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#43: Flyers @ Bruins -Thursday, Jan. 13, 2011

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01-14-2011, 12:37 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Not entirely fair. As said, Carle is on pace for 40 pts with zero PP points. He's doing something right.

Carle also threads the needle on some very nice passes that lead to open nets and golden chances, that a lot of D don't try and/or pull off. He isn't an offensive phenom, but he is compared to someone like Coburn... who literally has never made a truly creative offensive play.
I'll take the guy who doesn't go tape-to-tape to opponent's stick.

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01-14-2011, 12:39 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
I'll take the guy who doesn't go tape-to-tape to opponent's stick.
Look, I'm no Carle lover... but if you're going to try and make offensive plays, you're going to make turnovers. That's the reality.

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01-14-2011, 12:44 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Look, I'm no Carle lover... but if you're going to try and make offensive plays, you're going to make turnovers. That's the reality.
so we have one defenseman who makes risky passes that can be very good or very bad and one other defenseman who while physical is prone to some really dumb ill-timed penalties. Not a great combo to have if you ask me.

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01-14-2011, 12:47 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Look, I'm no Carle lover... but if you're going to try and make offensive plays, you're going to make turnovers. That's the reality.
Enough guys in this league can also do so without people wondering whether or not the puck ends up in the back of their own net when the puck leaves his stick, and making a little less doing so.

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01-14-2011, 12:54 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
so we have one defenseman who makes risky passes that can be very good or very bad and one other defenseman who while physical is prone to some really dumb ill-timed penalties. Not a great combo to have if you ask me.
And both being paid like they're solid.

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01-14-2011, 12:58 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I mean, he is on pace for a 40 pt season with no PP points. He does have some offensive skill. However, he's a rather mediocre PP QB.
over 100 minutes on PP and 0 points, great job...

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01-14-2011, 01:04 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by MiD View Post
over 100 minutes on PP and 0 points, great job...

Makes you scratch your head doesn't it?

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01-14-2011, 01:05 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiD View Post
over 100 minutes on PP and 0 points, great job...
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Originally Posted by Bob Clarke Fan Club View Post
Makes you scratch your head doesn't it?
He and Meszaros have been a disaster on the top of the 2nd pairing. Meszaros is a one-trick pony offensively, and Carle really struggles when he gets challenged along the blue line and is forced to make quick passes.

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01-14-2011, 02:10 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Not entirely fair. As said, Carle is on pace for 40 pts with zero PP points. He's doing something right.

Carle also threads the needle on some very nice passes that lead to open nets and golden chances, that a lot of D don't try and/or pull off. He isn't an offensive phenom, but he is compared to someone like Coburn... who literally has never made a truly creative offensive play.
He was on pace for over 40 points last year too..

Coburn isn't creative but he still does enough in my opinion as a 3rd or 4th D man. He did a good job jumping in on the rush for the first goal, and a good job pinching in on the goal where he got an assist.

The problem with Carle isnt when he goes for high risk passes, its when he tries to make simple plays. He turns it over on EASY outs where he has 3 pass options and 1 obstacle that he somehow hits. Or he ****s up like yesterday and can't even pick up a puck that isn't moving. Even Shelley can do that

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01-14-2011, 02:59 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
He was on pace for over 40 points last year too..

Coburn isn't creative but he still does enough in my opinion as a 3rd or 4th D man. He did a good job jumping in on the rush for the first goal, and a good job pinching in on the goal where he got an assist.

The problem with Carle isnt when he goes for high risk passes, its when he tries to make simple plays. He turns it over on EASY outs where he has 3 pass options and 1 obstacle that he somehow hits. Or he ****s up like yesterday and can't even pick up a puck that isn't moving. Even Shelley can do that
The enigma that is Coburn is that come the playoffs he is probably the 3rd best performer and d-man I would want on the ice from this blueline.

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01-14-2011, 03:26 PM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
He was on pace for over 40 points last year too..

Coburn isn't creative but he still does enough in my opinion as a 3rd or 4th D man. He did a good job jumping in on the rush for the first goal, and a good job pinching in on the goal where he got an assist.

The problem with Carle isnt when he goes for high risk passes, its when he tries to make simple plays. He turns it over on EASY outs where he has 3 pass options and 1 obstacle that he somehow hits. Or he ****s up like yesterday and can't even pick up a puck that isn't moving. Even Shelley can do that
Coburn is on pace for 17 pts. Or his third consecutive drop. Essentially 5th in GFON/60 amongst our D. He was worse last year. Even more, he's an anchor on Timonen who actually can generate some offense.

I'm not a huge fan of Carle, but he's LIGHT YEARS ahead of Coburn when it comes to creating some offense. Carle gives up a bit more defensively than Coburn, but his offense more than outweighs that to this point in the season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
The enigma that is Coburn is that come the playoffs he is probably the 3rd best performer and d-man I would want on the ice from this blueline.
Clearly you forget Coburn getting trashed by the Hawks.

TRASHED.

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01-14-2011, 03:33 PM
  #187
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Who didnt get thrashed though?

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01-14-2011, 03:42 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Who didnt get thrashed though?
On our D?

Coburn 0-1-1 -9 (was wrong when I said -7 the other day)
Carle 1-2-3 -2
Parent 0-0-0 -1 (1 GP)
Krajicek 0-2-2 -1
Bartulis 0-0-0 0 (5 GP)
Timonen 1-2-3 0
Pronger 0-4-4 +3

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01-14-2011, 03:46 PM
  #189
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Coburn did have an awful series, and we talked about this last week, but really even Pronger had a -5 game. That is insane. Leighton definitely played a factor.

Coburn's such an enigma. Sometimes he is a beast defensively, sometimes a complete pushover

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01-14-2011, 03:48 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Coburn did have an awful series, and we talked about this last week, but really even Pronger had a -5 game. That is insane. Leighton definitely played a factor.
Oh, absolutely... but similar to our goalies, Coburn built himself up in the playoffs getting to play against some weak offensive teams. His real problem in the SCF, was that because we were playing 5D so much, he was taking shifts away from Timonen and that was when he was getting eviscerated.

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01-14-2011, 03:52 PM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Oh, absolutely... but similar to our goalies, Coburn built himself up in the playoffs getting to play against some weak offensive teams. His real problem in the SCF, was that because we were playing 5D so much, he was taking shifts away from Timonen and that was when he was getting eviscerated.
yeah very true. If Carle is dealt sometime, I would love to see Coburn get some time with Pronger, Mezaros with Timonen. Coburn's problem is that he gets too comfortable with his partner, playing with Pronger would make him play a different game than with Timonen. He could handle the extra skating work, and maybe even learn to be more physical.

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01-14-2011, 04:08 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Because Leighton isn't a good goalie, his positioning is horrible as is his rebound control. He worked passably for us because he is big and our D can help his rebounds
So Boucher and Bob must be pretty bad too if they can't put up substantially better numbers.

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01-14-2011, 04:09 PM
  #193
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So Boucher and Bob must be pretty bad too if they can't put up substantially better numbers.
Boucher isn't much better than Leighton (if at all), and Bob is a rookie...

'Course, they're both putting up better numbers than I would have expected Leighton to in extended duty this year.

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01-14-2011, 04:33 PM
  #194
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During the Buffalo game, Coburn responded to a winger skating into the zone by turtling all the way back to the crease. I almost kicked my tv in, you'd think he was 3 feet tall and made of popsicle sticks held together with spit on that play.

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01-14-2011, 05:22 PM
  #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Glad OD got his first goal as a Flyer, and am glad Z came back and got some points.

I really like OD he is a perfect 3rd pairing vet. I wonder if he has any gas left for next year

Also FlyHigh: it's funny that you try to blame Carle's horrible game purely on Walker when Walker was only -1 yet Carle was -3. I thought you had given up Carle supporting.
Hey look, a retarded +/- argument!

Oh, look, Carle has a higher +/- than both Kimmo and Pronger for the season, he must be better than them right!!

Also, please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say it was purely because of Walker, I said that putting a defensive disaster (Walker) and an extremely streaky player (Carle) was pretty stupid by Lavi. I mean, neither one was great, it just amuses me that Carle is getting dumped on for the last goal so hard (in a game where we allowed 7).

Jester essentially makes the point I've been making for weeks on Carle and Coburn...

Quote:
I'm not a huge fan of Carle, but he's LIGHT YEARS ahead of Coburn when it comes to creating some offense. Carle gives up a bit more defensively than Coburn, but his offense more than outweighs that to this point in the season.
But, when I say the same thing, I'm a huge Carle supporter! Get me that No.25 jersey!

Carle is (at best) a mediocre d-man defensively and made a really ****** play last night to help give up the GWG, doesn't change the fact that the overall defensive effort last night was not great and that Boosh let in a couple bad ones.

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01-14-2011, 05:27 PM
  #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
During the Buffalo game, Coburn responded to a winger skating into the zone by turtling all the way back to the crease. I almost kicked my tv in, you'd think he was 3 feet tall and made of popsicle sticks held together with spit on that play.
Coburn has gotten positively meek in the corners. I mean, this guy is roughly 6'5, 220 and he cannot consistently win a board battle.

I kind of like him (not during games) cause he's a goofball, but his hockey IQ is negative.

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01-14-2011, 05:41 PM
  #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Coburn has gotten positively meek in the corners. I mean, this guy is roughly 6'5, 220 and he cannot consistently win a board battle.

I kind of like him (not during games) cause he's a goofball, but his hockey IQ is negative.
Yeah, it really bothers me. I mean, come one. At least try to stand your ground and force the attacker to the outside. Don't skate straight backwards, doing nothing to challenge him, until he reaches your goalie.

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01-14-2011, 05:47 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Hey look, a retarded +/- argument!

Oh, look, Carle has a higher +/- than both Kimmo and Pronger for the season, he must be better than them right!!

Also, please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say it was purely because of Walker, I said that putting a defensive disaster (Walker) and an extremely streaky player (Carle) was pretty stupid by Lavi. I mean, neither one was great, it just amuses me that Carle is getting dumped on for the last goal so hard (in a game where we allowed 7).

Jester essentially makes the point I've been making for weeks on Carle and Coburn...
yeah sorry for harping on you, just wanted to Point out that Carle was bad even when Walker wasn't paired with him. And you did try and blame that turnover on the GWg on Coburn first (I guess you only saw the 5)

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01-14-2011, 05:51 PM
  #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
yeah sorry for harping on you, just wanted to Point out that Carle was bad even when Walker wasn't paired with him. And you did try and blame that turnover on the GWg on Coburn first (I guess you only saw the 5)
I actually really don't think I did, but I don't have the desire to go back and check. I mean, that was a Carle type play all the way. I got labeled a Carle defender because I went over the top in defending him when I felt others went over the top in criticizing him, I'm not a huge fan of the guy, he's a No.4 who gets paid too much.

I did blame Coburn for the 5 on 3 (still haven't seen a replay) which may not have been just, I don't know.

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01-14-2011, 06:16 PM
  #200
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I mean, he is on pace for a 40 pt season with no PP points. He does have some offensive skill. However, he's a rather mediocre PP QB.
Here's my problem with Carle.

We all already know that he can be a giveaway machine at times, granted. However, the guy is described as an offensive d-man with good offensive skill yet he hasn't put up numbers worthy of that description since 06-07...four seasons ago. That's the only time he's ever even scratched 40 points in his career (and barely at that). Since then his best season is with us in 09-10 with 35 points. Which is okay, granted, but not someone I would describe as a good offensive d-man or good enough to make up for his defensive lapses.

He's also been terribly ineffective on the PP and needed to be sheltered by Pronger last season.

Even this season he's not on pace for 40 points despite his semi-recent hot streak. He has 20 points in 43 games. Which is on pace for just below 40.

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