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Old
01-06-2011, 04:03 PM
  #151
Morozov
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anton 2nd Pick View Post
Can't believe that this thread has continued on when everyone agreed that the OP was terrible.
because the whole top three thing must be put to a stop apparently. This guy doesn't even know why he's arguing.

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01-06-2011, 04:42 PM
  #152
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I just want to know if the Pittsburgh columnist that keeps getting quoted is Rob Rossi. You know, so I know to immediately discredit that whole portion of that argument.

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01-06-2011, 06:38 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Your typical spin-o-rama, eh? Support from Malkin's teammates have nothing to do with how he compares to Staal. Get it? They both can be good leaders but who is better is the question. Still with me?
Better get checked for Alzheimer's, because you have a habit of completely forgetting how arguments progress. You said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Playing a leading role on the ice isn't the same as leadership that leads to a C.
I responded with quotes from teammates about how what Malkin did on the ice is exactly what made him a leader. It wasn't at all used as a mark in his favour over Staal, it was used to define what actual NHL players think of leadership - and how Malkin qualified.

Quote:
Regarding rising to the occasion, is Malkin THE guy opposing D's focus on every night? That's a resounding NO. Is Staal? A resounding YES. Do I need to draw a picture too? It's pretty simple. Really it is.
Whenever Crosby's been out, Malkin has been spectacular. He is the main reason the Pens stayed in playoff contention in '08.

He can't do anything about being on the same team as the best player in the world - again, Staal would be in the same position if he were in Malkin's shoes.

Quote:
Do you really think Malkin is grittier than Staal? Come on and Staal has consistently played through injuries his entire career not just this year and also has the burden of carrying the team on his back.
I don't have a Grit-o-Meter. He's been playing injured for a year-and-a-half.

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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Listen, you'll find good quotes about both guys from teammates, it really means little. When Staal was named C last year, he took the Canes on a torrid run, something like 23-9, after a miserable start by rallying his teammates and most of that was while Ward was out. Add that to what I already outlined and Malkin doesn't stack up.
What are you, new? Malkin did exactly the same thing when Crosby went down in '08.

Quote:
Now or you going to continue to keep your blinders on are actually try to explain how Malkin is a better leader than Staal?
Head-to-head, Conference Finals '09. Malkin led his team to the Stanley Cup Finals with a dominating performance against the Staal-led Hurricanes. 9 points in 4 games to Staal's 2.

It doesn't get much more definitive than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewtonsApple View Post
Edit: Here is a quote from a sports writer in Pitts

"I think we should just move him at the deadline and keep Staal, why? Staal plays a solid 2 way game and doesn't disappear when he can't score.
Believe it or not, even sportswriters can be idiots.

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01-06-2011, 08:51 PM
  #154
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I'm laughing at all the Pens fans who want to continue to argue that Malkin puts up better numbers than Staal, but no one has said he doesn't.

As been said, Rutherford would much rather have Eric Staal be the face of his franchise over Evgeni Malkin, especially since Rutherford isn't to big on Russians to begin with.

I'm not sure why Pens fans are getting their panties in a wad because another player just might be better to have to market. It's not a big deal if Geno doesn't have the marketability he needs to help grow the sport in a smaller market. Not every player can have those tangibles. It's ok to admit it. I can admit that Staal isn't a better offensive player than Geno and I can admit that he likely won't ever get 100 points again.

However if i'm an owner/gm of a team and I need a franchise player i'm taking Staal.

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01-06-2011, 09:06 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by caniac247 View Post
I'm laughing at all the Pens fans who want to continue to argue that Malkin puts up better numbers than Staal, but no one has said he doesn't.

As been said, Rutherford would much rather have Eric Staal be the face of his franchise over Evgeni Malkin, especially since Rutherford isn't to big on Russians to begin with.

I'm not sure why Pens fans are getting their panties in a wad because another player just might be better to have to market. It's not a big deal if Geno doesn't have the marketability he needs to help grow the sport in a smaller market. Not every player can have those tangibles. It's ok to admit it. I can admit that Staal isn't a better offensive player than Geno and I can admit that he likely won't ever get 100 points again.

However if i'm an owner/gm of a team and I need a franchise player i'm taking Staal.
The main argument has nothing to do with who's more marketable, or who would be a preferable "face of the franchise".

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01-06-2011, 09:27 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
The main argument has nothing to do with who's more marketable, or who would be a preferable "face of the franchise".
Yeah, it really is. In terms of who's a better player, it's clearly Malkin. But the Canes don't do this because Staal's the face of the franchise. Replacing Malkin with Staal is a step backward in that department.

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01-06-2011, 09:31 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Anton Bomb View Post
Yeah, it really is. In terms of who's a better player, it's clearly Malkin. But the Canes don't do this because Staal's the face of the franchise. Replacing Malkin with Staal is a step backward in that department.
That's perfectly fine. The silly part is when people try to justify Staal being more valuable than Malkin on account of vague "leadership" advantages.

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01-06-2011, 10:15 PM
  #158
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Hells no.

The guy plays second line minutes with crap line mates, has been misused on the power play, and is streaky on the score sheet. Keeping that in mind:

Staal
06-07: 82 30 40 70
07-08: 82 38 44 82
08-09: 82 40 35 75
09-10: 70 29 41 70
10-11: 39 19 20 39

Malkin
06-07: 78 33 52 85
07-08: 82 47 59 106
08-09: 82 35 78 113
09-10: 67 28 49 77
10-11: 36 15 19 34

Malkin has cracked the 100 point season twice. On the other hand, Staal's offensive potential does not seem like it will be as high as Malkin's. The only thing that Staal impresses me with is the intangibles. He's a strong player, but not in the same class as Malkin.

If Malkin is traded, it will be for a big time winger for Crosby, not a centre like Eric Staal.

BTW. How can you say Malkin is lazy? Sure he is a streaky player, but he's not lazy. You are dissing a player who single handedly eliminated your team a few years ago.

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01-06-2011, 10:33 PM
  #159
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Staal had a 100 point season......the season the Canes won the cup. i think if you take a look at the people playing on Malkin's teams in those years, esp his direct supporting cast, and then compare that with Staal's, you will see that Staal had basically no one the whole time except Whitney, a little Williams, a downturning Stillman.....and those were the best ones. Malkin the whole time has had Crosby, so that right there pretty much overall skill wise covers all 3. plus he's had some other good wingers with him that have been as good or better than any of those 3, or any of the other wingers Staal has had. Case in point: Staal has been just behind Malkin for the most part in point production with not even half the quality of offensive supporting cast.

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01-06-2011, 10:38 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Anton Skinner View Post
Staal had a 100 point season......the season the Canes won the cup. i think if you take a look at the people playing on Malkin's teams in those years, esp his direct supporting cast, and then compare that with Staal's, you will see that Staal had basically no one the whole time except Whitney, a little Williams, a downturning Stillman.....and those were the best ones. Malkin the whole time has had Crosby, so that right there pretty much overall skill wise covers all 3. plus he's had some other good wingers with him that have been as good or better than any of those 3, or any of the other wingers Staal has had. Case in point: Staal has been just behind Malkin for the most part in point production with not even half the quality of offensive supporting cast.
Except Malkin pretty much only plays Crosby on the power play, one that has been terrible in recent seasons. And don't even start with the wingers... it's common knowledge that the Penguins have one of the worst collections of wingers.

How about Talbot and Kennedy? Fedotenko and Ponikarovsky? Would you like those guys playing with Staal instead? Give me Williams, Whitney, Cole, or Stillman any day of the week over the guys Malkin has played with.

EDIT: It says something about your depth when Matt Friggin' Cooke is playing next to Malkin.

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01-06-2011, 10:48 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by PenguinsFan2008 View Post
Except Malkin pretty much only plays Crosby on the power play, one that has been terrible in recent seasons. And don't even start with the wingers... it's common knowledge that the Penguins have one of the worst collections of wingers.

How about Talbot and Kennedy? Fedotenko and Ponikarovsky? Would you like those guys playing with Staal instead? Give me Williams, Whitney, Cole, or Stillman any day of the week over the guys Malkin has played with.

EDIT: It says something about your depth when Matt Friggin' Cooke is playing next to Malkin.
lol Cooke. yeah that one is laughable. I didnt put cole in there cause well....he is always injured, and when he isnt, until this year, he has been pretty......invisible. same move over and over, smae thing happens....nothing. Whitney was the only consistent threat on the wing Staal ever had. Williams was good, but he also was a little injury prone. I would take Poni or Kennedy over Stillman or Cole between 06-09, personally. Of course that is on a different team. You have to also look at the fact that we had Samsonov and LaRose playing his wing, Sammy not as much, and LaRose quite a bit end of last year, beginning of this year. Jokinen last year was money with Staal, but not so much anymore. There has been talent there at times, but nothing consistent.

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01-06-2011, 10:55 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Anton Skinner View Post
lol Cooke. yeah that one is laughable. I didnt put cole in there cause well....he is always injured, and when he isnt, until this year, he has been pretty......invisible. same move over and over, smae thing happens....nothing. Whitney was the only consistent threat on the wing Staal ever had. Williams was good, but he also was a little injury prone. I would take Poni or Kennedy over Stillman or Cole between 06-09, personally. Of course that is on a different team. You have to also look at the fact that we had Samsonov and LaRose playing his wing, Sammy not as much, and LaRose quite a bit end of last year, beginning of this year. Jokinen last year was money with Staal, but not so much anymore. There has been talent there at times, but nothing consistent.
Stillman looked like he was on his last tank of gas after you guys won the Cup. And yeah, Williams makes Marian Gaborik proud. Although, Skinner looks like he could be something special next to Staal.

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01-06-2011, 11:00 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by PenguinsFan2008 View Post
Stillman looked like he was on his last tank of gas after you guys won the Cup. And yeah, Williams makes Marian Gaborik proud. Although, Skinner looks like he could be something special next to Staal.
Skinner is definitely going to be special. but it is still up in the air for whether he will be winger or #2 center. he'll prob bounce back and forth. Sutter will be #3 center most likely, as that is the role he is rounding into. and skinner will probably fill in #2 until Dalpe can take it full time. skinner has looked better at center since switching over about 10 games ago, though. so who really knows. i guess it is nice to finally not have so many vets clogging things up that our kids get a chance to shine.

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01-07-2011, 07:55 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Better get checked for Alzheimer's, because you have a habit of completely forgetting how arguments progress. You said:

I responded with quotes from teammates about how what Malkin did on the ice is exactly what made him a leader. It wasn't at all used as a mark in his favour over Staal, it was used to define what actual NHL players think of leadership - and how Malkin qualified.

Whenever Crosby's been out, Malkin has been spectacular. He is the main reason the Pens stayed in playoff contention in '08.

He can't do anything about being on the same team as the best player in the world - again, Staal would be in the same position if he were in Malkin's shoes.

I don't have a Grit-o-Meter. He's been playing injured for a year-and-a-half.


What are you, new? Malkin did exactly the same thing when Crosby went down in '08.

Head-to-head, Conference Finals '09. Malkin led his team to the Stanley Cup Finals with a dominating performance against the Staal-led Hurricanes. 9 points in 4 games to Staal's 2.

It doesn't get much more definitive than that.
Hysterical. Super job, as usual, of going in every direction but the main one. Read this a few times before you respond again, ok? The point was who is a better leader. Got it? You cited only on-ice performance and I stated it goes beyond that, as was the case with Tim Taylor being the C in Tampa. Remember?

So let's assume both guys have teammates who will say good things about them being leaders, ok? You are intent on proving Malkin is a good leader. By ranking Staal over him, that doesn't mean he isn't, it simply means I don't think he is on par with Staal. It's very simple. Your example of Malkin leading the Pens when Crosby went down is a poor analogy. They were a good team, while Carolina spent much of last year battling EDM for worst record in the league. Staal is named C and a very mediocre team goes on a tear. Certainly you can see the difference or is your homerism that unshakable?

Now again, are you making the case that Malkin is a better leader than Staal? I made my case and gave specifics. Whether you agree or not is fine. All you are trying to do, and in vain, is counter my points rather than make your own. Either state your case or move on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
The main argument has nothing to do with who's more marketable, or who would be a preferable "face of the franchise".
No, it's a legit argument as to the OP's proposal. But then again, I'm not sure you even know what the main argument is so...


Last edited by StormCast: 01-07-2011 at 08:00 AM.
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01-07-2011, 08:14 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Your example of Malkin leading the Pens when Crosby went down is a poor analogy. They were a good team, while Carolina spent much of last year battling EDM for worst record in the league. Staal is named C and a very mediocre team goes on a tear. Certainly you can see the difference or is your homerism that unshakable?
So essentially, any example I give is going to be refuted because you believe the Pens are a good team ipso facto.

That's retarded.

The fact is that he stepped up when the team's best player and #1 goalie went down to injury for long stretches, and the team's success was anything but guaranteed.

Quote:
Now again, are you making the case that Malkin is a better leader than Staal? I made my case and gave specifics. Whether you agree or not is fine. All you are trying to do, and in vain, is counter my points rather than make your own. Either state your case or move on.
I'm saying nobody has any reason to rate Staal over Malkin as a leader, especially since head-to-head, Geno led the Pens over the Hurricanes with a dominating performance, while Staal wilted.

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01-07-2011, 09:11 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
The fact is that he stepped up when the team's best player and #1 goalie went down to injury for long stretches, and the team's success was anything but guaranteed.

I'm saying nobody has any reason to rate Staal over Malkin as a leader, especially since head-to-head, Geno led the Pens over the Hurricanes with a dominating performance, while Staal wilted.
On the first point, they were a much better team that year obviously than were the Canes last year when Staal was named captain. He took a much weaker team on his back, without his #1 goalie for much of the time, and put the team in a position to make a playoff run. You conveniently forget that Malkin's time as THE MAN, the guy other teams build game plans around is very limited vs. Staal. Most times he plays in a supporting role with Crosby there while Staal is THE focal point for every opponent.

On your second point, seriously? Last I checked it's a team sport but you want to cherry pick this kind of example? Too funny and you are a much bigger homer than I thought I guess. So every time one team beats another in a playoff series, it determines who is the better leader, even when you compare an A to a C? Incredible and absurd - it was simply a case of Malkin having a better series. I know it and you know it. Way to shed any trace of credibility. Homer.


Last edited by StormCast: 01-07-2011 at 09:51 AM.
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01-07-2011, 09:52 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by PenguinsFan2008 View Post
Except Malkin pretty much only plays Crosby on the power play, one that has been terrible in recent seasons. And don't even start with the wingers... it's common knowledge that the Penguins have one of the worst collections of wingers.

How about Talbot and Kennedy? Fedotenko and Ponikarovsky? Would you like those guys playing with Staal instead? Give me Williams, Whitney, Cole, or Stillman any day of the week over the guys Malkin has played with.

EDIT: It says something about your depth when Matt Friggin' Cooke is playing next to Malkin.
19.27% EV 59 LAROSE,CHAD - 14 SAMSONOV,SERGEI - 12 STAAL,ERIC
14.28% EV 36 JOKINEN,JUSSI - 59 LAROSE,CHAD - 12 STAAL,ERIC
13.33% EV 26 COLE,ERIK - 14 SAMSONOV,SERGEI - 12 STAAL,ERIC
12.58% EV 26 COLE,ERIK - 53 SKINNER,JEFF - 12 STAAL,ERIC

Those are Staal's most common line combinations this season. I bolded the players who are not on pace for 40 points.

And there's no Crosby for Staal to play with on the powerplay. There's a Tuomo Ruutu.

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01-07-2011, 09:59 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Anton Dubinsky View Post
19.27% EV 59 LAROSE,CHAD - 14 SAMSONOV,SERGEI - 12 STAAL,ERIC
14.28% EV 36 JOKINEN,JUSSI - 59 LAROSE,CHAD - 12 STAAL,ERIC
13.33% EV 26 COLE,ERIK - 14 SAMSONOV,SERGEI - 12 STAAL,ERIC
12.58% EV 26 COLE,ERIK - 53 SKINNER,JEFF - 12 STAAL,ERIC

Those are Staal's most common line combinations this season. I bolded the players who are not on pace for 40 points.

And there's no Crosby for Staal to play with on the powerplay. There's a Tuomo Ruutu.
Malkin and Crosby also play on the same line far more than is being stated in this thread. Plus it's too funny to read the "well Malkin and Crosby do play on the same PP unit but it sucks..." reasoning.

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01-07-2011, 10:32 AM
  #169
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Malkin and Crosby also play on the same line far more than is being stated in this thread. Plus it's too funny to read the "well Malkin and Crosby do play on the same PP unit but it sucks..." reasoning.
There's also the matter of Malkin benefiting from playing behind Crosby in regards to match-ups, though that might have already been covered as I fully admit to not being interested in reading this overly redundant thread in its entirety.

And 20:11 a game is not "second line minutes." If you remove PK time from the equation, Malkin is playing 20:07 compared to Staal's 20:19.

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01-07-2011, 11:09 AM
  #170
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Ignoring the inevitable banter of "Who's better than who", this doesn't happen for one reason:

JR won't make a Russian the face of the franchise. Especially not a Russian who's already got a reputation as being lazy.
Ya when he singled handedly eliminated the Canes in 09 im sure Rutherford was thinking how much he doesnt like him

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01-07-2011, 11:22 AM
  #171
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This thread is hilarious.

Who is better at the English language and doing fun community stuff?
E Staal>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Malkin

Who is the superior hockey player?
Malkin>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Staal

You guys want to discuss ratings and cherry pick quotes. It goes both ways....

Interview with Eric Staal via ESPN on January 6th, 2009:

"Q: Who is the best player in the game today?

A: Right now I would say [Evgeni] Malkin. I think he's playing the game with so much confidence. He's making plays that not a lot of guys can make. They have a great one-two combo with [Sidney] Crosby and Malkin. On the power play they're lethal, and I think overall Malkin is playing the best in the league right now."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/column...vid&id=3764185

If people want to continue going on a diatribe about how overrated Malkin is, then please continue. But my guess is that the majority of hockey fans will consider Malkin to be the superior hockey player over Eric Staal any day of the week, oh wait, "and twice on Sunday". If Canes fans are in love with Staal so much, why create this moronic proposal. Both teams FANS say no, but I'd be fairly confident that the Canes would swap Staal for Malkin in a New York minute if it was possible. Just close this stupid thread. Malkin has accomplished so much more than Staal. Staal's 2nd best season statistically is 82 points in 82 games which barely beats Malkin's worst season of 77 points in 67 games. Staal is just simply not nearly as dynamic a hockey player as Malkin. If you want to discuss who's the great captain and community leader, please start a poll somewhere else, though you might hear from Hawks fans about Mr. Intangibles and from Flyers fans about Captain Leadership. As far as the best hockey players, not including defensemen, Malkin, Ovie, Stamkos, Crosby, and Datsyuk are it. The rest just don't compare.

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01-07-2011, 12:09 PM
  #172
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I can read just fine, thank you. It has been pointed out several times by other Canes fans that they consider Staal to be the better player. If you want to start personally insulting me because of some weird insecurity you have about Malkin then go ahead. The Pens are not looking for a marketable community team leader. The Pens want a top notch game changer which both players certainly are, but Malkin is one of THE game changers. I'm not going to get in a pissing match about this. Your argument centers around "marketability and leadership" which is fine and all, but I want the better PLAYER on my team = Malkin. If you want to insult me personally some more, that's fine. Whatever makes you feel better slugger. I really don't care two ***** about your insults. I think it's hilarious how you need to attack others to make your argument more plausible. Keep going with it!!!
Ya the Pens really need someone like that, def lacking

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01-07-2011, 12:20 PM
  #173
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I can read just fine, thank you. It has been pointed out several times by other Canes fans that they consider Staal to be the better player.
That's just not true.

I just re-read the thread and as far as I can see, there were 3 people making a claim such as this.

Shawn911 (OP) who is not a Canes fan. Based on a quick look at his posting history I am guessing he is a Leafs fan? (not sure, but definitely not Canes)

HURLEY didn't say Staal was better, but said he would rather have Staal. Again, not a Canes fan, is from Vancouver.

NewtonsApple who has been strongest of his opinion of Staal over Malkin. Once again, not a Canes fan.

The majority of comments from Canes fans state that Malkin is the better player, but as the Face of the Franchise in Carolina, Staal is more important to Carolina from a marketing standpoint (and we'd be shocked if our GM would ever trade for a Russian in that role). There has been a discussion between a couple of posters on both side about who is a better leader, but that is debatable and pretty much impossible to prove (but a reasonable disagreement to have).

EDIT: Your other comment was "If Canes fans are in love with Staal so much, why create this moronic proposal."

There have been countless number of proposals for Eric Staal on the trade forums the last couple of years. I could be wrong, but as far as I know, not 1 of them was ever created by a Canes fan.


Last edited by Boom Boom Anton: 01-07-2011 at 12:32 PM.
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01-07-2011, 12:21 PM
  #174
Boom Boom Anton
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Originally Posted by Anderson55 View Post
Ya the Pens really need someone like that, def lacking
But that wasn't the point. The point was the CAROLINA definitely needs that so that aspect is more important to the Canes than it would be to the Pens.

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01-07-2011, 12:56 PM
  #175
sawtooth420
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Anton View Post
That's just not true.

I just re-read the thread and as far as I can see, there were 3 people making a claim such as this.

Shawn911 (OP) who is not a Canes fan. Based on a quick look at his posting history I am guessing he is a Leafs fan? (not sure, but definitely not Canes)

HURLEY didn't say Staal was better, but said he would rather have Staal. Again, not a Canes fan, is from Vancouver.

NewtonsApple who has been strongest of his opinion of Staal over Malkin. Once again, not a Canes fan.

The majority of comments from Canes fans state that Malkin is the better player, but as the Face of the Franchise in Carolina, Staal is more important to Carolina from a marketing standpoint (and we'd be shocked if our GM would ever trade for a Russian in that role).

There has been a discussion between a couple of posters on both side about who is a better leader, but that is debatable and pretty much impossible to prove (but a reasonable disagreement to have).

This is reasonable but I disagree with some of it.

I do not know what team the OP is a fan of, but I don't believe it's the Pens and he clearly states that "Staal is the much better player...overall"

HooliganX2 implies that Staal is better for the Canes because he is a better leader. I respectfully disagree.

Anton Bomb considers Malkin a lazy Russian, which is not what the Canes GM wants in his opinion. I disagree that Malkin is lazy and that the Canes GM would not trade Staal asap if Malkin was offered

Hurley is not a Canes fan and likes Staal more. My bad that I lumped him in with Canes fans, not implying that his opinion isn't valid

Newtons Apple may not be a Canes fan (I'm not able to look at his posts so I don't know who he likes), but he definitely isn't a Malkin fan. That much is clear.

Caniac certainly implies that Staal is the better player for Carolina, that the OP is a Pens fan, which I have not seen any evidence of...and that I can't read

Vagrant (a Canes fan) likens Malkin to Yashin...Yikes. Hope thats not true.

StormCast (a Canes fan) considers Staal to be better defensively "by far" and he's a better leader, better at protecting pucks, blah blah blah, I disagree with everything he says. Malkin led the league or was second in takeaways with Datsyuk. He owns the puck when it's on his stick too.


Eventually some backtrack about Staal being a better player and like him because they think he's the better leader. I agreee with you about some stuff and disagree about some other stuff. Either way, neither team's fans do this trade, but I do think the Canes GM would do this if Malkin was offered, IMO. God Bless.

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