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Flyers’ Meszaros Quietly Having Banner Year

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01-07-2011, 08:30 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
You are changing the parameters of your own argument.

You originally said



No mention of Cup contender.
Fine. Which team is better, the Flyers who are built the first way, or the Devils, Habs, and Leafs who all have or will have $5M+ goalies?

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01-07-2011, 08:31 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
No Leighton sucked too. Not denying that. But Leighton's awfulness would have been overcomeable if we had 6 guys to play D and not 4.
Again i ask you, how would having a solid 3rd pairing prevent leighton from letting in those piss porr goals he let on game after game? How wold the eager goal been prevented by having mezaros or odonnel on the ice?

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01-07-2011, 08:33 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Fine. Which team is better, the Flyers who are built the first way, or the Devils, Habs, and Leafs who all have or will have $5M+ goalies?
if the flyers win a cup then the flyers, otherwise it really doesnt matter.

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01-07-2011, 08:34 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
$4M is most certainly not the going rate for a 2nd pairing guy. $3M isn't even necessarily the going rate for a 2nd pairing guy. There are no. 1s and 2s out there making less than Meszaros.
I don't know. Other than your #2 overall picks on entry level deals like Doughty, who? I don't doubt that you can find a few guys around the league making less that are better but I think you guys are underrating how much quality D costs

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01-07-2011, 08:35 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Inebriator View Post
I wasn't really trying to compare the Pens in a who's better type of way, just pointing out that even the best teams have some major weaknesses. Their winger situation is absolutely a weakness but as you pointed out their Center depth can help mitigate that. Same goes for our D - Goalie situtation, IMO.
The Pens can get away with it though because they have 2 guys who are all-world players when they're on plus Staal who is arguably a better ES player than anyone on the Flyers roster except for maybe Carter (and that's a big maybe).

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I don't really agree that Carle, Coburn, and Mez are drastically overpaid. D is expensive and lately 3.5-4.5 is the going rate for your above average 2ndish pairing guys. Carle and Coburn particularly can be frustrating to watch and its easy to sour on them until you watch some other teams and realize that our defense is a luxury. There's a lot of ****** D out there and not many teams even have guys like Carle and Coburn in their 3-5 spots
I do think you can make that argument for Carle and maaybbeee Mes (I think Mes has a higher defensive ceiling if he's given more of an opportunity), but not for Coburn.

Coburn contributes zero offensively and is very average defensively, I mean, what makes Coburn that much better than a guy like O'Donnell when it comes down to it?

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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Fine. Which team is better, the Flyers who are built the first way, or the Devils, Habs, and Leafs who all have or will have $5M+ goalies?
Which team is better, the Flyers or the Canucks? Which team is better, the Flyers or the Pens?

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01-07-2011, 08:36 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NWO View Post
Again i ask you, how would having a solid 3rd pairing prevent leighton from letting in those piss porr goals he let on game after game? How wold the eager goal been prevented by having mezaros or odonnel on the ice?
Look Leighton was absolutely brutal, but acting like a better 3rd pairing would not have had a big impact in that series then I don't know what you are watching

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01-07-2011, 08:38 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
Again i ask you, how would having a solid 3rd pairing prevent leighton from letting in those piss porr goals he let on game after game? How wold the eager goal been prevented by having mezaros or odonnel on the ice?
The four or five bad goals wouldn't have changed. But with a real 3rd pairing, maybe the Flyers win game 5 because Pronger is a +1 instead of a -5 or whatever he was. Maybe they win game 6 in regulation, or they don't give up 30+ shots in game 1 and win that.

They gave up 25 goals, 23 of them in 5 games. That's a defensive failure, not just a goaltending one.

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01-07-2011, 08:40 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
The Pens can get away with it though because they have 2 guys who are all-world players when they're on plus Staal who is arguably a better ES player than anyone on the Flyers roster except for maybe Carter (and that's a big maybe).



I do think you can make that argument for Carle and maaybbeee Mes (I think Mes has a higher defensive ceiling if he's given more of an opportunity), but not for Coburn.

Coburn contributes zero offensively and is very average defensively, I mean, what makes Coburn that much better than a guy like O'Donnell when it comes down to it?



Which team is better, the Flyers or the Canucks? Which team is better, the Flyers or the Pens?
OK, the Pens I guess I have to give you, but that's because they get Crosby at a steal. Without the individual cap, his production is easily worth $15M of cap space.

Canucks we'll have to see. I would like the Flyers in that series.

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01-07-2011, 08:41 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
The Pens can get away with it though because they have 2 guys who are all-world players when they're on plus Staal who is arguably a better ES player than anyone on the Flyers roster except for maybe Carter (and that's a big maybe).
Right. But the Flyers definitely have better depth and better D. I'm not saying we are definitely as good as the Pens but its close.

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I do think you can make that argument for Carle and maaybbeee Mes (I think Mes has a higher defensive ceiling if he's given more of an opportunity), but not for Coburn.

Coburn contributes zero offensively and is very average defensively, I mean, what makes Coburn that much better than a guy like O'Donnell when it comes down to it?
I think Coburn's young enough that he's definitely paid on potential to some degree. I agree though that Coburn's direction has been a bit disappointing. Still, he's a pretty good D.

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Which team is better, the Flyers or the Canucks? Which team is better, the Flyers or the Pens?
Until the Flyers beat the PEns in the playoffs, the Pens. But that's not because of MAF, who has been really horrible at times (last year?). Theres no reason to rate the Nucks any higher than the Flyers. They haven't done anything more

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01-07-2011, 08:45 PM
  #110
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The Meszaros trade was questioned because it was clear that making two trades with Tampa Bay within 3 weeks in July, Holmgren had no plan. He'd rather give up assets than negotiate in an open market with players like the other 29 GMs, and not allow himself to overpay for guys, and my proof to this theory is Jody Shelley.

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01-07-2011, 08:47 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Goalies that give up goals from the far blue lines aren't in the NHL.
Way to just let hyperbole roll right on past you...

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A team that signs are starter for $2M and backup for $1M and wisely spends $56M on the rest of the team will be a better team than a team that spends $6M + $1M on goalies and $52M on the rest of the team, even if the $52M is spent just as wisely.
BS. I mean, sorry, but it really is. Largely because it's completely out of touch with goalie salaries around the league. The market has driven salaries down, but it hasn't driven them down that far. It also ignores that there is a huge difference between the top guys, and the guys that you can sign for those cheaper deals.

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01-07-2011, 08:47 PM
  #112
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The Gagne trade was questioned, too. But you know, maybe Homer knew what he was doing there too.

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01-07-2011, 08:49 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by The Inebriator View Post
I don't know. Other than your #2 overall picks on entry level deals like Doughty, who? I don't doubt that you can find a few guys around the league making less that are better but I think you guys are underrating how much quality D costs
I ran through the totals earlier in the thread... there are only 36 D making $4+M a year in the entire league right now.

D got really expensive for a while, and then it retreated (like everything else) as caps constricted. Goalies are seeing the same exact impact on their respective salaries. Meszaros benefited greatly from signing his deal (just like Carle did) when he did, and now it's completely out of line with the market.

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01-07-2011, 08:49 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
The Gagne trade was questioned, too. But you know, maybe Homer knew what he was doing there too.
We have cap issues and he took on longterm salary. Mes is overpaid but a good player. Walker is severely overpaid and not even a player.

Tampa got an expiring contract and the ability to improve their team and keep it together.

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01-07-2011, 08:49 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Way to just let hyperbole roll right on past you...



BS. I mean, sorry, but it really is. Largely because it's completely out of touch with goalie salaries around the league. The market has driven salaries down, but it hasn't driven them down that far. It also ignores that there is a huge difference between the top guys, and the guys that you can sign for those cheaper deals.
You let me know when the first team to win in the cap world when the goalie is among their highest paid players, ok?

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01-07-2011, 08:49 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
The Gagne trade was questioned, too. But you know, maybe Homer knew what he was doing there too.
He probably could have saved himself some aggravation by simply trading Gagne for Meszaros.

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01-07-2011, 08:52 PM
  #117
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Mountainhawk,

Anaheim with JSG backstopping 'em says hello.

You are also ignoring that we have a couple of examples of 1st round picks who are now getting paid that have won Cups in a cap world (MAF and Ward).

The idea that you can get away without investing in the goaltending position is a myth largely built by the Detroit Red Wings... the only team in the league it's consistently worked out for, and even they threw money at goalie (Joseph and Hasek).

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01-07-2011, 08:53 PM
  #118
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You let me know when the first team to win in the cap world when the goalie is among their highest paid players, ok?
Marc-Andre Fleury

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01-07-2011, 08:53 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Anaheim with JSG backstopping 'em says hello.
You sure you know what Giggy was being paid when he won?

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01-07-2011, 08:54 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Mountainhawk,

Anaheim with JSG backstopping 'em says hello.

You are also ignoring that we have a couple of examples of 1st round picks who are now getting paid that have won Cups in a cap world (MAF and Ward).

The idea that you can get away without investing in the goaltending position is a myth largely built by the Detroit Red Wings... the only team in the league it's consistently worked out for, and even they threw money at goalie (Joseph and Hasek).
Worked out ok for Chicago as well.

And damn, forgot about Anaheim, but that was the first year after the cap, so I think it was a little different because no one was really cap optimized yet.

I think we'll see goaltenders salaries retreat until it's worth signing the top guys, but using more than 6-8% on the position is a total waste.

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01-07-2011, 08:55 PM
  #121
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You sure you know what Giggy was being paid when he won?
Off the top of my head? No idea... but something tells me the dude that was a Greek God getting Anaheim to the Cup Finals in '02-'03 wasn't cheap.

5 years $20M, so 4 per cap hit.

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01-07-2011, 08:55 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Marc-Andre Fleury
Didn't he sign that right after the Cup win?

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01-07-2011, 08:55 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Worked out ok for Chicago as well.

And damn, forgot about Anaheim, but that was the first year after the cap, so I think it was a little different because no one was really cap optimized yet.

I think we'll see goaltenders salaries retreat until it's worth signing the top guys, but using more than 6-8% on the position is a total waste.
I agree but you can get a quality goalie for 4-5M. And the difference between Bryz and MFL cannot be overstated.

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01-07-2011, 08:56 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Marc-Andre Fleury
How many teams have the luxury of skimping on depth because they have two of the (at the time) best forwards in the world and the perfect third line center?

And they were certainly the lesser team to Detroit the year they won the Cup. I consider that a fluke, and Fleury is hardly deserving of his contract anyway. It's not like they were paying elite money to an elite goaltender; it was elite money to an above-average goalie.

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01-07-2011, 08:57 PM
  #125
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Off the top of my head? No idea... but something tells me the dude that was a Greek God getting Anaheim to the Cup Finals in '02-'03 wasn't cheap.
$4M per, not sure if that was after the pay cut they all took after the lockout.

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