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#43: Flyers @ Bruins -Thursday, Jan. 13, 2011

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01-14-2011, 11:47 AM
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agrudez View Post
Well, I am sure Homer is on the phone right now attempting to solidify our defense with 4 more all stars to compliment Timonen and Pronger.

Every team is going to have below, on par and above average players. It is all about using their strengths and mitigating their weaknesses from a coach's standpoint.

Utilizing Carle's strength is allowing him to pinch and roam the offensive zone a bit, mitigating his weakness is having someone who isn't skating at half his speed and with half his lateral agility as last year getting beaten on the outside consistently with stick handling.
All he needs to do is not turnover the puck, man. When we lose a playoff game because of it, they'll wish they had a competent defenseman to play with Pronger as to not drain him so much. Carle is the reason why Pronger wasn't nominated for the Norris, because Pronger couldn't fully engage in what made him a dominant defenseman. They went out and got three more defenseman because Carle can't be trusted to anchor his own pairing, and he has an unmovable contract.

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01-14-2011, 11:56 AM
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
[1]Carle is the reason why Pronger wasn't nominated for the Norris, because Pronger couldn't fully engage in what made him a dominant defenseman. [2]They went out and got three more defenseman because Carle can't be trusted to anchor his own pairing, [3]and he has an unmovable contract.
Those are some bold statements there.

[1] is completely ridiculous speculation. Pronger wasn't nominated for a Norris because the Flyers went from projected to be in the SCF to ending as an 8th seed. Also, the committee has a ***** for points production and youth, generally disregarding actual defensive play.

[2] is completely untrue. They went out and get two more defensemen because Homer didn't want to see Lavi play his 3rd pairing 3 minutes a night in the playoffs again.

[3] is completely nonsensical. Carle does not have negative trade value like Walker or Leighton. At the WORST the Flyers could get a decent pick for him, but I also think he could be the focal piece in a big trade as many other posters have reiterated.

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01-14-2011, 12:04 PM
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agrudez View Post
Those are some bold statements there.

[1] is completely ridiculous speculation. Pronger wasn't nominated for a Norris because the Flyers went from projected to be in the SCF to ending as an 8th seed. Also, the committee has a ***** for points production and youth, generally disregarding actual defensive play.
Drew Doughty was nominated and his team was one spot higher in their conference.

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Originally Posted by agrudez View Post
[2] is completely untrue. They went out and get two more defensemen because Homer didn't want to see Lavi play his 3rd pairing 3 minutes a night in the playoffs again.
As much as we all don't want Matt Walker on this team, he ultimately wasn't traded here for Gagne to sit in the press box the entire season.

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Originally Posted by agrudez View Post
[3] is completely nonsensical. Carle does not have negative trade value like Walker or Leighton. At the WORST the Flyers could get a decent pick for him, but I also think he could be the focal piece in a big trade as many other posters have reiterated.
I didn't say worst trade value, I said unmovable contract. At least if you don't want money back. Most teams don't want 5th defenseman making well over $3M per year, while being tied into another season. He won't get another contract with us anyways.

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01-14-2011, 12:05 PM
  #154
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Pronger didn't get nominated for the Norris because his play tanked with the rest of the team during the slump. No one talked about it, but he struggled a lot during that stretch and was a key contributing factor to the struggles. Played lights out the rest of the year, but that run of play hurt.

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01-14-2011, 12:14 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Pronger didn't get nominated for the Norris because his play tanked with the rest of the team during the slump. No one talked about it, but he struggled a lot during that stretch and was a key contributing factor to the struggles. Played lights out the rest of the year, but that run of play hurt.
No, it was a conspiracy. It can't that simple. There needs to be complex reasoning to debunk it.

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01-14-2011, 12:18 PM
  #156
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Walker, like Leighton belongs in the AHL.

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01-14-2011, 12:24 PM
  #157
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I dont blame the slump for him not being niminated. there are other factors involved that will never be mentioned by those in charge of putting that nominations together. Never mind the fact that Mike Green was nominated over Pronger as well and his defense sucks. Of course the national media in there infinite wisdom never challenged or asked why Pronger was left off the finalist. It bothers me more that he wasnt a finalist then the fact that he didnt win.

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01-14-2011, 12:28 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
I dont blame the slump for him not being niminated. there are other factors involved that will never be mentioned by those in charge of putting that nominations together. Never mind the fact that Mike Green was nominated over Pronger as well and his defense sucks. Of course the national media in there infinite wisdom never challenged or asked why Pronger was left off the finalist. It bothers me more that he wasnt a finalist then the fact that he didnt win.
If he hadn't slumped hard with the rest of the team, there would have been no way they couldn't have at least nominated him. Because of the slump, much of the evidence for how good he was became subtle as opposed to pronounced... and, you have to remember, it isn't like the voters watch 82 games of every team. They are looking at stats and coverage noise.

His line in 15 December games was 1-5-6 -2. And the problems began in late November, of course. That stretch is why he ended up with <60 pts, and would have been pushing +30.

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01-14-2011, 12:29 PM
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Points were the biggest reason why Pronger and Lidstrom got left off. Sad, but true. I think they still had better defensive stats than Keith and Doughty

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01-14-2011, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agrudez View Post
He is a slightly above average defenseman who excels in the offensive end and for all of his mistakes he still makes far fewer than Coburn the mouth-breather.

You can rant about Carle's cap hit if you want (and I would argue that it isn't MUCH higher than it should be), but he makes many more positive than negative plays (the negativity of this board and the ever present vitriol for Carle especially gives you all **** colored glasses).

I will say; however, it is quite obvious that, much like Coburn, he needs a player who is better defensively than himself to make up for the times when he has "brain farts" and this season Pronger has been a shell of himself and hasn't provided that safety blanket.
Carle turns the puck over much more than Coburn. Coburn had 1 brutal giveaway yesterday, Carle had at least 3. Coburn's problems are penalties and consistent positioning. Carle's problems are knowing which players are on his team, and which aren't. When Coburn panics, he takes a penalty. When Carle panics he passes it to the other team.

They both have their flaws, but Carle is worse with turnovers than Coburn. We already have 2 of the best D men in the league in Timonen and Pronger, in my opinion Carle's offense isn't worth his **** ups. I Thank him for getting us into OT against the rags last year, but I trade him this off season. His points also give him more value to an outside team who doesn't realize that he can't be trusted.

Carle makes 1 great play per game, balanced with 3 or 4 horrible plays. Yesterday's game was a prime example of that. Walker was awful, Carle was bad, Coburn had 1 horrible turnover but was + 3 and joined the rush nicely. Timonen had a bad giveaway but he was fine otherwise, OD with one bad play, but he got a goal to redeem. Mez also had 1 really bad turnover. One of the worst games by our D as a whole, but it was still Carle who stood out at -3 (Walker, Mez, OD -1 Coburn Timo +3) and he also created no offense.

His offensive production is also extremely streaky making him even more frustrating. He had 8 points in his first 5 games last season, and then it took him 25 games to get another 8 points(still a 40 point pace, which he then didn't hit).


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01-14-2011, 12:33 PM
  #161
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the Norris trophy is about points. not about who is the best defenseman. Case in point last year when Keith and Green were finalist. Doughty deserved to be there and should of won.

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01-14-2011, 12:35 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Points were the biggest reason why Pronger and Lidstrom got left off. Sad, but true. I think they still had better defensive stats than Keith and Doughty
In frontline stats, Doughty wasn't really all that more impressive than Pronger. 4 more points, and Pronger was +22 to Doughty's +20.

I assume that the voters don't look at more advanced metrics.

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01-14-2011, 12:37 PM
  #163
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Also Pronger didnt have as good of an olympics as Keith and Doughty, so that bougth them hype. People love to hate on Pronger

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01-14-2011, 12:48 PM
  #164
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Add to the fact that most view the west as the better conference.
If Doughty played in the midwest or even East he may have won IMO

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01-14-2011, 12:55 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
All he needs to do is not turnover the puck, man. When we lose a playoff game because of it, they'll wish they had a competent defenseman to play with Pronger as to not drain him so much. Carle is the reason why Pronger wasn't nominated for the Norris, because Pronger couldn't fully engage in what made him a dominant defenseman. They went out and got three more defenseman because Carle can't be trusted to anchor his own pairing, and he has an unmovable contract.
Last year, Carle played selflessly to accomodate Pronger. He always passed the puck to Pronger for one-timers on the PP, instead of using his own creativity to create chances. He listened and did everything Pronger asked in the defensive zone. Name one thing Carle did to prevent Pronger a Norris? They got more defensemen because they were playing Carle and Pronger (Timonen) too much and there was no third pairing. And is contract is movable, he signed the deal in San Jose and has been moved twice.

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01-14-2011, 12:55 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Add to the fact that most view the west as the better conference.
If Doughty played in the midwest or even East he may have won IMO
I think the Hawks/Caps being the media darlings was the biggest factor there. No one cared about the Kings.

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01-14-2011, 12:56 PM
  #167
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Maybe I'm misreading this, but did you just claim that Pronger wouldn't have been as good without Carle?

edit: this is @ denverboone

edit2: also, where has that "offensive creativity" been all this season, and for almost the entire second half of last season? I definitely haven't seen any of it so far this year.

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01-14-2011, 12:58 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by DenverBoone View Post
Last year, Carle played selflessly to accomodate Pronger. He always passed the puck to Pronger for one-timers on the PP, instead of using his own creativity to create chances. He listened and did everything Pronger asked in the defensive zone. Name one thing Carle did to prevent Pronger a Norris? They got more defensemen because they were playing Carle and Pronger (Timonen) too much and there was no third pairing. And is contract is movable, he signed the deal in San Jose and has been moved twice.
Timonen always passes to Pronger for the one-timer... He's got an exceptional shot from the point, I'm not sure Carle deserves accolades for not being a moron and taking advantage of that skill for the betterment of the team.

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01-14-2011, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Maybe I'm misreading this, but did you just claim that Pronger wouldn't have been as good without Carle?

edit: this is @ denverboone

edit2: also, where has that "offensive creativity" been all this season, and for almost the entire second half of last season? I definitely haven't seen any of it so far this year.
I mean, he is on pace for a 40 pt season with no PP points. He does have some offensive skill. However, he's a rather mediocre PP QB.

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01-14-2011, 01:00 PM
  #170
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I mean, he is on pace for a 40 pt season with no PP points. He does have some offensive skill. However, he's a rather mediocre PP QB.
Wow, I really hadn't noticed. Probably because I am indeed mostly watching him on the PP, since that's where I expect him to really earn his money.

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01-14-2011, 01:02 PM
  #171
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I think the Hawks/Caps being the media darlings was the biggest factor there. No one cared about the Kings.
I agree with that.
The Flyers are quite the opposite. remember that infamous JR rant after he ate a puck? its true.

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01-14-2011, 01:06 PM
  #172
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I agree with that.
The Flyers are quite the opposite. remember that infamous JR rant after he ate a puck? its true.
We're the ******* child that everyone likes to hate on. However, I think a lot of the animus comes from winning a lot of games and hurting a lot of feelings over the years.

So, I'll take it... if only we could win a couple of Cups here or there.

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01-14-2011, 01:22 PM
  #173
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Carle's "offensive creativity" stems from a coach who is no longer part of the organization. Remember the offensive start he had last year, and then the last 4 months of the season he had like 9 points or something. Not much different than Holmgren's "Randy Jones had 31 points, so he has to be good."

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01-14-2011, 01:23 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Carle turns the puck over much more than Coburn. Coburn had 1 brutal giveaway yesterday, Carle had at least 3. Coburn's problems are penalties and consistent positioning. Carle's problems are knowing which players are on his team, and which aren't. When Coburn panics, he takes a penalty. When Carle panics he passes it to the other team.
That is a great assessment.

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01-14-2011, 01:34 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Carle's "offensive creativity" stems from a coach who is no longer part of the organization. Remember the offensive start he had last year, and then the last 4 months of the season he had like 9 points or something. Not much different than Holmgren's "Randy Jones had 31 points, so he has to be good."
Not entirely fair. As said, Carle is on pace for 40 pts with zero PP points. He's doing something right.

Carle also threads the needle on some very nice passes that lead to open nets and golden chances, that a lot of D don't try and/or pull off. He isn't an offensive phenom, but he is compared to someone like Coburn... who literally has never made a truly creative offensive play.

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