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Flyers waive Michael Leighton; cleared waivers, sent to Phantoms (AHL)

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01-06-2011, 09:41 AM
  #401
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Right, but I do think (especially with the goalie position) you have to worry about whether a guy really wants it. Coming to Philly (or another bigger market team) you gotta be ready for the attention and pressure. Winning some games and losing in the first round (Nashville) doesn't exactly go over well here...
Of course. Though we both know that those Nashville teams played horrid in front of him (especially in 2003) and even his less than stellar second playoff series wasn't exactly due to him giving up a ton of soft goals.

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01-06-2011, 09:48 AM
  #402
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tyring to win a cup is more important. He has plenty of time to get reps. I think florida will hold onto him and have arepeat jaybo situation. That imo would be priceless. I dont think flrofida will get the offers they thinkg they will get and end up not making a trade. The teasm that need a goalie are up against the cap,s alary needs to go their way and they may be reluctant to take it on. If the flyers make no move for a goalie and they dont win the cup this year, i really hope it is because of the goaltenders failing being the main reaason.
At some point you need to manage long-term goals with short-term goals. Saying "We want the Cup!" is not doing that. The quicker you start giving Bob reps and all that jazz, the quicker he gets to where you want him to be.

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01-06-2011, 09:57 AM
  #403
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Meszaros has put up spectacular play against lesser competition...

But you put him over Pronger and Timonen...

I really don't know what you're thinking.
Pronger's knee problem from the offseason, imo, has been fairly apparent all season. He has gotten beat wide on plays where last year he would have pivoted and used his stick to separate the puck carrier from the puck.

Timonen has played fantastic, but he has had a few off games here and there that have made me wonder if he is fatigued/injured himself at times.

Meszaros, to my knowledge, has not had a single clunker all season. Even games where we get blown out he manages to be an even. You could argue that this is because he is playing against lesser competition, but when I watch a game I don't see the 3rd pairing being shielded from an opponent's top line like last year.

That is what I am thinking.

PS. I am VERY excited for Pronger's return because I feel that this long break may have been good for his knee and we may begin seeing the '09-'10 Pronger again.

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01-06-2011, 10:02 AM
  #404
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Originally Posted by agrudez View Post
Pronger's knee problem from the offseason, imo, has been fairly apparent all season. He has gotten beat wide on plays where last year he would have pivoted and used his stick to separate the puck carrier from the puck.

Timonen has played fantastic, but he has had a few off games here and there that have made me wonder if he is fatigued/injured himself at times.

Meszaros, to my knowledge, has not had a single clunker all season. Even games where we get blown out he manages to be an even. You could argue that this is because he is playing against lesser competition, but when I watch a game I don't see the 3rd pairing being shielded from an opponent's top line like last year.

That is what I am thinking.

PS. I am VERY excited for Pronger's return because I feel that this long break may have been good for his knee and we may begin seeing the '09-'10 Pronger again.
They're not shielded like last year, because they're not really a 3rd pairing. That's a decent 2nd pairing on a normal team. They just have Pronger and Timonen leading pairs ahead of 'em, and you can't really compete with that. However, Meszaros, O'Donnell and Bartulis are all notably behind the rest of the D in QUALCOMP.

They have, however, allowed minutes to be much more evenly distributed than previously. The other thing to keep in mind, however, is that we've had a lot of blowout wins (particularly when the team got really hot in November), and that allows you to be far looser in who you send certain players out there against. When you're up by 3-4 goals in the third period, you care a lot less if Shelley is out there against Crosby (let alone the 3rd pairing D).

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01-06-2011, 10:02 AM
  #405
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Originally Posted by agrudez View Post
Meszaros, to my knowledge, has not had a single clunker all season. Even games where we get blown out he manages to be an even. You could argue that this is because he is playing against lesser competition, but when I watch a game I don't see the 3rd pairing being shielded from an opponent's top line like last year.
Agree about Pronger's knee.

However, before the injury the 3rd pairing was absolutely being shielded from stronger competition.

Only Shelley, Betts, and JVR have a lower even strength quality of competion than OD and Mes.

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01-06-2011, 10:03 AM
  #406
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
At some point you need to manage long-term goals with short-term goals. Saying "We want the Cup!" is not doing that. The quicker you start giving Bob reps and all that jazz, the quicker he gets to where you want him to be.
at some point correct, if they decide he isnt the answer this year, then that plan is on hold this year as far as getting him nhl reps. They dont have any long term goals, you know that by now. that wont change.

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01-06-2011, 10:03 AM
  #407
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
They're not shielded like last year, because they're not really a 3rd pairing. That's a decent 2nd pairing on a normal team. They just have Pronger and Timonen leading pairs ahead of 'em, and you can't really compete with that. However, Meszaros, O'Donnell and Bartulis are all notably behind the rest of the D in QUALCOMP.

They have, however, allowed minutes to be much more evenly distributed than previously. The other thing to keep in mind, however, is that we've had a lot of blowout wins (particularly when the team got really hot in November), and that allows you to be far looser in who you send certain players out there against. When you're up by 3-4 goals in the third period, you care a lot less if Shelley is out there against Crosby (let alone the 3rd pairing D).
**** you, dick. I was looking up those stats already. Don't steal my ****ing thunder, jackhole.

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01-06-2011, 10:56 AM
  #408
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
A trade for Vokoun or a high-priced goalie, the Flyers would probably make the other team take Bartulis and would just try to claim someone off waivers or something if their number is low enough.
How much lower can you get than Bartulis's number though?

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01-06-2011, 11:05 AM
  #409
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Originally Posted by agrudez View Post
Meszaros, to my knowledge, has not had a single clunker all season. Even games where we get blown out he manages to be an even. You could argue that this is because he is playing against lesser competition, but when I watch a game I don't see the 3rd pairing being shielded from an opponent's top line like last year.

That is what I am thinking.
Granted I've only seen a couple of full games this season, but from what I have seen, Meszaros is far from being better than Timonen and Pronger, regardless of their possible off-games. He's been good, yeah, but not *that* good. He doesn't make those awesome plays, and with some of the goals against he's been involved with, I could see Timonen and Pronger making a much better defensive play. That isn't to say he's not a very good defensman, as I'm very glad we added him to the roster, but I just don't see him as beating the top two, at least not yet. I'd like him to be able to be that guy, but just looking at it realistically, I don't think this is the case at the moment. In my opinion, right now he's just a player that plays defense the way you'd expect him to, the way you pay him to, making mistakes here and there, but in general very commendable.

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01-06-2011, 11:18 AM
  #410
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I've tried pretty much all of the permutations in my mind, but I can't come up with a trade deal that doesn't either underwhelm Florida or hurt the Flyers immensely. Carle 'n parts wouldn't seem to be enough, this franchise doesn't have the blue chippers to make it interesting, and the thought of dealing from the top 9 F's not named Zherdev gives me the shivers.

From a fantasy-hockey perspective, a blockbuster like Carter for Vokoun + FL's 1st would sure generate a lot of bandwidth around here. It would certainly be a bold move on Holmgren's part, but not one that I would particularly favour. It intrigues one part of my brain as it has the potential to be a short-term + long-term plus.

I'm resigning myself to carrying out the year with Bobby Boucher.

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01-06-2011, 11:22 AM
  #411
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Bob should get 1 of the games this week

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01-06-2011, 12:29 PM
  #412
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No, because Walker's cap hit comes back when he is healthy. That it what Holmgren did when Briere was out 2 years ago and led to us waiving Metro and Ossi, and trading Upshall
Walkers cap hit never wen't away. LTIR doesn't take guys off the books it simply allows you to replace them and the replacement player adds to the total salary you can pay this year (if that player takes you over the cap and assuming the replacement player is less than or equal to the player he is replacing). Since we are not at the upper limit having players on LTIR really means nothing.

IE. Since Svyret has been recalled tonight, he will count against the cap. If he was recalled as an LTIR replacement, his daily salary would be added to our upper limit.

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01-06-2011, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
IE. Since Svyret has been recalled tonight, he will count against the cap. If he was recalled as an LTIR replacement, his daily salary would be added to our upper limit.
Are players recalled with that disctintion being made?

I thought it was you are recalled. If you're cap hit takes the team over the limit, you are then utilizing LTIR, so you are a replacement. If you're cap hit, does not take you over the limit, then LTIR is not being utilized, so you're really not a replacement. Regardless, it doesn't effect how you're called up.

I just don't think the designation "LTIR replacement" actually holds any weight. Do you know?

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01-06-2011, 12:37 PM
  #414
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Granted I've only seen a couple of full games this season, but from what I have seen, Meszaros is far from being better than Timonen and Pronger, regardless of their possible off-games. He's been good, yeah, but not *that* good. He doesn't make those awesome plays, and with some of the goals against he's been involved with, I could see Timonen and Pronger making a much better defensive play. That isn't to say he's not a very good defensman, as I'm very glad we added him to the roster, but I just don't see him as beating the top two, at least not yet. I'd like him to be able to be that guy, but just looking at it realistically, I don't think this is the case at the moment. In my opinion, right now he's just a player that plays defense the way you'd expect him to, the way you pay him to, making mistakes here and there, but in general very commendable.
Clearly Pronger and Timonen are the better players, I am merely saying Mesz has had the best play of the d corps this season.

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01-06-2011, 12:40 PM
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Granted I've only seen a couple of full games this season, but from what I have seen, Meszaros is far from being better than Timonen and Pronger, regardless of their possible off-games. He's been good, yeah, but not *that* good. He doesn't make those awesome plays, and with some of the goals against he's been involved with, I could see Timonen and Pronger making a much better defensive play. That isn't to say he's not a very good defensman, as I'm very glad we added him to the roster, but I just don't see him as beating the top two, at least not yet. I'd like him to be able to be that guy, but just looking at it realistically, I don't think this is the case at the moment. In my opinion, right now he's just a player that plays defense the way you'd expect him to, the way you pay him to, making mistakes here and there, but in general very commendable.
Meszaros has played well, but his statistics are just silly stuff right now. O'Donnell's were out of control for a while, too; those have started to get back in line with actual level of play on the ice. Meszaros is great in his current role, because he doesn't get burned for his aggressiveness defensively when he's out there against weaker competition.

In a lot of ways, Meszaros is reminiscent of Coburn in how he plays (with a bit better offensive instincts -- and skill, though his shot has not translated to that many points). And, similar to Coburn, he really benefits from having a stable partner holding his defensive position next to him.

I also think that similar to Coburn, if you begin to expand his role those weaknesses will begin to get exposed with a bit more regularity. I think at times it's easy to forget just how good Pronger and Timonen are at what they do, and how hard D is at the NHL level.

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Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
I've tried pretty much all of the permutations in my mind, but I can't come up with a trade deal that doesn't either underwhelm Florida or hurt the Flyers immensely. Carle 'n parts wouldn't seem to be enough, this franchise doesn't have the blue chippers to make it interesting, and the thought of dealing from the top 9 F's not named Zherdev gives me the shivers.

From a fantasy-hockey perspective, a blockbuster like Carter for Vokoun + FL's 1st would sure generate a lot of bandwidth around here. It would certainly be a bold move on Holmgren's part, but not one that I would particularly favour. It intrigues one part of my brain as it has the potential to be a short-term + long-term plus.

I'm resigning myself to carrying out the year with Bobby Boucher.
There's no way you deal Carter for a 34 y/o goalie on an expiring contract -- even with the pick included -- in season. That's just too big a deal to pull in season for a team in the position the Flyers are. Those types of deals, if they do happen, come during the offseason.

And, yeah, we just don't have much to offer. You need to move salary (so one of Coburn or Carle)... and if it takes much more than that, don't think it's worth it.

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01-06-2011, 12:41 PM
  #416
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Are players recalled with that disctintion being made?

I thought it was you are recalled. If you're cap hit takes the team over the limit, you are then utilizing LTIR, so you are a replacement. If you're cap hit, does not take you over the limit, then LTIR is not being utilized, so you're really not a replacement. Regardless, it doesn't effect how you're called up.

I just don't think the designation "LTIR replacement" actually holds any weight. Do you know?
You only use the LTIR space if your roster cap space requires it. Otherwise, you just eat into the cap space. LTIR is only for spill over... doesn't protect existing cap space.

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01-06-2011, 12:50 PM
  #417
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You only use the LTIR space if your roster cap space requires it. Otherwise, you just eat into the cap space. LTIR is only for spill over... doesn't protect existing cap space.
Yea, that's my point. phillyfanatic was using the term LTIR replacement versus not a replacement. I was curious if there was literally a distinction, because I thought it was just as you stated. You either use the LTIR if you spill over, or you don't. It doesn't make a player a "replacement" or anything.

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01-06-2011, 12:53 PM
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Yea, that's my point. phillyfanatic was using the term LTIR replacement versus not a replacement. I was curious if there was literally a distinction, because I thought it was just as you stated. You either use the LTIR if you spill over, or you don't. It doesn't make a player a "replacement" or anything.
Yeah, it's actually specifically why there's no reason to LTIR a guy unless you need the cap flexibility.

However, I'm still confused why they didn't want to put Lappy on LTIR "because he'll never come off". I don't see the value add either way... isn't like they can waive or trade him in his situation.

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01-06-2011, 01:01 PM
  #419
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Are players recalled with that disctintion being made?

I thought it was you are recalled. If you're cap hit takes the team over the limit, you are then utilizing LTIR, so you are a replacement. If you're cap hit, does not take you over the limit, then LTIR is not being utilized, so you're really not a replacement. Regardless, it doesn't effect how you're called up.

I just don't think the designation "LTIR replacement" actually holds any weight. Do you know?
That is right. If the FLyers were at the upper limit right now Svyret would add to the total dollars we could spend this year (his daily salary). Since we are 400,000 under the cap - his daily salary will eat away at that number. So tomorrow, capgeek should read that we have 390,000 (as an example) of cap space. If we had 0 in cap space and 1 million in LTIR allowance then his salary would add to that 1 million.

We were in really good shape having three goalies and 8 D with players on LTIR as it was continually adding to our upper limit (we are currently at 61 million versus most teams at 59.4 million). So when the players come back and Leighton, Walker waived and sent down then you have those numbers off the books with noboby replacing them (since they were extra bodies) + you have the LTIR allowance that accrued. It was good while Leighton was still on the books, now that he is in the minors (which was the right move due to the three goalie problem is was causing) we are now chewing away at the extra money Leighton provided to get a new player.

If Leighton was waived at the deadline, that 400,000 of cap space would have been there for us to use, now.....we are eating it away with guys replacing LTIR players.

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01-06-2011, 01:04 PM
  #420
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...LTIR doesn't "continually add to our upper limit" it just is. LTIR is calculated daily. There is no yesterday, and no tomorrow with it. The moment a player comes off LTIR it's as if nothing happened (from a cap perspective).

And, no, operating over the cap using LTIR space isn't being in "really good shape." There's a reason Holmgren was publicly unhappy with putting Lappy on LTIR.

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01-06-2011, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
That is right. If the FLyers were at the upper limit right now Svyret would add to the total dollars we could spend this year (his daily salary). Since we are 400,000 under the cap - his daily salary will eat away at that number. So tomorrow, capgeek should read that we have 390,000 (as an example) of cap space. If we had 0 in cap space and 1 million in LTIR allowance then his salary would add to that 1 million.

We were in really good shape having three goalies and 8 D with players on LTIR as it was continually adding to our upper limit (we are currently at 61 million versus most teams at 59.4 million). So when the players come back and Leighton, Walker waived and sent down then you have those numbers off the books with noboby replacing them (since they were extra bodies) + you have the LTIR allowance that accrued. It was good while Leighton was still on the books, now that he is in the minors (which was the right move due to the three goalie problem is was causing) we are now chewing away at the extra money Leighton provided to get a new player.

If Leighton was waived at the deadline, that 400,000 of cap space would have been there for us to use, now.....we are eating it away with guys replacing LTIR players.
Yea you're mistaken.

To put it simply, if you are using LTIR, you are NOT "in really good shape".

If you are using LTIR at all, that means you aren't banking ANY daily cap savings. Whereas if you are UNDER the Upper Limit (AKA not using LTIR at all), you ARE banking daily cap savings.

Banking daily cap savings > not banking daily cap savings.

Long story short: LTIR = BAD cap situation

Edit: It might be more accurate to say LTIR = no cap flexibility (so some might say bad).


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01-06-2011, 01:28 PM
  #422
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Yea you're mistaken.

To put it simply, if you are using LTIR, you are NOT "in really good shape".

If you are using LTIR at all, that means you aren't banking ANY daily cap savings. Whereas if you are UNDER the Upper Limit (AKA not using LTIR at all), you ARE banking daily cap savings.

Banking daily cap savings > not banking daily cap savings.

Long story short: LTIR = BAD cap situation

Edit: It might be more accurate to say LTIR = no cap flexibility (so some might say bad).

Your right - we were not in really good shape. But, since we have guys on LTIR, the only way you take advantage of that is if you are at the daily limit. That was my point (If not Laps might as well retire). Since Leighton was putting us at the limit, salaries were being added to our upper limit. Since we are now under the limit, we are not getting any LTIR relief.

My point was - we had 3 goalies (unnecessary) and 8 D (unnecessary) and 2 guys on LTIR meaning two salaries adding to our LTIR relief. Now we are under and your right, that is good - but the LTIR cushion does not go up any longer. When Svyret comes up tonight our daily limit will be at the cap so Svyret will chew away at the cap instead of add to the upper limit. If we don't call anyone up, then the daily under will continue to add up. Either way, right now what is important is to get Walker off LTIR and put him in the minors.

NOTE: I believe the salaries added to our relief outweigh the daily limit we are now accumulating with Leighton in the minors. Since we were so tight to the cap having as an example Nodl, Bart and Bob salaries adding to our upper limit was probably more than the daily limit of Leighton off the books.

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01-06-2011, 01:31 PM
  #423
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Your right - we were not in really good shape. But, since we have guys on LTIR, the only way you take advantage of that is if you are at the daily limit. That was my point (If not Laps might as well retire). Since Leighton was putting us at the limit, salaries were being added to our upper limit. Since we are now under the limit, we are not getting any LTIR relief.

My point was - we had 3 goalies (unnecessary) and 8 D (unnecessary) and 2 guys on LTIR meaning two salaries adding to our LTIR relief. Now we are under and your right, that is good - but the LTIR cushion does not go up any longer. When Svyret comes up tonight our daily limit will be at the cap so Svyret will chew away at the cap instead of add to the upper limit. If we don't call anyone up, then the daily under will continue to add up. Either way, right now what is important is to get Walker off LTIR and put him in the minors.

NOTE: I believe the salaries added to our relief outweigh the daily limit we are now accumulating with Leighton in the minors. Since we were so tight to the cap having as an example Nodl, Bart and Bob salaries adding to our upper limit was probably more than the daily limit of Leighton off the books.
But we aren't over the upper limit, so we aren't having anything added to it (allowing us to exceed it). Unless of course Syvret put us over, I'm not sure. In which case, we'd probably be using a tiny portion of the LTIR allowance.

Regardless, the fact of the matter is. If you can be TRULY under the cap (meaning not using LTIR at all), do it. Because that's good. Currently, we are. Walker should be sent away so we can be even further under it.

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01-06-2011, 01:50 PM
  #424
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But we aren't over the upper limit, so we aren't having anything added to it (allowing us to exceed it). Unless of course Syvret put us over, I'm not sure. In which case, we'd probably be using a tiny portion of the LTIR allowance.

Regardless, the fact of the matter is. If you can be TRULY under the cap (meaning not using LTIR at all), do it. Because that's good. Currently, we are. Walker should be sent away so we can be even further under it.
I agree. We "were" over the upper limit when Leighton was on the books. Now we are under and Svyret, Bart and others are part of the daily cap number. So for those that think Laps is helping us by being on LTIR, he is not. Not any more. And since we are now under - we need to get Walker back and down to the AHL ASAP.

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01-06-2011, 01:58 PM
  #425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
I agree. We "were" over the upper limit when Leighton was on the books. Now we are under and Svyret, Bart and others are part of the daily cap number. So for those that think Laps is helping us by being on LTIR, he is not. Not any more. And since we are now under - we need to get Walker back and down to the AHL ASAP.
Or better yet, traded.

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