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Old
01-11-2011, 02:12 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
This isn't NHL '11. Asking a kid to play above his head will lead to confidence issues. That defense would get ripped apart in the 2nd half of the year, let alone the playoffs.
why would it get ripped apart? Is it getting ripped apart? where's the weak link? Is it just because they are inexperienced? Let's see as we go along the next month.

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01-11-2011, 02:13 PM
  #152
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When do the kids get their playoff experience? In a year that we can contend and now this is their first trip? No, give it to them this year when we are not a contender and let them use that experience to help then in future years. I would deal Eminger at the deadline, recall MDZ and go:

Staal Girardi
MDZ Sauer
MCD Gilroy

In this scenario everyone except Sauer has the talent to play the PP so you can split those minutes and McD was a beast killing penalties in college. He will do it effectively at this level. Have some faith in the kids (these talented kids). Remember this whole left side were first rounders. They will round out to strong players as they get older and more experienced. But none of that happens if they are replaced by rentals.
I'm sorry, but that's insane. They aren't going to get much experience by getting swept. You will do more harm than good by putting them in situations they aren't ready for. MDZ has already shown that he is not ready for top 4 minutes. Neither is Gilroy, though he has played better of late.

I'm not in favor of just playing all the kids and throwing them to the wolves with no hope of advancing in the playoffs. After all the work they've put in, if they get into the playoffs, they should be given the best chance to succeed. Trading Eminger and starting 2 rookies and 2 2nd year players in the playoffs is a recipe for disaster.

There's no way Sather or Torts would sign off on that. Even with Eminger and a vet Dman, the kids will still get experience, but on the 3rd pair where they belong.

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01-11-2011, 02:15 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
I think he will top out at 25-30 points with solid defensive play. I think a mix of Staal and Girardi is most likely his ceiling. He doesnt have great offensive instincts but he is positionally sound in his own zone and does make a god break-out pass.

Either way, he showed that in college. Thats a large jump in a matter of 6 months considering he has yet to really dominate at the AHL level.
He wasn't expected to dominate at the AHL level. After a slow start he was real good down there. Playing a simple game in all situations. How many point he gets will be a function of opportunity (ie., amount of PP time). He's getting his chance. Let's see how he does. I'm betting he will make the Gomez trade a steal all by himself.

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01-11-2011, 02:15 PM
  #154
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this is where we disagree fundamentally, I don't see Rozi or Eminger as important players. More like placeholders until our young guys can step in. I think they can step in now. We have plenty of Vets up front. It just so happens that our vets on the back end are inferior talentwise to our kids. Trust them.
Eminger is more equipped to play in the NHL right now over a player like Gilroy, MDZ or McDonagh.

You cant just assume they can play 20 minutes a night consistently without making mistakes that will cost games. That is why teams allow their young players time to get used to the NHL before asking them to do everything.

That is why Sauer was brought along slowly. he has looked good because they have put him in a position to succeed. Asking him to all of a sudden play 20+ minutes a night consistently will backfire. No team who has any idea what they are doing does that.

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01-11-2011, 02:16 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
Eminger is more equipped to play in the NHL right now over a player like Gilroy, MDZ or McDonagh.

You cant just assume they can play 20 minutes a night consistently without making mistakes that will cost games. That is why teams allow their young players time to get used to the NHL before asking them to do everything.

That is why Sauer was brought along slowly. he has looked good because they have put him in a position to succeed. Asking him to all of a sudden play 20+ minutes a night consistently will backfire. No team who has any idea what they are doing does that.
Sauer HAS been getting eased into second pairing minutes, though. Recently, and when Rosy was first out.

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01-11-2011, 02:17 PM
  #156
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why would it get ripped apart? Is it getting ripped apart? where's the weak link? Is it just because they are inexperienced? Let's see as we go along the next month.
Those players are not ready to be relied upon to stop the Semin's and Ovechkin's of the world. How about seeing Gilroy match-up against Malkin consistently over a 7-game series? Lecavalier? Savard? I guarantee they would be exposed nightly.

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01-11-2011, 02:17 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
Eminger is more equipped to play in the NHL right now over a player like Gilroy, MDZ or McDonagh.

You cant just assume they can play 20 minutes a night consistently without making mistakes that will cost games. That is why teams allow their young players time to get used to the NHL before asking them to do everything.

That is why Sauer was brought along slowly. he has looked good because they have put him in a position to succeed. Asking him to all of a sudden play 20+ minutes a night consistently will backfire. No team who has any idea what they are doing does that.
here's the way it shakes out: Staal and Girardi 20 - 25 a night
MDZ and Sauer 18 - 20 McD and Gilroy 16 - 18.

What did the Habs do with Subban or the Sabres with Myers or the Kings with Doughty and so on?

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01-11-2011, 02:18 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
When do the kids get their playoff experience? In a year that we can contend and now this is their first trip? No, give it to them this year when we are not a contender and let them use that experience to help then in future years. I would deal Eminger at the deadline, recall MDZ and go:

Staal Girardi
MDZ Sauer
MCD Gilroy

In this scenario everyone except Sauer has the talent to play the PP so you can split those minutes and McD was a beast killing penalties in college. He will do it effectively at this level. Have some faith in the kids (these talented kids). Remember this whole left side were first rounders. They will round out to strong players as they get older and more experienced. But none of that happens if they are replaced by rentals.
MDZ has not shown he belongs here all season and will not be back until warranted.

lets take it slow with Mcdonagh, no reason to rush, keep it simple and get your feet wet.

for now we are
Staal-Girardi
Eminger-Sauer
McDonagh-Gilroy

we defintely need a 7th d-man, but it is possible sather may trade for a 7th man or he may trade for a guy who can log 2nd pair minutes. I am all in favor for Tyutin who can log 2nd pair minutes and is still young enough to be a key player. It is not a lock that Gilroy will be brought back next year cause I am not sure he gets a raise to be on our 3rd pair, Tyutin is already signed and if the kids make him no longer needed he can be traded as he will be in the last year of his deal. Just my opinion, but we defintely need some depth and a guy who can log some minutes if needed

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01-11-2011, 02:18 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
Those players are not ready to be relied upon to stop the Semin's and Ovechkin's of the world. How about seeing Gilroy match-up against Malkin consistently over a 7-game series? Lecavalier? Savard? I guarantee they would be exposed nightly.
But that's why Torts matches Staal-Girardi against them, and last time we played the Penguins Sauer and Eminger dealt just fine with Malkin IIRC, who was playing on the second line.

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01-11-2011, 02:20 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
here's the way it shakes out: Staal and Girardi 20 - 25 a night
MDZ and Sauer 18 - 20 McD and Gilroy 16 - 18.

What did the Habs do with Subban or the Sabres with Myers or the Kings with Doughty and so on?
Del Zotto is in Hartford and there is no guarantee he will be back up anytime soon. Once you fall out of favor with Torts it takes some time to regain that trust. Just ask Gilroy or Voros.

So stop penciling Del Zotto in for 18 to 20 minutes a game, cause it isn't happening for at least another month and even when he comes back i doubt he gets 2nd pair minutes to start.

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01-11-2011, 02:22 PM
  #161
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What is Frolov is put on the LITR? (if thats what it is)....dont they not count against the cap under that status
We'd still have to use the bonus cushion first before LTIR does anything for us. And I'd be very reluctant to waste any of next year's cap space since there will be no bonus cushion next year with the expiring CBA.

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01-11-2011, 02:22 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
He wasn't expected to dominate at the AHL level. After a slow start he was real good down there. Playing a simple game in all situations. How many point he gets will be a function of opportunity (ie., amount of PP time). He's getting his chance. Let's see how he does. I'm betting he will make the Gomez trade a steal all by himself.
I dont care about the points he puts up. He is going to be a defensive defenseman. I saw him enough at Wisconsin to know what he projects to be.

Defensively he was still having his up's and down's. Thats what I am talking about. If he puts up 10 points I couldnt give a ****, its his defensive game that was still getting tuned up.

BTW I loved that trade and I am VERY high on McDonagh. I just don't think he is ready to be a regular yet in the NHL. I say give him 20 or so games and then bring in a veteran for the stretch-run. If there is an injury then bring him back up.

Its not even a specific problem with McDonagh. Its a problem with having Gilroy/MDZ + Sauer + McDonagh in the line-up who are rookies or play like rookies. Hank is going to get killed.

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01-11-2011, 02:23 PM
  #163
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What is Frolov is put on the LITR? (if thats what it is)....dont they not count against the cap under that status
Players on LTIR still count against the cap. The difference is, you can replace their salary, even if it means going over the cap. We aren't spending to the cap because of the bonuses. We don't want them to roll over to next year.

Frolov has a $1,435,484 remaining cap hit. If we put him on LTIR today, we would start earning LTIR credits ($16,129 per day). So we would be allowed to spend up to 60,835,484.

But the only way to really benefit from putting Frolov on IR is to go over the cap. If we do that, we won't have enough money left at the end of the year to pay off the bonuses, and some or all of the bonuses will roll over into next year.

I'm a little fuzzy on how LTIR credits are counted at the end of the year. I assume they are lost. So for example, if in the above scenario we spent exactly 60 mil, I don't think we'd have 835,484 left to apply toward bonuses, but I could be wrong about that.

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01-11-2011, 02:24 PM
  #164
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But that's why Torts matches Staal-Girardi against them, and last time we played the Penguins Sauer and Eminger dealt just fine with Malkin IIRC, who was playing on the second line.
The Pens will make a move at the deadline for a winger. Kunitz was out of their line-up. So was Staal. They have reinforcements coming.

The home team gets the last change. It could get ugly.

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01-11-2011, 02:27 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
here's the way it shakes out: Staal and Girardi 20 - 25 a night
MDZ and Sauer 18 - 20 McD and Gilroy 16 - 18.

What did the Habs do with Subban or the Sabres with Myers or the Kings with Doughty and so on?
Subban and Myers have been fairly bad this season. They were both started on the lowest pairing and brought along slowly, not just thrown into 20+ minutes a night.

Doughty is one of, if not the best defenseman in the league. Comparing Sauer, McDonagh, MDZ and Gilroy to him is farfetched.

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01-11-2011, 02:27 PM
  #166
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The Pens will make a move at the deadline for a winger. Kunitz was out of their line-up. So was Staal. They have reinforcements coming.

The home team gets the last change. It could get ugly.
i think this will be the most competitive playoffs we've seen from the rangers in a while. i'm excited for this... very excited.

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01-11-2011, 02:28 PM
  #167
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We can't afford to commit cap dollars for next season. We have too many RFAs to re-sign. We have about 16 mil in cap space next year, not counting if the cap goes up, but half of that will probably be spent on Dubi and Cally, with another 5 mil or so on Artie, Boyle and Sauer. Gilroy has to be re-signed or replaced. Eminger has to be re-signed or replaced. Do we bring Feds or Prospal back, or do one of the kids get that spot?

We may end up with some extra cap space, but we are better off waiting to see how much we have before we commit that money.
I think Cally+Dubi will get Girardi/Staal type $$$. 7M'ish to re-sign both. I think AA will get a little under 2M, while Boyle will be in the 1.5M range. One of Eminger/Gilroy will be brought back. Prospal likely won't be re-signed. I think EC becomes waiver fodder next season too. Feds might be brought back for the right $$$ amount. If the $$$ it too tight with Toots in the line-up, let both Eminger+Gilroy walk:
Staal-Girardi
Toots-Sauer
MDZ-McDonagh
Vtank

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01-11-2011, 02:37 PM
  #168
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What the **** is wrong with some of you?

Vet does not mean good. Repeat after me: Vet does not mean good. Repeat.

If you want a good vet Dman then be prepared to give up a Stepan, Dubinsky, Callahan or a fistful of firsts. Otherwise you're talking about picking up a 30 something has-been or never-was that some other team is trying to unload. We absolutely do NOT need that.

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01-11-2011, 02:42 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
here's the way it shakes out: Staal and Girardi 20 - 25 a night
MDZ and Sauer 18 - 20 McD and Gilroy 16 - 18.

What did the Habs do with Subban or the Sabres with Myers or the Kings with Doughty and so on?
Those are 1 kid per team. They had plenty of vets on the blueline.

Montreal had Markov, Spacek, Gil, Hamrlik, Bergeron and Gorges.

Buffalo had Talinder, Lydman, Montador and Rivet.

You're talking about having 4 kids on the blueline, none of which are ready for top 4 minutes, all with less than 2 years NHL experience. It's a huge difference.

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01-11-2011, 02:45 PM
  #170
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What the **** is wrong with some of you?

Vet does not mean good. Repeat after me: Vet does not mean good. Repeat.

If you want a good vet Dman then be prepared to give up a Stepan, Dubinsky, Callahan or a fistful of firsts. Otherwise you're talking about picking up a 30 something has-been or never-was that some other team is trying to unload. We absolutely do NOT need that.
Eminger cost Voros, and that was vet for vet.

I am not advocating trading for Kaberle, Pitkanen, McCabe, or insert big name.

Tyutin would be my priority because he has been successful here and is not that old and signed for next season, Bieksa would be great but he probably is not available, but there are other veterans who won't cost crazy amounts...
Zanon who is signed through next season and has a 1.933 cap hit
Vandermeer who is a UFA at the end of the season
Matt Carkner who is 30 and has another year left on his deal at 700,000

Sather isn't trading the kids, but he will get a veteran d-man before the playoffs, look at his track record

Gusarov
Backman
Ozolinsh
Poti
Morris

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01-11-2011, 02:47 PM
  #171
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Sorry couldn't resist...but isn't that why people keep saying we need to keep Drury?
Yes, but he is not a defenseman, need a veteran defenseman also!

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01-11-2011, 02:48 PM
  #172
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According to "HF" season's over. We got too many neophytes on D.

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01-11-2011, 02:48 PM
  #173
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What the **** is wrong with some of you?

Vet does not mean good. Repeat after me: Vet does not mean good. Repeat.

If you want a good vet Dman then be prepared to give up a Stepan, Dubinsky, Callahan or a fistful of firsts. Otherwise you're talking about picking up a 30 something has-been or never-was that some other team is trying to unload. We absolutely do NOT need that.
We're talking about picking up a rental dman who is experienced and can play top 4 minutes. It's not that complicated. There are plenty of options out there.

We aren't looking for some awesome shutdown guy, just someone that can eat up minutes and play reasonable well against the other team's 2nd line.

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01-11-2011, 02:50 PM
  #174
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Eminger cost Voros, and that was vet for vet.

I am not advocating trading for Kaberle, Pitkanen, McCabe, or insert big name.

Tyutin would be my priority because he has been successful here and is not that old and signed for next season, Bieksa would be great but he probably is not available, but there are other veterans who won't cost crazy amounts...
Zanon who is signed through next season and has a 1.933 cap hit
Vandermeer who is a UFA at the end of the season
Matt Carkner who is 30 and has another year left on his deal at 700,000

Sather isn't trading the kids, but he will get a veteran d-man before the playoffs, look at his track record

Gusarov
Backman
Ozolinsh
Poti
Morris
That's all pre Tortorella. I think it's safe to say he's impacted Sather's thinking when it comes to going with the youth.

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01-11-2011, 02:50 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Black Tank View Post
What the **** is wrong with some of you?

Vet does not mean good. Repeat after me: Vet does not mean good. Repeat.

If you want a good vet Dman then be prepared to give up a Stepan, Dubinsky, Callahan or a fistful of firsts. Otherwise you're talking about picking up a 30 something has-been or never-was that some other team is trying to unload. We absolutely do NOT need that.
I hear you, while i agree, we do need someone who can be a good voice to the young guys (non-coach) when things may not be going well and someone who can step in for injuries. This can be a 7th d-man who is in street clothes most of the time.

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