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Old
01-06-2011, 10:54 AM
  #251
Guerzy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurricane Anton View Post
If you expected a Rookie to look better than he has, then your expectations were unreasonable... White has been mostly pretty damn good since he's been here... Joni is the poster child of love here, and Gleason has been up and down, but he's loved too... Harrison has been better than anyone thought... Only Corvo has been horrible...
I think that's a relatively fair point of view, Hurricane Anton.

Pitkanen has been Pitkanen, Gleason's been solid but still needs to find that game-to-game rhythm, White has been pretty good for us (minus much offense) but all-around I think he has it in him to be a step or two better, McBain, who perhaps had some jitters at the beginning of the season has since become relatively calm back there and in my opinion is rounding our nicely defensively (which was a bit of a question mark for him, so it's nice to steady development there), Harrison has been better than expected, Corvo's been not too good.

As I just touched on in another thread, I think if we could get rid of Corvo and bring in a more steady, big, physical guy who can chip in offensively a touch, but it's not a must, would solidify things. I think Pitkanen, White and McBain can carry the load offensively as I think they've all got it in them to do so. While Gleason, Harrison and a guy like Beauchemin/Kubina could help defensively/physically/logging minutes while also chipping in a touch offensively.

I think Corvo is part of the problem here defensively. While I also understand it and be argued guys like White and Gleason could be a step or two better consistently speaking, I think they've got it in them to find that part of their game so in the grand scheme of things i'm not too worried there.

I think when Joe Corvo is averaging the 14th highest total icetime of all defenceman in the league, and ranks 11th in average icetime per game, there's cause for concern.


Last edited by Guerzy: 01-06-2011 at 11:07 AM.
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01-06-2011, 11:04 AM
  #252
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If we're rating the defensemen by expectations, and you are rating Corvo poorly, then your expectations were completely out of whack. Corvo has been exactly as he's been since he arrived (save a couple of stinkers here and there, and a couple of awesome games against Ottawa).

If it's simply about their play, without consideration to anything else (experience, role, injuries, whatever), then I'm not buying that McBain has played better than Corvo. *Most certainly* not to the extent of difference between adjectives like "horrible" and "GREAT". You're off your rocker if you believe that.

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01-06-2011, 11:09 AM
  #253
tarheelhockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurricane Anton View Post
If you expected a Rookie to look better than he has, then your expectations were unreasonable...
Unreasonable expectations are the theme of the summer. Looking through old threads, the common prediction was that he would be at or near 40 points. Through 39 games, he has 1-11-12.

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01-06-2011, 11:19 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by geehAAB View Post
If we're rating the defensemen by expectations, and you are rating Corvo poorly, then your expectations were completely out of whack. Corvo has been exactly as he's been since he arrived (save a couple of stinkers here and there, and a couple of awesome games against Ottawa).

If it's simply about their play, without consideration to anything else (experience, role, injuries, whatever), then I'm not buying that McBain has played better than Corvo. *Most certainly* not to the extent of difference between adjectives like "horrible" and "GREAT". You're off your rocker if you believe that.
I think what we're seeing from Corvo this year to date is some of the, if not the, worst hockey he's played since we acquired him. I'm a guy who's liked Corvo since he arrived, I like his mobility, I like his quick feet in our zone, etc. I've always defended the guy and especially did so at his current contract. He's no ace but generally speaking since we acquired him he's been serviceable for us in the top 4 role. But I do believe this is the poorest we've seen from him since his days began in Carolina.

I think Joe Corvo has been a pretty relaible and relatively solid defender for us since we got him. He is what he is and you've got to keep expectations in check. He's always got his jittery moments and blurts every now and again, as many upon many defenceman do, but I think he's been pretty good especially for the icetime and role he's played since we got him, which in my opinion is too much. This year, to date however, in my opinion has been different.

I also think if we're going to talk about their play without consideration to role, experience, injuries, etc.. I can honestly say I believe McBain has played better than Corvo. For me personally as a fan watching, I feel more comfortable with McBain on the ice than I do Corvo at this point in time. While I don't believe the difference in the two has been "horrible" compared to "great", I think there has been a difference, for me anyway.

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01-06-2011, 11:32 AM
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Unreasonable expectations are the theme of the summer. Looking through old threads, the common prediction was that he would be at or near 40 points. Through 39 games, he has 1-11-12.
Offensively, yes, based on his 14 game stint I expected more. But, overall when looking at the big picture I am very happy with where he's at. I think his at one time 'questionable defensive game' and the uncertainty of how it would translate or smooth out in the NHL over time has taken a solid step in the right direction to date. I'm not worried about his offense, I am confident it is there and we will one day see it again in the mold of a consistant 30-40 points. He's on pace for 25 points right now and combined with his solid defensive play, I would consider that a very solid rookie season for Jamie McBain. He's also only registered 42 shots in 39 games, barely shooting the puck (Tim Gleason has 41 shots).

However, I am very pleased with his strides defensively at the expense of offense. I would bet he's been told to "first and foremost take care of your own end, we know you've got offensive tools, but we'd just like you to be a serviceable bottom pairing guy for us at this point in time. Just keep things easy, simple, consistant and steady." I think to date the role he's been put in is perfect. He's played bottom pairing most all season with Harrison, logging an average of 18:25 per game (15:04 in even strength minutes per game). I think his +/- speaks well of his defensive game too at a +5. Many expected if he were to play with Harrison that it would drag him down and his +/- would be a steady indication of that. Based on Harrison's solid play to date, and McBain's aswell, they've served as a very serviceable bottom pairing.

McBain certainly in my opinion isn't focusing on the offensive side of things to date as much as he did in his 14 game stint last season. His shots and points are an indication of that, I believe. I think he's got the offensive tools, but we're seeing him grasp the defensive side of things, which for a rookie defenceman is great in my opinion especially when you see solid strides being taken defensively.

I really like where McBain is at half way through his rookie season.


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01-06-2011, 11:32 AM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geehAAB View Post
If we're rating the defensemen by expectations, and you are rating Corvo poorly, then your expectations were completely out of whack. Corvo has been exactly as he's been since he arrived (save a couple of stinkers here and there, and a couple of awesome games against Ottawa).

If it's simply about their play, without consideration to anything else (experience, role, injuries, whatever), then I'm not buying that McBain has played better than Corvo. *Most certainly* not to the extent of difference between adjectives like "horrible" and "GREAT". You're off your rocker if you believe that.
You are ridiculous... McBain has been immeasurably better defensively than Corvo since about game 10... Like night and day and if you don't see that, then you're off your rocker

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01-06-2011, 11:37 AM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Unreasonable expectations are the theme of the summer. Looking through old threads, the common prediction was that he would be at or near 40 points. Through 39 games, he has 1-11-12.
With Corvo and Joni on the roster, my guess is the staff tasked him with being better defensively since his offense hasn't been in question... Last year he spent time on top pairing because if injuries and was playing large chucks of minutes... He's now playing bottom pairing minutes most night and tasked to play well in our end... He has FAR exceeded my expectations defensively and not met my offensive expectations... But, if I had to choose how his season would go, I'd much rather him excel defensively than offensively... And he's still on pace for near 28-30 points as a rookie bottom pairing blueliner...

As far as White, I think he is allowing Joni to wander more and play Joni's game, so Ian is not worrying about the offense...

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01-06-2011, 11:41 AM
  #258
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I'm not bashing McBain, he's doing fine for a rookie. I was just pointing out that we had inflated expectations going into the season. He was on HF's Calder Watch, if that is any indication.

That comment was in the context of whether the overall D group has been better or worse than expected. McBain has been solid but not GREAT in relation to what we expected.

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01-06-2011, 11:50 AM
  #259
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Also, many expected John Carlson and PK Subban to be better than they've been thus far, some may say the same for McBain (offensively speaking) aswell.

Carlson: 41GP - 4G - 13A -17 Pts - (+11) - 68 shots - 17:39 Ave Even Strength per game - 22:05 Avg total icetime per game.

Subban: 35GP - 3G - 9A - 12 Pts - (-3) - 91 shots - 15:37 Avg Even Strength per game - 20:25 Avg total icetime per game.

McBain: 39GP - 1G - 11A - 12 Pts - (+5) - 42 shots - 15:04 Ave Even Strength per game - 18:25 Avg total icetime per game.

As a measuring stick, if you will, Carlson and Subban were 2 guys McBain was neck and neck with by many heading into the season and all 3 were looked at as potential Calder candidates for defenceman. There isn't a big difference between the 3 in the grand scheme of things at this point in time, in my opinion, though I think many would agree Subban as a whole has been a touch disappointing in some areas. I personally like where McBain is at.

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01-06-2011, 04:58 PM
  #260
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I didn't realize how very comparable Subban's and McBain's stat lines were. The season is still young but if I had to pick a player based on those stats alone with no names or dates or whatever, I'd take McBain every time.

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01-06-2011, 05:01 PM
  #261
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Chuck Kaiton just told 99.9 that "Joe Corvo played a very strong game".

Are you calling Chuck Kaiton a liar?

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01-06-2011, 05:16 PM
  #262
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I can't believe the statements I read in the paper this morning. Maurice, I can understand being completely wrong about being happy with the way the team played last night. But the players being happy about it?

Honestly, there had to be another game on. Because, really, with the exception of Ward and White, and some of the rookies in spurts, there wasn't any "effort" to be happy about last night.

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01-06-2011, 05:26 PM
  #263
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From a system view, the play of last night was almost like zone defense, where unless the puck came into the players "zone", they would cover the passing lanes, or else just watch the play.

The problem being, the Rangers had two or even three fore checkers often battling with two and often one Hurricanes player.

Same in the offensive zone, we almost never established any offensive presence because we would just chase the puck, and the two or three backcheckers would just outplay the lone Hurricanes fore checker while other guys just watched.

I really don't get it, everyone, from Tripp and John to Mo to the players to CanesCountry to the Rangers GDT is under the impression that we played a great game with effort.

Maybe "we" is the new nickname for Wardo.

EDIT: If zone defense is used incorrectly here, please forgive my lack of football knowledge.

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01-06-2011, 06:13 PM
  #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurricane Anton View Post
The D is actually better than our non Rookieish Forwards and Staal... I don't know how you haven't seen the improvement... Gleason is up and down (not a good thing) and Corvo is ****ing terrible... But McBain is playing GREAT for a rookie, Harrison has drastically improved since the preseason, etc... If our Forwards had a lick of defensive responsibility and could tie up the neutral zone, we'd see 5 less shots a game and Cam's GAA would be dramatically lower...

Cam has been great about no softies this year though, until recently... This is 4 straight games with a softy and counting and we are 1-1-2 in those games
ive never said anything about any individual player and his performance this year. ive stayed out of you guys bickering game to game...well period to period. as a whole coming in they didnt look impressive on paper, ive seen little to surprise me so far.

mcbain has been exactly what i thought he would be. a rookie. i wasnt on the 40 pt bandwagon, i didnt even assume hed play the whole season here. i was one of those who thought harrison made a fine 6/7 guys and thought his price was a bargain as such, we always try to keep an extra vet around for depth a la wallin. i disagree corvo has been anything other than what he has been throughout his time here. he is jittery and nervous by nature. he is a good part of a solid d group but he isnt a leader and take the heat of carrying much on his own. i cant stand pitts. i think he is generally cowardly, an only goes with the play he wants instead of whats in front of him, and the play he wants generally requires a finn thinking the way he does. i think its great he eats minutes, and is generally impossible to beat one on one. he is a legit high end guy, but we need the guy in his position and pay to be a true leader, even if it means a bit less offensive skill. i personally hope he is gone.

our forwards not helping is absolutely true, and thats the nature of this team always it seems. its why we need better d to start. its why i think we could use a gritty vet amongst the forwards like langs. i think the d is about what it was advertised to be going in, with some improvement by subtracting babs and adding white. a legit good trade, and i hope white stays. this just isnt a d core that goes anywhere in the play offs. not enough assertiveness, and our best leader back there in gleason doesnt skate well enough to make more of an impact. i think we will re sign pitts just because jr wont be able to find anyone to replace his minutes in our price range, which means unless pitts aggressively says now he wont stay in the summer we will likely lose him for nothing because as long as we are close jr probably wont sell him off. then he wil likely just go to the highest bidder, undoubtedly more than what we will pay. his stats and minutes make him well priced, though ive said before i still dont want him.

ps. i thought we had a good game. we got scrambly in our end, but we always do as its our trademark. ward stood on his head. we had plenty of chances but henrik is a stud. it was a classic goalie stand off. i watch the other teams broadcast basiclly every game. i think you guys would enjoy it if you had the chance. you see everything in a less biased light, and you see what the league thinks our strengths and weaknesses are. everyone thinks ward/staal/kids are awesome. everyone thinks we have weak d who can be run all night, and that we will cough up pucks if pressured. everyone thinks we are small and quick up front with no physical presence, but with an ability to turn a bad play into a quick offensive chance. they all think we go as far as staal takes us. rangers broadcast repeatedly featured all the saves from both sides, and henrik's hi lights were far more frequent with crazier saves than wards. we had our chances, and we got beat by a top goalie. rangers guys were orgazzing over both goalies all night.


Last edited by bleedgreen: 01-06-2011 at 06:33 PM.
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01-06-2011, 06:31 PM
  #265
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Bleedgreen,

I'm not saying I disagree with your thoughts about Joni, because I see your point completely and in some ways I tend to agree. However, I would be interested in knowing how you would replace him or who you think might be available to take his place.

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01-06-2011, 06:41 PM
  #266
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oh i dont and that is the problem. if the isles are selling i would prefer streit if he comes back. he is far more assertive, runs the pp better, is a better leader, plays more physical for a similar price. he is as under rated as they come. quicker in his own end as well. size only matters if you use it, and pitts doesnt so to me it wouldnt matter that streit is smaller. i would take him as a replacement to pitt in a heartbeat. past that, i dont know who could replace him at a fair price. thats wy i think jr will make the effort to keep him, just saying i wouldnt shed a tear on his departure. i think we are doing just fine without him, to be honest. joe cant take the heat, but if we added a couple of white to gleason level guys we could be fine. defense by committee won us the cup, and i dont know if we will ever get a true number one here.

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01-06-2011, 07:28 PM
  #267
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I agree with some of your points about Pitkanen playing how he wants to, but I think we are screwed if we lose him. The fact that we finally ran up against a decent fore-checking team really exposed our inability to get the puck out of our own zone without our odd-ball Finn running the show. If he is not back in time for our back to back against the Bruins, we are even more screwed.

A couple of weeks ago, someone made a comment something to the point that if the rest of our team could read Pitkanen's mind, we would be the best team in the league. I seriously believe he has some of the best ice-vision in the league. The problem is that most of the time nobody else can figure out what the hell he is trying to do.

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01-06-2011, 07:48 PM
  #268
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that may be true on some level, but like im saying it doesnt help the canes any. send him to the wings or some team that can read his mind. we never will so it doesnt do anything for us. i think he uses his vision too much, if that makes sense. he keeps looking for the third layer in a play when the best play is in the first layer. he doesnt like that and regroups and then there is no play beause everyone has to adjust. just take the easy play sometimes, its usually the right one. looking for that elusive third layer every time isnt smart, even if your gifted enough to see it - if that makes sense. being smart is knowing when to look deeper and when not to.

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