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The Official Ex-Habs Thread Part II(All Former Habs Players Discussed Here!)

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Old
01-09-2011, 01:15 PM
  #151
Plante
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Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
Maybe if this organization referred to the past they wouldn't continue to make the same mistakes.

"Oh, we don't need D'Agostini"
"Oh, we don't need Grabovsky"
"Oh, we don't need Sergei"
"Oh, we don't need O'Byrne"

Hello? We can't generate any offense! put D'Ago, Grabo and Sergei on the roster and their goals and point totals would put them in the top 5 in every offensive category.

Hindsight is 20/20... But you can't deny that the Habs have problems developing players.

We've seen how Martin essentially tried to break Subban and put a leash on him. We also saw how he paired him with an AHLer and then blamed the teams woes on him. Funny how when he plays with Hamr and Gill, he's a completely diff player. Took the coach half a season to realize that. Patches completely lost his confidence, again cuz of questionable coaching decisions. And now we have the latest project...Lars Eller who has a couple points more than he had with the Blues but in 4x as many games. Player development is a big issue here...just look at the roster. LOL.

Now if "pressure" is such an issue, why don't the Habs do something about it? Why do the Yankees, Red Sox, Patriots, Cowboys, Lakers etc... not have as many issues with young players as the Habs? And don't even tell me Hab players deal with more pressure.

Excuse after excuse after excuse. You don't get tired of always finding ways to defend the team when they're clearly in the wrong?
I think we've been there.

O but if we let them developed here they would have turned into the same type of players!!!


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01-09-2011, 01:20 PM
  #152
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I think we've been there.

O but if we let them developed here they would have turned into the same type of players!!!

We saw flashes from all of these players...so stop it.

The key is to NOT put an offensive player on the frigging bottom line and expect him to somehow find his game. You don't do that with a player that's just getting into the league. You also don't try to turn a gifted offensive player into a two-way player.

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01-09-2011, 01:23 PM
  #153
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D'Ago still ends up playing a whole lot of 14-15 minutes a game....not what you'd expect from a 1st liner. And in the end, if he succeeds playing in the 1st line like you are saying, well with the return of Oshie, Perron and McDonald, chances are that he could get a sniff of the 2nd line. So he still could have those stats.

SK digging his own grave doing what....You mean that the reports we laughed at when it happened were finally true? How do you know that? And he threatened to go to the KHL? Where the heck do you take this from? Again, it's just laughable how every report pre-trade is always stupid and untrue and suddenly all the reports post-trade are suddenly true...He made 1 mistake. Not wanting to report. But he felt he got screwed in the process and was mad about it. And frankly he is proving how wrong we were like he knew we were. Strangely, when he decided to go, Boucher had no problems with him. SKost by himself asked Boucher to look at some videos to see the areas to improve....clealry not what a "cancer" or a "grave digger" would do....Habs couldn't do nothing? Strangely, there's a lot of posters here who mentions who tough it is to play in this terrible city.....So how about a little acknowledgment by this great org. and surround them better?

Oh and Ribeiro is suppose to have a work ethic problem....says who? And even if it would be true, you know that Price had a terrible attitude and work ethic also? You know that some are starting to mention that Cammy is not a great team player....you know that some mention that AKost is a lazy player with a terrible work ethic and do I need to go on? So what do we do? Not work with them and ship them all out, and get close to nothing each and every team? How the heck are you suppose to be able to build a team if you continuously do that?

Oh and it happens to every team??? You mean that many players? And you're mentioning Detroit on top of that, but you know what Detroit has we don't in the past 17 years? 4 Cups, 2 Lost in Finals and TREMENDOUS regular seasons which was really fun to watch. Please don't compare them to us. Even if they lose a couple of guys in the process, they are still on top of the league and they have the history they don't that makes up for it. Detroit has 10 more points than us as we speak. The only reason why we battle for the top spot in our division is because of how weak it is. Take the points we have, note that we play in the Eastern conf, acknowledge how weak it is compared to the other especially this year, and understand that we are far from being Detroit even if they ended up losing Leino.....

If in the end, we end up a better team by any types of miracles, whatever we're losing, well it would still suck but not as much. But when you're continuously a bubble team, any losses are important ones. But hey, I guess it helps to compare ourselves to the worst....I keep reading that it could be worst, we could be the Leafs....how reassuring....
He can play all the 13-14 minute games he wants. Hes also playing on a line with David Backes. So you have D'agostini in our line up other than who on the top 3 lines? The only one that is close is Pouliot. You can like these players all you want but im not even going to blink at the prospect of Losing Matt ****ing D'agostini for nothing.

SK did dig his own grave. Why do you think 2 coaches had a problem with him? Why do you think in Training Camp Carbo said Sergei was acting like a 10 year vet? Why do you think Martin made an example out of him in training camp? Why do you think he sent him down to begin the season and wouldn't even keep him around for the team bonding? Why do you think Carey Price called him out when he left Practice Early? YEAH he did dig his own grave. It was pretty obvious. I'm not going to even go into the reports of him missing the team bus to quebec city, him having a talk with Bob Gainey when he wouldn't report to hamilton right away because those might not be true, but when coaches and players call you out... You act as if the team had some made up vendetta against the kid. Why do you think those reports are out there? I'm not saying that every negative report on Sergie was true, but when theres a theme....

The stars were thinking of trading Ribs a year or two ago according To lebrun because of his work ethic. It was on Hotstove im not going to go look for the video. Believe me if you want I could care less.

It just seems ridiculous that people are crying over players like SK and D'agostini. When they fail to see that they are getting roles on their new teams that they don't have a shot to have on our team. Who are we playing D'agostini over in our top 6? Patches or Ak? Cammy? Gionta? Same goes for sk. Ribeiro was traded yeah, but then Tomas Plekanec developed into a really solid player when he got more time in ribeiro's leaving. I'm the last thing from a guy that is in love with the habs player development and coaching but when people start to whine about losing some depth players that would have a hard time cracking our top 9 I don't care. Especially the players that did nothing to help themselves when they were here like SK.


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Old
01-09-2011, 01:49 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
Okay, so let me ask you.

If you are coaching a team and you have a skilled offensive player who constantly misses the coaching assignments you give him, and constantly messes up his defensive assignments, to the point where he is outright not doing what he's expected, but he's a skilled player and considered a player to your future, do you ignore that stuff and still play him?

That's what the Sergei Kostitsyn situation was.

I prefer a coach to consider team needs NOW instead of in the future. I don't want to sit around and wait for Sergei Kostitsyn to become a better all-around player. If he's not going to listen, he doesn't belong on THE TEAM. There's a reason why a sophomore like Tom Pyatt sticks around. He listens to the coach. He does everything asked of him. Until you buy into the team, you stay on the fringe.
Here's a crazy insane thought, how about WORKING with your ''troubled'' players like Sergei.
I'm not talking about simply giving him assignments and making him work on some drills during practice, but have a very tight leash on him and pay extra attention.
If you are going to be unidimensional in your coaching and treatments towards players, you will lose a good bunch of them.
Not every player respond the same way to the same coaching methods, just like you can't get along with everybody in this world.
When you were in school during elementary or high school, were you friends with everybody in class and respect the teacher???..Of course not.
It's only normal that Martin will socially get along better with the veterans, with families. They are more mature and have more in common than say, a young 20yo that is a new famous millionaire in Mtl with a love for women and partying.
But that isn't what's important. What matters is that, as a coach, you get along with all your players and it's not because you're different that you can't.

So Sergei had problems other players don't have, this means you have to disregard his skills as well as what they could bring and just ship him out??..No, you should see it as a personal assignment to work with this kid. Speak with him honestly, see what the problem is, talk about his personal life, connect with the damn freaking kid. Don't shut him out and be hard on him. That's a recipe for disaster, and well, with hindsight, it's exactly what happened.

You can say the same with Lats and he wasn't as bad as Sergei.
And it doesn't have to only be the coaches job, it can be an assistant or even the GM. As long as the coach agrees with the assignment and won't punish the kid.

But what about the other ones that didn't have attitude problems like O'Byrne, Chipper, D'Ago, Lappy??..
Lappy was a key player during the POs last year. A lot of people will overlook some of Gill's brain farts during the season because he was huge for us in the post-season, but the same should go for Lappy. People only focus on the obvious heroes like Cammy and Halak, or even Gorges and Gill, but Lappy and Moore played a very key role in the first two rounds.

If we don't improve with our youngsters, we will lose most of our prospects.

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Old
01-09-2011, 02:02 PM
  #155
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Here's a crazy insane thought, how about WORKING with your ''troubled'' players like Sergei.
I'm not talking about simply giving him assignments and making him work on some drills during practice, but have a very tight leash on him and pay extra attention.
If you are going to be unidimensional in your coaching and treatments towards players, you will lose a good bunch of them.
Not every player respond the same way to the same coaching methods, just like you can't get along with everybody in this world.
When you were in school during elementary or high school, were you friends with everybody in class and respect the teacher???..Of course not.
It's only normal that Martin will socially get along better with the veterans, with families. They are more mature and have more in common than say, a young 20yo that is a new famous millionaire in Mtl with a love for women and partying.
But that isn't what's important. What matters is that, as a coach, you get along with all your players and it's not because you're different that you can't.

So Sergei had problems other players don't have, this means you have to disregard his skills as well as what they could bring and just ship him out??..No, you should see it as a personal assignment to work with this kid. Speak with him honestly, see what the problem is, talk about his personal life, connect with the damn freaking kid. Don't shut him out and be hard on him. That's a recipe for disaster, and well, with hindsight, it's exactly what happened.

You can say the same with Lats and he wasn't as bad as Sergei.
And it doesn't have to only be the coaches job, it can be an assistant or even the GM. As long as the coach agrees with the assignment and won't punish the kid.

But what about the other ones that didn't have attitude problems like O'Byrne, Chipper, D'Ago, Lappy??..
Lappy was a key player during the POs last year. A lot of people will overlook some of Gill's brain farts during the season because he was huge for us in the post-season, but the same should go for Lappy. People only focus on the obvious heroes like Cammy and Halak, or even Gorges and Gill, but Lappy and Moore played a very key role in the first two rounds.

If we don't improve with our youngsters, we will lose most of our prospects.
Wow, we agree on something

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01-09-2011, 02:05 PM
  #156
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So you have D'agostini in our line up other than who on the top 3 lines? The only one that is close is Pouliot. You can like these players all you want but im not even going to blink at the prospect of Losing Matt ****ing D'agostini for nothing.

SK did dig his own grave. Why do you think 2 coaches had a problem with him? Why do you think in Training Camp Carbo said Sergei was acting like a 10 year vet? Why do you think Martin made an example out of him in training camp? Why do you think he sent him down to begin the season and wouldn't even keep him around for the team bonding? Why do you think Carey Price called him out when he left Practice Early? YEAH he did dig his own grave. It was pretty obvious. I'm not going to even go into the reports of him missing the team bus to quebec city, him having a talk with Bob Gainey when he wouldn't report to hamilton right away because those might not be true, but when coaches and players call you out... You act as if the team had some made up vendetta against the kid. Why do you think those reports are out there? I'm not saying that every negative report on Sergie was true, but when theres a theme....

The stars were thinking of trading Ribs a year or two ago according To lebrun because of his work ethic. It was on Hotstove im not going to go look for the video. Believe me if you want I could care less.

It just seems ridiculous that people are crying over players like SK and D'agostini. When they fail to see that they are getting roles on their new teams that they don't have a shot to have on our team. Who are we playing D'agostini over in our top 6? Patches or Ak? Cammy? Gionta? Same goes for sk. Ribeiro was traded yeah, but then Tomas Plekanec developed into a really solid player when he got more time in ribeiro's leaving. I'm the last thing from a guy that is in love with the habs player development and coaching but when people start to whine about losing some depth players that would have a hard time cracking our top 9 I don't care. Especially the players that did nothing to help themselves when they were here like SK.
So who cares about Pouliot? Is he himself the king of work ethic? And even if we'd cared about the top 6 anyway 'cause at one point the idea of this team is to have a top offensive 9 anyway? Why wouldn't you have either of MaxPac and D'Ago on the top 9? And when AKost isn't performing, how about having a player that could actually take a top 6 instead of going with Moen or Pyatt like we saw and still see from time to time? You do know that we just NOW found a top 6 member in MaxPac. How about having D'Agostini on the 2nd line and have MaxPac playing with Desharnais on the 3rd?

Yeah, and the them about SKost was a lack of maturity. But he still didn't kill anybody. He still proved in one playoff that he had the talent to shine. He still had proved prior to that that was a possibility he could be a more complete player than his bro. So once you're called out, you're done? See I hear the same report about Subban...when is he leaving? Yet, that freakin punk SK, once again, worked well with Boucher who had nothing bad to say against him. See the video example given not so long ago. Yeah, it's harder with some guys...boohoo. Work harder to make it work. Adjust your communication for them. Play with their strengths. But not here. Not with Martin. System first. Not only first but ONLY the system. 'Cause it's been proven how great it works especially in the playoffs.....Martin is so great that NOBODY thought about him when we were looking for a coach. But now that he is, is the greatest invention. Great, I'll remember that the day he's fired.....but I guess THEN, we'll hear how HE was the cancer after all....

Oh and Ribeiro ALMOST was traded....come on. Was he? So is 300 players in the league, ask Eklund. And again, it all comes down to being human beings but at one point, if you still deliver on the ice, what's the problems honestly. Oh it is a problem 'cause the room might not have chemistry....geez people didn't I hear EVERY SINGLE YEAR how it's the best chemistry ever? And even if it wasn't, isn't possible that in the best chemistry ever, there are a couple of guys within the dressing room that don't hang out too much and don't talk a lot to each other? Who freakin cares, bring it when it counts and not on the plane playing cards or something....See I hear that Cammy is not the best team player....who cares if he scores a couple right? We hear how Subban is cocky and isn't the most liked guy in the room....who cared about that yesterday?

But then you go back in history and wonder who they would replace? Would we have to sign those guys at a ridiculous price if we would have developed some of those players? Oh and Pleks develop properly 'cause Ribs wasn't here.....How about you have 3 offensive lines in place and then when it's time, if you absolutely have to deal one or the other, you deal one that ends up having some kind value. How about dealing when you actually have the advantage over the other or is that a concept we don't know 'cause we're not too familiar with it.....

Incredibly enough, any of those kids wouldn't have a role on our team. Again, I hear some of you talk and I think my team are the Wings. We seem to be way too good for any of those guys, yet, we're always fighting for a playoff spot.

You don't care? Couldn't care less either. Unfortunately I care that it was a freakin big thing that we've reached the 3rd round last year. Incredible enough since it's the best we did in 17 years. Unfortuntely, I care about winning. I care about the present but I also care about the future, about what this league is all about with the cap and all. I'm actually whining 'cause I can. It's no hindsight as far as I'm concered 'cause I've been behind those guys with talent the day they were drafted.....to the day they played for their respective teams, to the pros and to where they are right now. Yes, they are their faults. They're freakin human beings with their ups and downs. But so is the organization. And the day they stopped thinking like you and others with their "Addition by substraction" theory, that's the day when the'll start to be accountable for their actions.

Freakin "They would have never worked here"...do people really actually believe that? Who works here anyway then? How's everybody stats right now this year compared to last year?

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01-09-2011, 02:31 PM
  #157
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So who cares about Pouliot? Is he himself the king of work ethic? And even if we'd cared about the top 6 anyway 'cause at one point the idea of this team is to have a top offensive 9 anyway? Why wouldn't you have either of MaxPac and D'Ago on the top 9? And when AKost isn't performing, how about having a player that could actually take a top 6 instead of going with Moen or Pyatt like we saw and still see from time to time? But then, who knows that if he was given the proper chance and time to develop, who knows if we would have need to pay those UFA we had no choice of paying? You do know that we just NOW found a top 6 member in MaxPac. How about having D'Agostini on the 2nd line and have MaxPac playing with Desharnais on the 3rd?

Yeah, and the them about SKost was a lack of maturity. But he still didn't kill anybody. He still proved in one playoff that he had the talent to shine. He still had proved prior to that that was a possibility he could be a more complete player than his bro. So once you're called out, you're done? See I hear the same report about Subban...when is he leaving? Yet, that freakin punk SK, once again, worked well with Boucher who had nothing bad to say against him. See the video example given not so long ago. Yeah, it's harder with some guys...boohoo. Work harder to make it work. Adjust your communication for them. Play with their strengths. But not here. Not with Martin. System first. Not only first but ONLY the system. 'Cause it's been proven how great it works especially in the playoffs.....Martin is so great that NOBODY thought about him when we were looking for a coach. But now that he is, is the greatest invention. Great, I'll remember that the day he's fired.....but I guess THEN, we'll hear how HE was the cancer after all....

Oh and Ribeiro ALMOST was traded....come on. Was he? So is 300 players in the league, ask Eklund. And again, it all comes down to being human beings but at one point, if you still deliver on the ice, what's the problems honestly. Oh it is a problem 'cause the room might not have chemistry....geez people didn't I hear EVERY SINGLE YEAR how it's the best chemistry ever? And even if it wasn't, isn't possible that in the best chemistry ever, there are a couple of guys within the dressing room that don't hang out too much and don't talk a lot to each other? Who freakin cares, bring it when it counts and not on the plane playing cards or something....See I hear that Cammy is not the best team player....who cares if he scores a couple right? We hear how Subban is cocky and isn't the most liked guy in the room....who cared about that yesterday?

But then you go back in history and wonder who they would replace? Would we have to sign those guys at a ridiculous price if we would have developed some of those players? Oh and Pleks develop properly 'cause Ribs wasn't here.....How about you have 3 offensive lines in place and then when it's time, if you absolutely have to deal one or the other, you deal one that ends up having some kind value. How about dealing when you actually have the advantage over the other or is that a concept we don't know 'cause we're not too familiar with it.....

Incredibly enough, any of those kids wouldn't have a role on our team. Again, I hear some of you talk and I think my team are the Wings. We seem to be way too good for any of those guys, yet, we're always fighting for a playoff spot.

You don't care? Couldn't care less either. Unfortunately I care that it was a freakin big thing that we've reached the 3rd round last year. Incredible enough since it's the best we did in 17 years. Unfortuntely, I care about winning. I care about the present but I also care about the future, about what this league is all about with the cap and all. I'm actually whining 'cause I can. It's no hindsight as far as I'm concered 'cause I've been behind those guys with talent the day they were drafted.....to the day they played for their respective teams, to the pros and to where they are right now. Yes, they are their faults. They're freakin human beings with their ups and downs. But so is the organization. And the day they stopped thinking like you and others with their "Addition by substraction" theory, that's the day when the'll start to be accountable for their actions.

Freakin "They would have never worked here"...do people really actually believe that? Who works here anyway then? How's everybody stats right now this year compared to last year?
I agree with having an offensive top 9, but again who does D'agostini take the place of in the top 9? Pouliot or Darche? I would keep darche Because he is the only one on our damn team that goes to the net constantly. So then its a toss up between Pouliot or D'agostini, again im not losing sleep over that one, either or to me. Sk I would take over them no problem but he never won over JM.

I understand that these players are human. But theres a line to everything and you can't cross it. I can't go to my work and take a big dump on my bosses desk and ask for a raise, then cry that I got fired. If I somehow get brought back I need to grab the opportunity, I can't start leaving work early. Montreal Gave Sergei chances. They didn't leave him in the minors all year like some wanted. They brought him back up. They GAVE him a second chance, what does he do? he leaves practice early when the scratches are supposed to stay on and then Carey Price calls him out, in the playoffs when everyone should be pulling in the same direction. How many chances does the kid get? Did he get enough, im not sure, but it seemed like he was given an opportunity.

As for the Ribeiro thing, its was Lebrun not Eklund. Lebrun is pretty respected and doesn't just throw **** to see if it sticks.

I'm not the biggest martin fan either, Hell I despise him. But I think Blaming him or The Managment for SK's downfall is wrong. Did they help? Absolutely not but At one point you have to grow up. And don't Compare Subban to sergei, he isn't pulling half the **** Sergie was.

Is this orginization perfect? No, far far far from it. But I think when we start to criticize them for moving players like Matt D'agostini we are going overboard. Sergie, I loved him as a player but when you burn that many bridges, theres no bridge to get back.

I view most of them as Depth players, Dime a dozen. If your trying to get acclimated to the cap be ready to see most of your role players get interchanged.

Yeah so what, I don't care that we lost D'agostini or SK, Sue me, doesn't mean I dont love this team either. I think this team has much bigger needs then some depth players that caused headaches. I don't agree with every move, but those? I honestly don't see much wrong. Its convienient however that we bring this up once hes on a hot streak, people can comeback and talk to me when he cools down, or he might not and then I will say I was wrong, but right now I think the whole org is ok with the decision and so am I.

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01-09-2011, 02:39 PM
  #158
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lol D'agostini....

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01-09-2011, 03:13 PM
  #159
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So, 6 games suspension for Kosto.

good decision, well deserved.



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01-09-2011, 03:50 PM
  #160
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I agree with having an offensive top 9, but again who does D'agostini take the place of in the top 9? Pouliot or Darche? I would keep darche Because he is the only one on our damn team that goes to the net constantly. So then its a toss up between Pouliot or D'agostini, again im not losing sleep over that one, either or to me. Sk I would take over them no problem but he never won over JM.
Pretty sure that if you read the entire idea of this discussion, it's not about D'Agostini. It's about the several players we let go based on 2 things. Supposed bad attitude and inability to work within THE SYSTEM. And like I mentioned, while players have to be accountable for their actions, so is this org. when clearly it's not only 1 or 2 bad apples but several ones. Add to that the fact that Eller is surely extremely unhappy as to how he is used. Words say how Cammy is also unhappy as to how things are going. Needless to say AKost has to be unhappy based on what Pleks said about him and based on how we already know what his coach thinks of him.....I'd say that Subban probably feels the same way based on the fact that one day, he's a rotten apple, the other day he's the most used d-man etc.....And that's not knowing all the other stuff that is going around. So again, yes people are unhappy. But people react differently. But mostly, some are proving elsewhere that they had all the reasons in the world to be unhappy. The only thing they would have needed is probably a little more communication and some chance to prove themselves. Like the 30 games MaxPac got playing as a top 6 before they finally realized he wasn't ready. Or what Moen got 'cause actually they had no other guy to put there since they were all gone....That's what happens when you get rid of your talented players, you end up with pluggers on a top 6 that have no clue what to do and while they move their feet pretty fast and are soldiers of the system, brings nothing to do the team anyway since they are not in their role.

So have somebody you'll have to work harder to make them believe in you and your system but has some talent to show for or have somebody that already believes in you but won't change a thing based on their lack of talent? I did read that some prefers the guys that are going 100% all the time despite their talent level....well so be it. Since it has been the motto of this organization for so many years, I guess it's fun to battle for a playoffs spot...I guess it's our own cup run.....

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01-09-2011, 05:19 PM
  #161
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Sergei Kostitsyn has more goals than his brother

Sergei Kostitsyn has 11 goals and 23 points on the season.

Andrei Kostitsyn has 10 goals and 23 points on the season.

Anyone else a little surprised?

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01-09-2011, 05:30 PM
  #162
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Sergei Kostitsyn has 11 goals and 23 points on the season.

Andrei Kostitsyn has 10 goals and 23 points on the season.

Anyone else a little surprised?
Out of Andrei, Sergei, Grabovski, the best player while of the three while all on the Canadiens was Andrei. Now that Sergei, Grabovski and Andrei are all on seperate teams, the worst player of the three is Andrei.

lol. Just something I noticed today. I really do think it's the system and mentality of the Canadiens that limits players' output in terms of offensive numbers. It's no secret that players are asked to sacrifice their offensive capabilities in order to play a more conservative game. This was confirmed by Plekanec when he mentioned that Martin asked him to concentrate more on the defensive side of the game rather than the offensive side(during the playoffs). So I wouldn't be surprised if Martin asks for Andrei to limit the risky plays and turnovers. Andrei's creativity doesn't seem to be on par as his first two-seasons with the habs. To me he looks like a guy who doesn't want to make many mistakes. Actually this last point looks to be the case for many of the players who are not vets(Weber, Subban, Pacioretty, Pouliot, Eller, Andrei, suprisingly all guys who play on offensive game first).

I expect Andrei's stats to be completely different once he is longer a part of this team(which is inevitable). He'll play for a team that will make him focus less on the defensive aspect of the game and more on the offensive.


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01-09-2011, 05:48 PM
  #163
Richiebottles
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That's what i hate about JM system . If is to defensive . We could be scoring a lot of goals but we don't use the players to there full potential.

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01-09-2011, 06:01 PM
  #164
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the thing I don't get is if he had such behavior/maturity issues, how come S.Kost seems to be having no trouble "getting along" with Trotz?

By the time we traded him, it was clear that he had to go, and the fact that we got nothing in return was to be somewhat expected. But many of us could see that he had the potential to be a very solid everyday NHLer, and had trouble understanding why he so often got the short end of the stick as far as toi/roster opportunities under Martin.

is it just a matter of him smartening up and realizing he needed to dial down the attitude after being traded for waiver fodder?

or is it possible that the seemingly reoccurring issues with young players has to do with the way Martin (or perhaps the organization as a whole) handles them?


i tend to think, based on the same outside observations we are all privy to, that Martin isn't very well suited, his temperament and methods, to deal with the "modern" young NHLer. Things are always changing, but I'd argue that the experience of a kid growing up in mid-90's - now is exponentially different than the experience of kids growing up in the 70's/80's.

the internet age has vastly changed how kids experience and see the world, and being able to effectively connect with young athletes from that generation is perhaps a challenge he isn't up to meeting...

Habs brass needs to be cognizant of this, and I hope it forms a big part of his evaluation. Can't afford to let talented young players like that slip through our fingers for nothing, not in the cap era!

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01-09-2011, 06:28 PM
  #165
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the thing I don't get is if he had such behavior/maturity issues, how come S.Kost seems to be having no trouble "getting along" with Trotz?
Well you will be told that the fact that was traded made him understand that he had to behave.... To which I'm saying, well an incredible cancer like some would like us to believe he was, it takes more than 1 trade to suddenly behave, be nice and do exactly what you're told to do. And especially in SK case, if he was suppose to have brought the KHL into this, why would he care that it worked in the NHL anyway?

Seems that some people clearly don't remember the Sergei Kostitsyn that was once called as much better than his bro. Do people remember THE thread. You know the thread that was asking the following question...."Which do you prefer? Getzlaf or Sergei and Andrei Kostitsyn?" 'Cause some were totally convinced that it was worth it to take Andrei 'cause it made us take Sergei (which makes no sense but let's pretend it does...). Why would people not only create that thread but there were also a lot of people agreeing with it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldplay View Post
Sergei Kostitsyn has 11 goals and 23 points on the season.

Andrei Kostitsyn has 10 goals and 23 points on the season.

Anyone else a little surprised?
Based on the player? Maybe. I know that personnally, my bet was that Andrei would have been the best scorer, while Sergei would have been the best passer. I did predict when we had both that Sergei would one day have the most points out of the 2.

Based on the system...obviously not. Who's surpassing their numbers this year? Oh right...only Andrei is. Everybody else is under it. But Martin said it himself, the guy is playing for a contract....By the way, did Andrei already sign him contract? 'Cause he's not producing as much....

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01-09-2011, 06:34 PM
  #166
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Whitesnake, it's quite clear that the players who play an offensive game first have the most trouble in Montreal and that the ones who do succeed are those who already have a decent two-way game(aside from Sergei).

Montreal is so obsessed with teaching players to be two-way players first that it seems to stifle whatever creativity they have or it just puts off the development of their offensive game. Sadly, by the time they learn the defensive side of the game, most of these players become completely discouaged and lose all their confidence.

Montreal should stop looking at drafting one dimensional offensive players if they are really stressing the two-way game. Latendresse, Andrei, Pouliot, Grabovski and D'agostini all fell under the former category and have all been used as scapegoats. In the case of Sergei, you had a player who wanted to express himself offensively, but was told to play and was limited to a defensive role.

Montreal should be drafting more players like Pacioretty, Eller, Leblanc etc because it just saves the team a headache of completely changing a player's nature around. In the case of the former two(Eller and Pacioretty) it's more of an experience and development thing rather than teaching them aspects of the game they are not accustomed to.(You could add Desharnais to this list of two-way players falling under good favor with the management).

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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Based on the player? Maybe. I know that personnally, my bet was that Andrei would have been the best scorer, while Sergei would have been the best passer. I did predict when we had both that Sergei would one day have the most points out of the 2.

Based on the system...obviously not. Who's surpassing their numbers this year? Oh right...only Andrei is. Everybody else is under it. But Martin said it himself, the guy is playing for a contract....By the way, did Andrei already sign him contract? 'Cause he's not producing as much....:sarcasm:
What's funny about that is that Andrei completely slowed down after than comment. Andrei looks like the type of player who is just fragile mentally and this isn't the first time that he disappear's after being "made fun of" in the media. Not only that, Andrei the next game was put down to play with Gomez and....MOEN. How would you feel as a player, that just screams that your coach has zero faith and you and is saying that your play is a matter of circumstance rather than talent and will.

I defended Martin because he brought the Canadiens a system, something we were lacking for the longest time, but his attitude with younger players, or players who play a certain type of game is just brutal. There is no excuses for some of the moves he makes. I love certain aspects of his coaching(his system, his line matching etc), but I hate his player rapport.

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01-09-2011, 06:39 PM
  #167
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Right now the cancer of this team is Martin. His system is so defensive that it neutralizes all creativity from our offensive players. I don't like the way Eller has been used and hopefully they don't give up on him next year.

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01-09-2011, 06:43 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
Whitesnake, it's quite clear that the players who play an offensive game first have the most trouble in Montreal and that the ones who do succeed are those who already have a decent two-way game(aside from Sergei).

Montreal is so obsessed with teaching players to be two-way players first that it seems to stifle whatever creativity they have or it just puts off the development of their offensive game. Sadly, by the time they learn the defensive side of the game, most of these players become completely discouaged and lose all their confidence.

Montreal should stop looking at drafting one dimensional offensive players if they are really stressing the two-way game. Latendresse, Andrei, Pouliot, Grabovski and D'agostini all fell under the former category and have all been used as scapegoats. In the case of Sergei, you had a player who wanted to express himself offensively, but was told to play and was limited to a defensive role.

Montreal should be drafting more players like Pacioretty, Eller, Leblanc etc because it just saves the team a headache of completely changing a player's nature around. In the case of the former two(Eller and Pacioretty) it's more of an experience and development thing rather than teaching them aspects of the game they are not accustomed to.(You could add Desharnais to this list of two-way players falling under good favor with the management).
I get what you're saying and for the most part agree, except for the part of drafting players Like Pac, Eller, Leblanc ect most of which I have no problem with, but I think if we ever decide to go down the road of drafting lower ceiling 2 way players over the higher ceiling scorers we will not only continue to struggle in this area, but we will no longer have any young, top flight players to mishandle. The drafting ect is fine. We need to work on their development. I know you're not putting this idea as your opinion, but just an explanation if management continues on their current path. I believe JM is a large part of the problem. Many of these players have been scapegoated and shipped away since his arrival, however, Gauthier has to recognize this and either get rid of Martin or not give into his stubborn ways, because ultimately he is responsilbe for the habs roster.

I'd like to add I don't know if it's just our perception as fans, but it seems like JM has more control/influence as a coach on roster decisions than any coach I remember. It's like he knows something about PG's mother.


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01-09-2011, 06:46 PM
  #169
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I get what you're saying and for the most part agree, except for the part of drafting players Like Pac, Eller, Leblanc ect most of which I have no problem with, but I think if we ever decide to go down the road of drafting lower ceiling 2 way players over the higher ceiling scorers we will not only continue to struggle in this area, but we will no longer have any young top flight players to mishandle. The drafting ect is
You're right, but the thing I was trying to get at is this: If they insist on trying to round the game of players who's nature is to play an offensive game, they would save a lot of time and a lot of headaches in just pursuing two-way players. It truly is fustrating seeing these players like Latendresse, Andrei, Pouliot, Sergei, D'agotini, all guys you know can be true top 6 players, but are limited because they are forced to put aside the part of the game the excell at in order to play a game that they would be, at best, mediocre at. When you force the latter(limiting their offensive capabilities so that they can be more defensively responsible, which almost never works out) on the player, you just can an ineffective player at both ends of the ice.

I doubt that anyone would have a problem with Andrei's defensive game if he was putting up 30g and 30a. Cammalleri is proof of that. So long as he produces, no one cares that his defensive game is as bad as Andrei's. The point is, let players excel at areas of the game that they know they can perform instead of turning them into ineffective players which are subsequently scapegoated by fans and coaches.

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01-09-2011, 07:10 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Coldplay View Post
Sergei Kostitsyn has 11 goals and 23 points on the season.

Andrei Kostitsyn has 10 goals and 23 points on the season.

Anyone else a little surprised?
I'm not.

Actually I'm a bit surprised. I knew Sergei would get more points than Andrei eventually.. but not that soon since Nashville is not an offensive powerhouse either.. their best player last season only had 51 pts. So Sergei, despite starting the season on the bottom 6, with little icetime and recovering from an injury, is having a really good season so far.

Andrei, overall, is the better player but he is so streaky and when he's off, he's really off. The focus is not there. I don't think and never thought he is a lazy player but when he loses his confidence, he constantly loses the puck and takes bad decisions. At least, he doesn't cost the team when he plays bad now.

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01-09-2011, 07:37 PM
  #171
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Andrei is struggling because of Andrei. Right now Martin is to blame for Andrei's struggles? Were we praising martin's system when Andrei was playing so well in the beginning of the season? Why blame Martin for Andrei's struggles now? Just ridiculous.

Pleks was asked to focus more on the defensive end because Martin thought Pleks was more valuable to the team in the playoffs shutting down Ovie and Crosby than he would be being more focosed on the offensive end. Andrie's defensive game isn't near the level Plekanec's defensive game is. Martin wants Andrei to score, he wouldn't do anything to keep him from scoring. When Andrei is playing well, it's because he is doing exactly what Martin wants him to so, which is being physical and driving to the net.

It's not like Andrei was tearing it up under Carbo's "do whatever you want" system.

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01-09-2011, 07:39 PM
  #172
Richiebottles
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Randy Cunneyworth to Montreal. I said it first.

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01-09-2011, 07:43 PM
  #173
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When Andrei is playing well, it's because he is doing exactly what Martin wants him to so, which is being physical and driving to the net.
Andrei is still driving the net even if he's struggling now. Andrei has never been a perimeter player. So I don't know why you pointed that out.

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01-09-2011, 09:11 PM
  #174
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I'm not.

Actually I'm a bit surprised. I knew Sergei would get more points than Andrei eventually.. but not that soon since Nashville is not an offensive powerhouse either.. their best player last season only had 51 pts. So Sergei, despite starting the season on the bottom 6, with little icetime and recovering from an injury, is having a really good season so far.

Andrei, overall, is the better player but he is so streaky and when he's off, he's really off. The focus is not there. I don't think and never thought he is a lazy player but when he loses his confidence, he constantly loses the puck and takes bad decisions. At least, he doesn't cost the team when he plays bad now.
I feel people cannot give proper assessment of AK anymore.
I see people like Tremblay or Bouchard rolling clips of him playing claiming he's got no intensity, but then I see the exact same thing from other players.
AK is not the big hard checker, PF, every would like to see. Just like Lats could not be turned into Holmstrom.

I see AK make a lot of good plays offensively that aren't completed by his linemates. Of course, he will make some mistakes, just like every player does. But just because he doesn't have the same intensity as Plekanec or Gionta in his skating, doesn't mean he's lazy.
But I really feel like this year, it isn't very warranted.
Plekanec and Cammy have both had their share of struggles as well. Nobody will ever question Cammy's heart though, even if he's got 12G and getting 6M.

Sergei and Andrei would have made a great duo here. Them centered by Plekanec could have been magical, but we completely wasted that opportunity.

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01-09-2011, 09:21 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I feel people cannot give proper assessment of AK anymore.
I see people like Tremblay or Bouchard rolling clips of him playing claiming he's got no intensity, but then I see the exact same thing from other players.
AK is not the big hard checker, PF, every would like to see. Just like Lats could not be turned into Holmstrom.

I see AK make a lot of good plays offensively that aren't completed by his linemates. Of course, he will make some mistakes, just like every player does. But just because he doesn't have the same intensity as Plekanec or Gionta in his skating, doesn't mean he's lazy.
But I really feel like this year, it isn't very warranted.
Plekanec and Cammy have both had their share of struggles as well. Nobody will ever question Cammy's heart though, even if he's got 12G and getting 6M.

Sergei and Andrei would have made a great duo here. Them centered by Plekanec could have been magical, but we completely wasted that opportunity.
I waited all season last year to see that line.. i think it happened like once or twice. I always said the having both of them is a luxury. Its really a shame that they never really had the chance to play together for more than 5 games in a row.

If I'm the Preds GM, i would try to get AK at one point this season too. Not saying that they could become the next Sedins but they have all the tools to be successful in this league.

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