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Cap Geeks: How do we fit Zach Parise on the Rangers?

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Old
01-09-2011, 02:31 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Stugots View Post
"If the 26-year-old winger hits the open market during the summer of 2012, he will become unarguably the greatest player in NHL history to attain freedom at such a young age."

Uh, did LB just forget about Kovalchuk?
Age is the key word in his sentence.

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01-09-2011, 02:33 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by ecemleafs View Post
Parise is a much better player than Kovalchuk.
Based on what?

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01-09-2011, 02:41 PM
  #103
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Based on what?
similar point production in the past few years without the license to do whatever he wants on the ice like kovalchuk and parise isnt a career -100 player.

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01-09-2011, 02:43 PM
  #104
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and how is a torn meniscus a season ending injury?

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01-09-2011, 02:46 PM
  #105
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Parise is better defensively, for sure, but I don't put a ton of stock into those +/- totals. Kovalchuk played his entire career in Atlanta...a far cry from the perennially successful NJD teams that Parise was fortunate enough to find himself on.

I think Parise vs. Kovalchuk is certainly debatable, but to call Parise "far better" just seems like a huge stretch. To this point, Kovalchuk has been one of the game's absolute elite players.

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01-09-2011, 02:49 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Parise is better defensively, for sure, but I don't put a ton of stock into those +/- totals. Kovalchuk played his entire career in Atlanta...a far cry from the perennially successful NJD teams that Parise was fortunate enough to find himself on.

I think Parise vs. Kovalchuk is certainly debatable, but to call Parise "far better" just seems like a huge stretch. To this point, Kovalchuk has been one of the game's absolute elite players.
i dont usually put much in +/- either. but when one player is a +60 and another is a -110....thats a lot of ****ing goals. its also not a situation where one player is a 3rd pairing dman not playing against other teams top players and has a good +/- because of this, gilroy/staal situation this year. both parise and kovy have been 1st line players for years.

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01-09-2011, 03:14 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Parise is better defensively, for sure, but I don't put a ton of stock into those +/- totals. Kovalchuk played his entire career in Atlanta...a far cry from the perennially successful NJD teams that Parise was fortunate enough to find himself on.

I think Parise vs. Kovalchuk is certainly debatable, but to call Parise "far better" just seems like a huge stretch. To this point, Kovalchuk has been one of the game's absolute elite players.
So why is Kovy a -30 this year with the Devils?

Kovy is overrated. Parise>>>>>>>Kovy

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Old
01-09-2011, 03:18 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Parise is better defensively, for sure, but I don't put a ton of stock into those +/- totals. Kovalchuk played his entire career in Atlanta...a far cry from the perennially successful NJD teams that Parise was fortunate enough to find himself on.

I think Parise vs. Kovalchuk is certainly debatable, but to call Parise "far better" just seems like a huge stretch. To this point, Kovalchuk has been one of the game's absolute elite players.
Elite goal scorer.... I see this now.

The guys game is so one dimensional it's mind boggeling. Even with his team in free fall he still is one dimensional offense.

He is a minus 30 after last night



In the past there were def games when he was on Atl that he would score a wicked goal and Id be like yeah that guy is the bomb, but I never really was wowed by his play other than the wicked shot.

Granted we get to see Parise way more often, but how many times have we all been like WOW for Parises 2nd- 3rd efforts on the puck. The PK skills, THE ENDLESS HUSTLE to go along with those 40 goals

Ultimately I guess it depends on a guys role and how the team was built to succeed but straight up I really like Parise over Kovalchuk even before this year.

You know Kovy had some other great players around him in Atl and it didn't work out there either. I know it's not a great hockey city but all those guys took off first chance they got...

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01-09-2011, 03:20 PM
  #109
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LOL, if you guys say so.

EDIT: I really don't want to defend Kovalchuk, so I won't. I just think you guys are off base saying that Parise is soooo much better than Kovalchuk. I'll leave it at that.


Last edited by nyr2k2: 01-09-2011 at 03:25 PM.
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01-09-2011, 03:21 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Age is the key word in his sentence.
Yeah and in the summer of 2012 Parise will be 27 going on 28. Kovalchuk was 27 this past summer.

Also I agree with nyr2k2. I don't know how you can say Parise is "much" better when Kovalchuk in six seasons put up 87, 98, 76, 87, 91, 85. You can certainly make the argument, but I don't think it is "unarguable" as LB states in his article.


Last edited by Stugots: 01-09-2011 at 03:27 PM.
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Old
01-09-2011, 04:38 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
LOL, if you guys say so.

EDIT: I really don't want to defend Kovalchuk, so I won't. I just think you guys are off base saying that Parise is soooo much better than Kovalchuk. I'll leave it at that.
I agree, Parise isnt' 'sooooooo much better' as people are saying, but I definitely feel he is better for our team. Defensively, and with his work ethic, Parise would be an absolutely perfect fit for the identity this team is building. Offensively, I would rate him a bit less than Kovalchuk. Kovalchuk has pure skill in the offensive zone, whereas Parise has to utilize his great work ethic to generate offense. I appreciate the hard work much more, and like I said, he would be an awesome fit on this team, but in terms of offense, Kovalchuk is just electric. He has a phenomenal shot, speed, hands, and size, making him an offensive force.

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01-11-2011, 01:14 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
LOL, if you guys say so.

EDIT: I really don't want to defend Kovalchuk, so I won't. I just think you guys are off base saying that Parise is soooo much better than Kovalchuk. I'll leave it at that.
Ok well, lets say that you could have either on Drurys $$$....

Kovy or Parise? and why?

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01-11-2011, 01:52 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Chariot View Post
Ok well, lets say that you could have either on Drurys $$$....

Kovy or Parise? and why?
Parise, and for me its not close.

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01-11-2011, 02:19 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chariot View Post
Ok well, lets say that you could have either on Drurys $$$....

Kovy or Parise? and why?
i'll bite.


Parise Pros :
-American born kid coming to a club that has a goods nucleus of American Born players.

-Work ethic I feel is better than Kovalchuk's

-Hockey Sense I feel is better than Kovalchuk's <--Parise isn't going to take himself off the ice everytime he plays against an agitator like Sean Avery. Especially not in a playoff game.

-Shattuck boy who grew up on the same fundamentals as a Derek Stepan did. Also, apparently has some ties or are at least friends as the duo worked out together in the offseason. Also played at UND, which is one of the top colliegate programs in the country. All this again means he learened the fundamentals the right way, and now executes.

-Future captain material

-Seems to have the moxy that is needed to excel under Tortorella.

-Already plays nearby...Life in NYC should be a relative easy adjustment.

-The complete package


Parise Cons :
-Ex Devil

-Coming off knee injury


Kovalchuk Pro's :
- PP Specialist

- Wicked shot

- Better goal scorer evidenced by his last three years. Averaging 42g per season. Parise averaged 38g. over the past 3.

Kovalchuk Cons :
- Offensive stud, defensive liability. Maybe a little one dimensional.

- Hockey smarts in question

- Who shows up late for practices after getting a 100 Million dollar payday?

- Gets thrown off his game when things don't go his way

- Contract

- Question if he is a Torts kind of player.

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01-11-2011, 02:39 PM
  #115
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There's this concept that some of you guys need to understand. Not every single player on the team has to be a two-way force. In fact, if you build a team the right way, you can afford to have 1 or 2 guys who don't have to concentrate on defense. There are players who are so good offensively, it doesn't make sense for them to waste energy on the minor defensive help they can provide when instead, they can focus on providing offense. If my team is built correctly, I don't have a problem with my top goalscorer floating at the blueline. That's how you get a bunch of easy goals throughout the season, especially when you consider that a lot of the time, a player like Kovalchuk will be matched up on the ice with a defensive minded defenseman that isn't a big offensive threat.

Do you really want to see a 40 goal scorer get lost to injury because he blocked a shot, or because of a scrum in the corners? Parise is a great, great player, and certainly no worse than Kovalchuk. But it's absurd to suggest that a top 4-5 goalscorer in the league is much worse than Parise.

And Kovalchuk managed to score quite a bit when he was playing with talent in Atlanta and when he wasn't. He's still, to this day, yet to spend a single season of his career on what I would term a "good" team. The one year the Thrashers made the playoffs, they still sucked. They were on top of the league's worst division.

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01-11-2011, 03:04 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
There's this concept that some of you guys need to understand. Not every single player on the team has to be a two-way force. In fact, if you build a team the right way, you can afford to have 1 or 2 guys who don't have to concentrate on defense. There are players who are so good offensively, it doesn't make sense for them to waste energy on the minor defensive help they can provide when instead, they can focus on providing offense. If my team is built correctly, I don't have a problem with my top goalscorer floating at the blueline. That's how you get a bunch of easy goals throughout the season, especially when you consider that a lot of the time, a player like Kovalchuk will be matched up on the ice with a defensive minded defenseman that isn't a big offensive threat.

Do you really want to see a 40 goal scorer get lost to injury because he blocked a shot, or because of a scrum in the corners? Parise is a great, great player, and certainly no worse than Kovalchuk. But it's absurd to suggest that a top 4-5 goalscorer in the league is much worse than Parise.

And Kovalchuk managed to score quite a bit when he was playing with talent in Atlanta and when he wasn't. He's still, to this day, yet to spend a single season of his career on what I would term a "good" team. The one year the Thrashers made the playoffs, they still sucked. They were on top of the league's worst division.
I think that argument would hold more water if the goal differential was greater than it is. Fact is, over the past three seasons Kovy has only scored 11 more goals than Parise. 126 to 115. So while Kovy does win in the goal race, Parise himself is almost on pace for the same totals. So, if you can have a player with nearly the same offensive output, who is also defensivley responsible woudn't that be considered a more complete package?

Plus...Where Kovy was on a losing club he was also centered by Savard. I think he also played the opposite wing as Heatley as well. He was in good company.

Parise had who Gionta and Zajac? Maybe Langenbrunner?

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01-11-2011, 03:12 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Lion Hound View Post
I think that argument would hold more water if the goal differential was greater than it is. Fact is, over the past three seasons Kovy has only scored 11 more goals than Parise. 126 to 115. So while Kovy does win in the goal race, Parise himself is almost on pace for the same totals. So, if you can have a player with nearly the same offensive output, who is also defensivley responsible woudn't that be considered a more complete package?

Plus...Where Kovy was on a losing club he was also centered by Savard. I think he also played the opposite wing as Heatley as well. He was in good company.

Parise had who Gionta and Zajac? Maybe Langenbrunner?
Only 11 more goals...on horrible teams. Don't discount the effect that a solid team defense can have in generating scoring chances. Heck, just from a time of puck possession standpoint.

Savard only spent ONE complete season in Atlanta. He was injured for half of another and traded there halfway through his first. In 08-09, Kovalchuk was often centered by Todd White. He scored 43 goals and 91 points.

Kovalchuk and Heatley were only occasionally on the same line. Same goes for Hossa.

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01-11-2011, 03:35 PM
  #118
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Only 11 more goals...on horrible teams. Don't discount the effect that a solid team defense can have in generating scoring chances. Heck, just from a time of puck possession standpoint.

Savard only spent ONE complete season in Atlanta. He was injured for half of another and traded there halfway through his first. In 08-09, Kovalchuk was often centered by Todd White. He scored 43 goals and 91 points.

Kovalchuk and Heatley were only occasionally on the same line. Same goes for Hossa.
Also on horrible teams meant there was no shortage of icetime either. So while the team as a whole failed, he still had some good company to play with. The White year was impressive. That a solid season, but after that he did have some other very good people to play with.

But...that should be another point. On teams loaded with guys like Savard, Hossa, Kozlov, Bondra why couldn't they ever get over the hump? Maybe the bigger issue is can he be a difference maker? Yeah, we know he can score. But who is the better player for the benefit of the whole team itself?

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01-11-2011, 04:49 PM
  #119
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I'd take him at 5 years 7.5 million. Buy out Drury. Cap is reportedly going up by 3 million..

Parise (7.5) Dubinsky (4.0) Gaborik (7.5)
Wolski (3.8) Stepan (875k) Callahan (2.3)
Zuccarello (1.75) Anisimov (3.0) Kreider (900k)
Prust (900k) Boyle (1.8) Boogaard (1.65)
Drury Buyout (3.3)

Staal (3.9) Girardi (3.35)
Eminger (1.5) Del Zotto (1.1)
Sauer (1.0) McDonagh or UFA vet (1.3)


Henke (6.85)
Biron (875k)

Haven't done the math but I'm sure it works

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