 AM
  #122
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IMO it is really quite straightforward that Malkin is not a major leadership figure for the Pens. I don't see why that's even being argued over.
by the fact that he wears an A?

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01-06-2011, 10:47 AM
  #123
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Hey man, i agree. In my mind Corsi is basically a more telling +/- stat. Neither of which are without fault. That being said, the way in which i used it i believe was fair. A response to Malkin's great defensive play based upon takeaways (which are a horribly deceptive defensive stat). It by no means gives the whole picture, but its not to be ignored either. I dont think it was out of line to use it in the context I did. Especially when coupled with official scouting reports on Malkin (renowned for a lazy back check which leads to bad penalties, bad giveaways in his own zone).
I have no idea where did you read those scouting reports, but I can point you to a book written by a Dave King (I hope you know who he is) called "King of Russia". In the same book, you'll find that King, who was Malkin's coach in Metallurg Magnitogorsk, has a polar opposite opinion on Malkin's play. As the matter of fact, his play is compared to one of Pavel Datsyuk.

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01-06-2011, 10:55 AM
  #124
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"It's been up and down. You're talking about a centerman, he's a guy that can't win draws worth a lick. I mean, he just puts his stick in there and it's going the other way. "-Bob Errey


Here is his official scouting report as per hockey news.

http://forecaster.thehockeynews.com/...layer.cgi?4686

"Struggles badly on face-offs. Isn't as dominant when he plays either wing position, since he is denied the puck more often along the wall. Takes bad penalties and is a little careless with the puck in the defensive zone."

These are considered his cons. Its no secret that many of these bad penalties result from a sluggish back check.


Edit: Here is a quote from a sports writer in Pitts

"I think we should just move him at the deadline and keep Staal, why? Staal plays a solid 2 way game and doesn't disappear when he can't score.

I mean if you had your pick...do you take the struggling superstar that takes bad penalties and can't play a solid 2-way game if he's not scoring or the 22yr old selke nominee that has scored 20 goals on the 3rd line in all but 1 season in the NHL playing with scrubs that is also great on the pk and a 2-way player.

I'd rather keep Staal and get 2 solid wingers, a draft pick and a prospect out of Malkin. "

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01-06-2011, 11:01 AM
  #125
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Has anyone stated this? I can't read, so I'm not sure. But has anyone in this thread said that Malkin is a better leader than Staal? Seems like something no one can quantify.
I stated Staal was a better leader and gave specifics as to why. The counter to that was the oh-so-typical HFB reply that tried to prove Malkin had some leadership qualities. Of course it's not an all-or-none question and Malkin can actually have quite a bit of leadership qualities and still not have more than Staal. To certain homer fans though, they can't make this simple distinction.

So I asked the question to see if he just wants to argue or whether he thinks Malkin is a better leader.

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