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Question: If Gainey resigned 3 years earlier and left Gauthier in charge....

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01-07-2011, 02:05 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by EXPOS123 View Post
So basically we traded our most valuable asset for a guy who can't play for us now or in the forseeable future (unless you think he is a third liner) because like it or not, we are stuck with gomez or pleks for the next three years at center. All the while Halak is turning his team into a serious cup contender and we still have other major holes with nobody to fill them (hello defense!). Yup, management clearly thought this one through.
The same guy that got lit up by the Leafs last night?

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01-07-2011, 02:15 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by EXPOS123 View Post
So basically we traded our most valuable asset for a guy who can't play for us now or in the forseeable future (unless you think he is a third liner) because like it or not, we are stuck with gomez or pleks for the next three years at center. All the while Halak is turning his team into a serious cup contender and we still have other major holes with nobody to fill them (hello defense!). Yup, management clearly thought this one through.
So, what you're saying is : you havent watch a single Blues game this year!

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01-07-2011, 02:48 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
So, what you're saying is : you havent watch a single Blues game this year!
I don't understand - the team is 20-13-6 in 39 games and missing Tj Oshie David Perron and Andy Mcdonald for extended periods. Oh, and Halak is 15-11-2 with a 2.51GAA. What am I not seeing? And they sill have some trading chips to improve their roster.So to answer your question, yes I do believe the Blues are contenders and they have a goalie who can propel them.

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01-07-2011, 02:50 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by EXPOS123 View Post
I don't understand - the team is 20-13-6 in 39 games and missing Tj Oshie David Perron and Andy Mcdonald for extended periods. Oh, and Halak is 15-11-2 with a 2.51GAA. What am I not seeing? And they sill have some trading chips to improve their roster.So to answer your question, yes I do believe the Blues are contenders and they have a goalie who can propel them.
and... based on what YOU saw from them ?



oh, and since you seems to like stats, here it is :

Halak
SV% : 24th in the league
GAA : 16th
W : 14th

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01-07-2011, 02:57 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by EXPOS123 View Post
So basically we traded our most valuable asset for a guy who can't play for us now or in the forseeable future (unless you think he is a third liner) because like it or not, we are stuck with gomez or pleks for the next three years at center. All the while Halak is turning his team into a serious cup contender and we still have other major holes with nobody to fill them (hello defense!). Yup, management clearly thought this one through.
Besides the fact that several people have pointed out the silliness of your post already, I felt compelled to do the same. Halak wasn't our best asset to trade, far from it, he was the most expendable; there is a big difference.

Besides the fact that is has been pointed out ad-naseum the low market value for goalies, the return was actually quite good. I love how you have defensemen as a need, I guess that is what you would call using hindsight for your argument. At the beginning of the season we had 8 NHL caliber defensemen, plenty of bodies, and it was IMO our strongest position by quite a margin.

Hamrlik
Markov
Gorges
Subban
Gill
Spacek
O'Byrne
Picard

That is one of the deepest defensemen corps in the league. The only reason you are even bringing that up is because 3 of them are freaking injured.

And yes, I do think Eller is a thirdliner at this point. He is a freaking rookie, he needs time to progress, and he is in a good position to do that with two good solid centers in front of him. What is wrong with having him as our third line center for the next two years? You are aware that Plekanec was put in the same situation right?

I am not even going to touch the comical line about Halak turning the Blues into a "serious contender", it doesn't even need to be touched, its ridiculous as is.

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01-07-2011, 02:59 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by ChesterNimitz View Post
While probably not his defining transaction, Gainey's decision to not resign a clearly diminishing Kovalev, was among his most prescient one's. For all those who continually harp about the lavish amounts that the team is paying Gomez, paying Kovalev the amount he was seeking would have proved to have been an even worse ROI. Just ask the Ottawa fans.

That is all.
So his best move is not signing a player who was terrible for whole seasons at a time for a crazy amount of cash? Well that really speaks volumes for the rest of his **** moves.

If you need some sort of GM "superpowers" to see kovafloat was past his prime by ages and was a main reason this team was terrible than I guess sign me up!

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01-07-2011, 03:00 PM
  #132
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Gainey did a good job. After all, he took the team after the Réjean Houle / Mario Tremblay fiasco. When I remember those dark days I feel sad. The team we have right now is the result of a lot of effort, and if it's not working at 100%, he did the best he could do.

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01-07-2011, 03:01 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by EXPOS123 View Post
I don't understand - the team is 20-13-6 in 39 games and missing Tj Oshie David Perron and Andy Mcdonald for extended periods. Oh, and Halak is 15-11-2 with a 2.51GAA. What am I not seeing? And they sill have some trading chips to improve their roster.So to answer your question, yes I do believe the Blues are contenders and they have a goalie who can propel them.
If the Blues are contenders, then I'm curious, what are your other contenders??..

We are 22-16-3, without Markov who's arguably top 10 Dman in the NHL. We also had Moen (or Lappy/pyatt/Darche) on the second line for about 30 games. And for the past 5games, we've been without Gorges.
Price has a 20-14-3 record with 2.32GAA 920Sv%, which are better stats than Halak and both are tied with 4shutouts.

Are we contenders too??..


The Blues are not contenders. Maybe they will be once everybody is back, but there's no way to know for now.

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01-07-2011, 03:03 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
Gainey was an excellent pre-cap GM, had no idea how to manage his assets the last few years. I still shake my head at not trading Souray or Streit, but letting them walk for nothing.
You don't throw up white flags when you're chasing a playoff spot, or in the case of Streit, in first place.

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01-07-2011, 03:03 PM
  #135
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They are a contender for sure, since they will have a playoff spot at this pace.
But Serious contender? No

Even for all the love i have/had for Halak, his team will have a few good years in the future with their young assets, but its clearly not this year

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01-07-2011, 03:05 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Halakalakaboom View Post
Gainey did a good job. After all, he took the team after the Réjean Houle / Mario Tremblay fiasco. When I remember those dark days I feel sad. The team we have right now is the result of a lot of effort, and if it's not working at 100%, he did the best he could do.
I think so too, I wouldn't say he was amazing; but he brought a dead team up to a respectable level, that has made the playoffs 5 times in the last 6 years, and the time we didn't we missed it by one point.

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01-07-2011, 03:23 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Besides the fact that several people have pointed out the silliness of your post already, I felt compelled to do the same. Halak wasn't our best asset to trade, far from it, he was the most expendable; there is a big difference.

Besides the fact that is has been pointed out ad-naseum the low market value for goalies, the return was actually quite good. I love how you have defensemen as a need, I guess that is what you would call using hindsight for your argument. At the beginning of the season we had 8 NHL caliber defensemen, plenty of bodies, and it was IMO our strongest position by quite a margin.

Hamrlik
Markov
Gorges
Subban
Gill
Spacek
O'Byrne
Picard

That is one of the deepest defensemen corps in the league. The only reason you are even bringing that up is because 3 of them are freaking injured.

And yes, I do think Eller is a thirdliner at this point. He is a freaking rookie, he needs time to progress, and he is in a good position to do that with two good solid centers in front of him. What is wrong with having him as our third line center for the next two years? You are aware that Plekanec was put in the same situation right?

I am not even going to touch the comical line about Halak turning the Blues into a "serious contender", it doesn't even need to be touched, its ridiculous as is.
Depth/quantity does not equate quality. And no, I am not bringing that up just now. Many people like myself foresaw that our defense was already weak to begin with given the age and fragility of some players, not to mention that we have rookies who were bound to struggle as all rookies do. I already corrected myself be agreeing that i went overboard on the serious contenders statement. We can argue ad naseum about the trade value of Halak, but i would have targeted other players to fill other needs, especially if you know in advance you will not be able to put a player in the line up at his strongest position. My original point is that, after all is said and done, we will have nothing to show for the Halak trade this year and the forseeable future while the Blues will, maybe not contend, but make a strong playoff push while we'll be out of it. I guess time will tell if I'm "silly and ridiclous" as you claim I am. I'm curious, are you one of those people who thought Gainey was a genious for getting Gomez? Just asking. And by the way, I hope I am wrong because I do want this team to succeed, but I just have no faith in the managment team that has been in place for the past ten years.

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01-07-2011, 03:45 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by EXPOS123 View Post
Many people like myself foresaw that our defense was already weak to begin with given the age and fragility of some players, not to mention that we have rookies who were bound to struggle as all rookies do.
So weak that they were one of the most effective corps against two of the top teams in the league last season in the playoffs? Not to mention how well they played earlier in the season, before the injury bug hit.

OK.

Quote:
I already corrected myself be agreeing that i went overboard on the serious contenders statement. We can argue ad naseum about the trade value of Halak, but i would have targeted other players to fill other needs, especially if you know in advance you will not be able to put a player in the line up at his strongest position.
What on earth are you talking about? Eller is playing center, and he is on the team.

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My original point is that, after all is said and done, we will have nothing to show for the Halak trade this year and the forseeable future while the Blues will, maybe not contend, but make a strong playoff push while we'll be out of it.
While we are out of it? We are freaking one point off the division lead. The Habs odds of making the playoffs are much higher than the Blues.

What exactly is the foreseeable future? I think Eller will be ready to make a considerable impact as soon as next year, maybe even late this year.

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I guess time will tell if I'm "silly and ridiclous" as you claim I am. I'm curious, are you one of those people who thought Gainey was a genious for getting Gomez? Just asking.
No I don't think it is genius, but I don't mind the trade at all. BTW, I don't even know you, but I never said that, your posts are silly.

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01-07-2011, 04:02 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
So weak that they were one of the most effective corps against two of the top teams in the league last season in the playoffs? Not to mention how well they played earlier in the season, before the injury bug hit.

OK.



What on earth are you talking about? Eller is playing center, and he is on the team.



While we are out of it? We are freaking one point off the division lead. The Habs odds of making the playoffs are much higher than the Blues.

What exactly is the foreseeable future? I think Eller will be ready to make a considerable impact as soon as next year, maybe even late this year.



No I don't think it is genius, but I don't mind the trade at all. BTW, I don't even know you, but I never said that, your posts are silly.
Come on our defense has played well? Spacek, Gill, Harmlik,Picard and even Subban were horrible at times this year and Price bailed them out more times than we can count. As for the playoffs, all I can say is one word - Halak. As for Eller, yes, they did play him on the wing.He's also been shown the bench and press box more times than not.I'm fairly certain they will soon send him down to Hamilton. They've also played him as a third line center, but if you really believe that he has contributed there, then that's your opinion. Many scouts do not see him a third or fourth line player. We'll have to agree to disagree on what hapens here on in. But be honest, do you like this team as is? Because things won't change much as there is not much else left on the farm and I can't see them adding bigger pieces given we don't have much left to trade, unless you are willing to trade first round picks.

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01-07-2011, 04:10 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by EXPOS123 View Post
Come on our defense has played well? Spacek, Gill, Harmlik,Picard and even Subban were horrible at times this year and Price bailed them out more times than we can count. As for the playoffs, all I can say is one word - Halak. As for Eller, yes, they did play him on the wing.He's also been shown the bench and press box more times than not.I'm fairly certain they will soon send him down to Hamilton. They've also played him as a third line center, but if you really believe that he has contributed there, then that's your opinion. Many scouts do not see him a third or fourth line player. We'll have to agree to disagree on what hapens here on in. But be honest, do you like this team as is? Because things won't change much as there is not much else left on the farm and I can't see them adding bigger pieces given we don't have much left to trade, unless you are willing to trade first round picks.
Of course, most GOOD are with the Habs for various reasons (Pax, Weber, DD, Subban started here)... be serious for a sec... you expect the Habs to have 20 great prospects in Ham or something ?

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01-07-2011, 04:26 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Of course, most GOOD are with the Habs for various reasons (Pax, Weber, DD, Subban started here)... be serious for a sec... you expect the Habs to have 20 great prospects in Ham or something ?
I don't understand your point. All I'm trying to say is that we can't look to the farm anymore for improvements cuz they're already here. Ditto to improvements through trades - we have nothing left to trade except for Akost and picks(unless they want to trade one our young guns). So basically, what you see is what you're gonna get for the rest of the season and the next ones. Let's hope the rookies pull through and Gomez somehow lives up to his contract. Unless of course, i'm proven wrong and Gauthier pulls a rabbit out the hat (he did surprise me with the Wiz trade, i'll give him that)

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01-07-2011, 04:34 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by EXPOS123 View Post
I don't understand your point. All I'm trying to say is that we can't look to the farm anymore for improvements cuz they're already here. Ditto to improvements through trades - we have nothing left to trade except for Akost and picks(unless they want to trade one our young guns). So basically, what you see is what you're gonna get for the rest of the season and the next ones. Let's hope the rookies pull through and Gomez somehow lives up to his contract. Unless of course, i'm proven wrong and Gauthier pulls a rabbit out the hat (he did surprise me with the Wiz trade, i'll give him that)

what ?

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01-07-2011, 04:40 PM
  #143
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Come on our defense has played well? Spacek, Gill, Harmlik,Picard and even Subban were horrible at times this year and Price bailed them out more times than we can count. As for the playoffs, all I can say is one word - Halak.
Ah, one of my favourite double standards. When they play well, its all the goalie, and when they play bad its all the defense. Kind of reminds me of the coach double standard. And I also love the almighty playoff Halak ARGUMENT NEUTRALIZER, all you have to say is "Halak" and every single argument is completely destroyed instantly.

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As for Eller, yes, they did play him on the wing.He's also been shown the bench and press box more times than not.I'm fairly certain they will soon send him down to Hamilton. They've also played him as a third line center, but if you really believe that he has contributed there, then that's your opinion. Many scouts do not see him a third or fourth line player. We'll have to agree to disagree on what hapens here on in. But be honest, do you like this team as is? Because things won't change much as there is not much else left on the farm and I can't see them adding bigger pieces given we don't have much left to trade, unless you are willing to trade first round picks.
This doesn't even really make sense. You seriously have reading comprehensive deficiencies, I never said Eller has contributed or made an impact yet, THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT OF MY ARGUMENT.

Which scouts are those? Or are you just pulling this out of your ass. Many people don't see Pouliot as an effective 3rd liner, but guess what, he is excelling in that position at this point in his career.

Yes, I like this team. It can be better for sure, it always can, but we have a competitive team, with a good work ethic, a good system, and they are damn hard to beat.

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01-07-2011, 05:22 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by EXPOS123 View Post
Come on our defense has played well? Spacek, Gill, Harmlik,Picard and even Subban were horrible at times this year and Price bailed them out more times than we can count. As for the playoffs, all I can say is one word - Halak. As for Eller, yes, they did play him on the wing.He's also been shown the bench and press box more times than not.I'm fairly certain they will soon send him down to Hamilton. They've also played him as a third line center, but if you really believe that he has contributed there, then that's your opinion. Many scouts do not see him a third or fourth line player. We'll have to agree to disagree on what hapens here on in. But be honest, do you like this team as is? Because things won't change much as there is not much else left on the farm and I can't see them adding bigger pieces given we don't have much left to trade, unless you are willing to trade first round picks.

2.37 GA/G Good enough for fourth in the entire NHL, so yeah we would say the Defense is doing ok. We could be better but we do ok no?

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01-07-2011, 05:45 PM
  #145
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The players listed above that were "lost for nothing" were replaced by players gotten for nothing. Simple math, minus this guy making x and replace him with younger guy that can do that same job, maybe even better, making x.

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01-07-2011, 09:22 PM
  #146
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The players listed above that were "lost for nothing" were replaced by players gotten for nothing. Simple math, minus this guy making x and replace him with younger guy that can do that same job, maybe even better, making x.
Making X+. I can't believe that habs fans honestly believe that a successful core is built through free agency. It almost never happens. We went about everything backwards. You add free agents to put you over the hump, you don't build your team with them. You're almost always gonna overpay. To me, the answer is obvious, you need to develop your core through the draft and add minor tweaks through free agency when you believe you're ready. Buying your entire top line through free agency is a very short sighted way of accomplishing things.

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01-08-2011, 12:48 AM
  #147
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Gainey came here and we were a disaster... He took too much time to analyse the team and make decent choices. On the other hand... he brought most of the players here today... and you can see the direction this team was going when they signed cammy and gionta on top of getting gomez, pyatt ... ect ...

Gauthier seems more proactive... he's going to provoke trades. His management of our depth (ie: (Obyrne, desjardins, lapierre )) is making us a worst team. not keeping a player like dominic moore at his price tag is a crime given the pick you gave up to get him. He's not that good ? then don't get him, as you don't know how it will turn out. Walking hand in hand with JM is a good and a bad thing... I really have a feeling that's why Gauthier is so trigger happy with depth trades... as soon as JM tells him he wouldnt mind, that guy jumps on the phone. ie: why get Boyd and not keep moore ?

bournival - 5th - rammo - nothing vs Obyrne, desjardins, lapierre, dominic moore (or 2nd) ... throwing away our depth only to put yourself in a position where you need to give up other assets to get back the depth you lost sounds like cracker jack management to me. Make a pitch for Torres or someone you see in the scheme of things in the long run ... I'm sick of patching our bottom 6 / low pairing with some silly short term costly (if you add them up)depth moves ...


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01-08-2011, 03:24 AM
  #148
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Gainey came here and we were a disaster... He took too much time to analyse the team and make decent choices. On the other hand... he brought most of the players here today... and you can see the direction this team was going when they signed cammy and gionta on top of getting gomez, pyatt ... ect ...

Gauthier seems more proactive... he's going to provoke trades. His management of our depth (ie: (Obyrne, desjardins, lapierre )) is making us a worst team. not keeping a player like dominic moore at his price tag is a crime given the pick you gave up to get him. He's not that good ? then don't get him, as you don't know how it will turn out. Walking hand in hand with JM is a good and a bad thing... I really have a feeling that's why Gauthier is so trigger happy with depth trades... as soon as JM tells him he wouldnt mind, that guy jumps on the phone. ie: why get Boyd and not keep moore ?

bournival - 5th - rammo - nothing vs Obyrne, desjardins, lapierre, dominic moore (or 2nd) ... throwing away our depth only to put yourself in a position where you need to give up other assets to get back the depth you lost sounds like cracker jack management to me. Make a pitch for Torres or someone you see in the scheme of things in the long run ... I'm sick of patching our bottom 6 / low pairing with some silly short term costly (if you add them up)depth moves ...
signed Halpern to play same role. Wash.

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01-08-2011, 03:50 AM
  #149
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Making X+. I can't believe that habs fans honestly believe that a successful core is built through free agency. It almost never happens. We went about everything backwards. You add free agents to put you over the hump, you don't build your team with them. You're almost always gonna overpay. To me, the answer is obvious, you need to develop your core through the draft and add minor tweaks through free agency when you believe you're ready. Buying your entire top line through free agency is a very short sighted way of accomplishing things.
Just to be accurate, we only have bought two Top-6 forwards through free agency, Cammalleri and Gionta, and they're not even playing on the same line.

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I'm sick of patching our bottom 6 / low pairing with some silly short term costly (if you add them up)depth moves ...
Every team in the NHL (minus one or two exceptions) are doing they business exactly like we are doing it.
This is the only way to do it, as you need room to accomodate your prospects to the NHL, you need to have one or two cheap vets in order to fit under your cap/budget etc...

Do you know that every single bottom-6 player of the Penguins is in a contract year ?
Thats also the case for the Sharks (except Couture) and the Blackhawks...

Depth players are rarely here to stay. Either they improve their play to become more than an average player, or when they become too comfortable, they stop working as hard as they should, and then they should move.

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01-08-2011, 04:16 AM
  #150
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Making X+. I can't believe that habs fans honestly believe that a successful core is built through free agency. It almost never happens. We went about everything backwards. You add free agents to put you over the hump, you don't build your team with them. You're almost always gonna overpay. To me, the answer is obvious, you need to develop your core through the draft and add minor tweaks through free agency when you believe you're ready. Buying your entire top line through free agency is a very short sighted way of accomplishing things.
Paxx (drafted) - Gomez (trade) - Gionta (UFA)
AK (drafted) - Plek (drafted) - Cam (UFA)
Pool (trade) - DD (undrafted, signed by us) or Eller (trade) - Darche (UFA)

so, wich top line are you talking about ?

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