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Jeff Carter - future at wing or Center?

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Old
01-14-2011, 03:01 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
For the Carter hate.
I stopped reading when I saw this typical red herring....

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01-14-2011, 03:02 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Those of you saying Carter isn't cycling must not be watching many games this year. Especially when he has been with JVR they have been cycling very successfully.

BTW Carter should be a C. Best facoff guy on our team by far and for reasons like this:



Maybe he can play wing in the offensive zone after the draw, but otherwise he should be a C
If Carter was relentless like that more often and used his body I would have zero complaints with him as a player.

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01-14-2011, 03:06 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
How about his goal last night. Nobody in the league stops that one. I was watching the Boston telecast and they were all over it. That is the interesting thing about being a fan of this team forced to watch opposing teams telecast. You realize just how highly the rest of the league views our players. Carter is a stud, he is a top 10-20 center in the league. I am good with the suggestions to leave him at Center and put Giroux on the wing with Richards. That works for me.

For the Carter hate, he comes into camp in the best shape of everyone. He has a good cycle game and is our second best two way forward. Sure he misses the net a lot, but so does Ovechkin, Sharp, Heatley and other pure goal scorers that lead the league in scoring. However - I think this year he is much better than last and that tells me he still hasn't reached his peak. I suspect in the next couple of years once they figure out lines and a guy to feed him, he will get back to 40 goals. I started this to see where he should play, not to give people a forum to start crapping on him again. Damn, I thought we were past that.

I'll buy that. But there was a piece that I heard from the Philly feed that he and Coatsey were joking about Carter only taking something like four slapshots all season and they both had a nice drunken laugh. Great, we get it, his money is made with his wrist shot....but for goodness sake, develop a slapshot or a onetimer and he will gain an entire different set of skills that he can use.

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01-14-2011, 03:08 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
If Carter was relentless like that more often and used his body I would have zero complaints with him as a player.
As we've established since you joined this site. Many of your criticisms have about as much foundation to them as the existence of the goblin under my bed.

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01-14-2011, 03:12 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
As we've established since you joined this site. Many of your criticisms have about as much foundation to them as the existence of the goblin under my bed.
I call it as I see it, and there are a lot more who feel the same including guys like Meltzer who have a direct pulse to the team.

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01-14-2011, 03:16 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
I'll buy that. But there was a piece that I heard from the Philly feed that he and Coatsey were joking about Carter only taking something like four slapshots all season and they both had a nice drunken laugh. Great, we get it, his money is made with his wrist shot....but for goodness sake, develop a slapshot or a onetimer and he will gain an entire different set of skills that he can use.
Yup I found that tidbit interesting as well and remember last year he said "everybody knows I like to shoot from everywhere and anywhere" which when you are playing certain teams like Chicago where puck possession is key b/c they own you on faceoffs it behooves you to adjust your game and be more patient and disciplined with the puck like Leino! Hence that line's success. I find it a bit disconcerting when Carter relishes in the fact that his game is predictable more times than not. It's the same when he leveled a player last year as well and said "everybody knows I'm not a hitter." Yes we know and you have other skills that define you but jeesh be a bit more adaptable. It's not like he can't adapt..it's more a willingness to do so like what JVR has shown of late. That's the definition of survival of the fittest..adaptability. Again, hopefully he rounds out his game a bit more...he already has done so since he first came on board by being better without the puck and with his faceoffs..now he needs to put it all together particularly come playoff time. Again this is not about "hate'' it's about constructive criticism especially since he'll be around and the team made a long term commitment. He needs to show some more consistent commitment to his game and become that 40 goal perennial scorer people tagged him as being...

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01-14-2011, 03:17 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
I call it as I see it, and there are a lot more who feel the same including guys like Meltzer who have a direct pulse to the team.
I very much doubt Meltzer would say something completely asinine, like "Carter is never in front of the net."

Which you claimed earlier this year.

There are aspects of Carter's game that are easily game for relevant criticism. Some of those you make. Many of the critiques you offer of Carter are based entirely in a skewed vision brought about by your a priori dislike for Carter.

Of course, if we were to get into Meltzer's critique of Carter's game, I have some problems with the criticisms he has made. Most specifically Meltzer likes to harp on inconsistency in offensive production in players. Well, that's life. If everyone consistently produced, we'd have a lot more guys putting up huge point totals. Every player but the elite go through ebbs and flows, that's just the way it is.

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01-14-2011, 03:31 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I very much doubt Meltzer would say something completely asinine, like "Carter is never in front of the net."

Which you claimed earlier this year.

There are aspects of Carter's game that are easily game for relevant criticism. Some of those you make. Many of the critiques you offer of Carter are based entirely in a skewed vision brought about by your a priori dislike for Carter.

Of course, if we were to get into Meltzer's critique of Carter's game, I have some problems with the criticisms he has made. Most specifically Meltzer likes to harp on inconsistency in offensive production in players. Well, that's life. If everyone consistently produced, we'd have a lot more guys putting up huge point totals. Every player but the elite go through ebbs and flows, that's just the way it is.
Carter is a soft player, it is who he is, when he amps it up and plays with a little more intesity to consistency his play elevates. He will go to the front of the net but I would like to see him there more often.

My ciritiques are based on watching this kid play over the last couple years. I think he has the talent and ability to be much better and more consistent. He is in his 6th NHL season, he is not a guy who can just rely on people not knowing who he is. That means he needs to adapt to gain skills and pieces of his game to continue to get better, if that means moving to wing and being a support guy while taking faceoffs, so be it. I do not see that intensity in his game and the fact that he does not like contact is a direct correlation to why he has dropped in his production during the playoffs IMO.

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01-14-2011, 03:32 PM
  #34
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Why are we talking about Meltzer like he is all knowing? His articles look like they were cut and pasted from the Flyers media book. I haven't seen much interesting from him in a couple of years. Then again, I haven't read much of him this year as I don't bother with HockeyBuzz anymore.

When I look for "educated" opinions, I look at guys like Bob Mckenzie from TSN (unbiased neutral). And all of those guys LOVE Carter.

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01-14-2011, 03:33 PM
  #35
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carter is an unusual commodity as a scoring center so hes hard to fit guys around. if hes going to switch to wing you absolutely move him left, esp in a left wing lock where he can put his defensive awareness to good use. but i would personally have the lineup go

bartnell briere leino
jvr richards giroux
nodl carter zherdev
carcillo betts powe

nodl played a stint on carters wing during his 40 goal year and while he didint do much more than get the puck to carter i think thats Exactly what youd want him to do on that line. im surprised the two havent played more together this year as its some chemistry id be interested in rekindling if im laviolette.

jvr and carter together puts all our size on one line and while i think that does bring an element other teams have to worry about id rather keep them seperate. jvr is still growing and carters physical edge which can be nasty is the most inconsistent part of his game

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01-14-2011, 03:34 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
I'll buy that. But there was a piece that I heard from the Philly feed that he and Coatsey were joking about Carter only taking something like four slapshots all season and they both had a nice drunken laugh. Great, we get it, his money is made with his wrist shot....but for goodness sake, develop a slapshot or a onetimer and he will gain an entire different set of skills that he can use.
Not very many forwards use the slapshot anymore. What makes Jeff Carter's wrist shot so effective (accuracy not withstanding) is the combination of how fast he shoots and how quickly he can release the puck. He doesn't need the puck in the shooting position for very long to get off a good shot. Not to mention I don't know that it's really fair to say he doesn't have a one timer. He might not have one on the level of a Steven Stamkos, but the Flyers don't really set up in the offensive zone in a formation that is suitable for one timers. You watch Tampa on the powerplay and it's just Stamkos floating up and down the left wing waiting for someone to hit him for the one timer.

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01-14-2011, 03:35 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
Not exactly..I've pretty much watched every game thus far like the hockey nerd I am and I've also watched Carter's play...like I mentioned in my earlier post the game against Pitt he did exceptionally well. He's had a few more here and there where he's been noticeable b/c he's been more involved but overall this year (possibly b/c he's adjusting to the wing) he's been pretty "peripheral" with his game.
Obviously he does come in and shoot a lot as well, but he has been cycling well also

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01-14-2011, 03:36 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
I stopped reading when I saw this typical red herring....
I didn't say "haters" I said "hate". I was merely pointing out that for all the negatives discussed, the guy is probably our best 2 way forward this year. He has been excellent, and I would of been in the "hater" category this time last year. I think he has been great - his faceoff percentage has been awesome, he is scoring big goals, playing great D.....so he shoots high and wide sometimes, it doesn't seem to be hurting his plus minus or other related stats.

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01-14-2011, 03:37 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Carter is a soft player, it is who he is, when he amps it up and plays with a little more intesity to consistency his play elevates. He will go to the front of the net but I would like to see him there more often.

My ciritiques are based on watching this kid play over the last couple years. I think he has the talent and ability to be much better and more consistent. He is in his 6th NHL season, he is not a guy who can just rely on people not knowing who he is. That means he needs to adapt to gain skills and pieces of his game to continue to get better, if that means moving to wing and being a support guy while taking faceoffs, so be it. I do not see that intensity in his game and the fact that he does not like contact is a direct correlation to why he has dropped in his production during the playoffs IMO.
Yes, we've also established that much of your criticisms also stem from a delusional level of high expectations for him. Nothing stings more than unmet expectations...

I also love this "intensity" argument, as if it's so easy to have success in the NHL that you can just turn it on and off. Those guys wash out way before they get to the stage Carter is at, man. Carter doesn't have an extroverted personality on the ice... that is not a mark of lack of intensity, or effort... just his demeanor on the ice. There are plenty of extremely good hockey players that were similar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Why are we talking about Meltzer like he is all knowing? His articles look like they were cut and pasted from the Flyers media book. I haven't seen much interesting from him in a couple of years. Then again, I haven't read much of him this year as I don't bother with HockeyBuzz anymore.

When I look for "educated" opinions, I look at guys like Bob Mckenzie from TSN (unbiased neutral). And all of those guys LOVE Carter.
You realize they all probably watch a grand total of 10 Flyer games a year, and highlights prior to the playoffs... right?

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01-14-2011, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
I didn't say "haters" I said "hate". I was merely pointing out that for all the negatives discussed, the guy is probably our best 2 way forward this year. He has been excellent, and I would of been in the "hater" category this time last year. I think he has been great - his faceoff percentage has been awesome, he is scoring big goals, playing great D.....so he shoots high and wide sometimes, it doesn't seem to be hurting his plus minus or other related stats.
I wouldn't say he's been excellent...he's been good to avg....it's clear he's still adjusting to the wing. I'm not sure if he lost something with his injuries to his feet b/c he used to be much more imposing when he got his wheels going and able to back off the D but then again playing center allows you to do that more...

Nonetheless, let's see how he adapts and how he performs in the playoffs b/c we will certainly need him to be on his game to get far..

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01-14-2011, 03:47 PM
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Yes, we've also established that much of your criticisms also stem from a delusional level of high expectations for him. Nothing stings more than unmet expectations...

I also love this "intensity" argument, as if it's so easy to have success in the NHL that you can just turn it on and off. Those guys wash out way before they get to the stage Carter is at, man. Carter doesn't have an extroverted personality on the ice... that is not a mark of lack of intensity, or effort... just his demeanor on the ice. There are plenty of extremely good hockey players that were similar.



You realize they all probably watch a grand total of 10 Flyer games a year, and highlights prior to the playoffs... right?
Well in all fairness sometimes you have to be harder on those whom you deem to have above average potential. Hitchcock was good at that but the player had to have thick skin. Lavy seems to have that way about him thus why I think he's a little hard headed to us with his personel decisions which are not always right but there is method to his madness. I find nothing wrong with fans wanting Carter to excel to his capabilities. I certainly don't like when people equate it with "hate" as even you are on record as not liking....

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01-14-2011, 03:54 PM
  #42
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Well in all fairness sometimes you have to be harder on those whom you deem to have above average potential. Hitchcock was good at that but the player had to have thick skin. Lavy seems to have that way about him thus why I think he's a little hard headed to us with his personel decisions which are not always right but there is method to his madness. I find nothing wrong with fans wanting Carter to excel to his capabilities. I certainly don't like when people equate it with "hate" as even you are on record as not liking....
Cartsiephan hates Carter. He's come up with so many delusional critiques of him, argues to trade him in ever single thread, and has created an entire persona on this site centered on the idea that his purpose is to push back against all the "Carter lovers". The irony, of course, being that Carter has received heavy criticism throughout his entire tenure here in Philadelphia.

All that being said... there is nothing motivational about fabricating criticism divorced from reality. Moreover, it isn't like Carter's production in the NHL the last few years has been "average." People want him to be this 40+ goal guy putting up 80+ points. He's probably not going to do that, and that's the reality. The fact that he isn't doing that is not due to a lack of effort, but due to the limitations of his game. Most notably, he's a relatively one-dimensional offensive player. The one thing he does really well, he does extremely well. However, Carter is not suddenly going to develop into a shifty forward that is dishing the puck to the open guy after opening a lane for him (a la Giroux). That's not his game... and when you're at this level, you don't suddenly change spots.

He's a guy that can probably go out there and get 35ish goals (some years more, some years less), and around 70ish points in an 82 game season.

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01-14-2011, 03:56 PM
  #43
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You realize they all probably watch a grand total of 10 Flyer games a year, and highlights prior to the playoffs... right?
You don't know them well. Trust me, they know the players and they watch the tape for "work purposes" we watch as "fans" and our media guys watch it "looking for a story".

However, I agree that the "opposition media" know nothing about the FLyers. IE. IF I am watching a Boston vs. Flyers telecast, the announcers are lucky if they know have to pronunce the names of the players. Just like last night Richards setup Zherdev's goal. I'm like, 15 not 18 - Richards is the one with the "C" on his jersey. So I agree with you, but I wouldn't lump Mckenzie in that category.

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01-14-2011, 04:00 PM
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The reason Carter isn't getting 40 goals anymore is because of how deep this team is. He isn't "the guy" anymore! You don't get 40-50 goals unless you are always first PP, on the ice to end games and playing in all key situations and with the guys who are there to set you up. Carter is kind of our third center now in a true three line team, you ain't gettin 50 goals in that situation. IT is impressive he is scoring at a 35 goal clip in this situation if you ask me.

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01-14-2011, 04:04 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
You don't know them well. Trust me, they know the players and they watch the tape for "work purposes" we watch as "fans" and our media guys watch it "looking for a story".

However, I agree that the "opposition media" know nothing about the FLyers. IE. IF I am watching a Boston vs. Flyers telecast, the announcers are lucky if they know have to pronunce the names of the players. Just like last night Richards setup Zherdev's goal. I'm like, 15 not 18 - Richards is the one with the "C" on his jersey. So I agree with you, but I wouldn't lump Mckenzie in that category.
I know them quite well... their observations are readily accessible. The problem with national media figures is that there is only so much observation they can do as they cover the entire league. So, crapping on Meltzer's take (who watches every single Flyers game) relevant to the Flyers against those guys is a decidedly unfair one. Especially given the volume of hockey that Meltzer does watch, he isn't like a lot of the folks that just watch whatever team their covering (he watches other teams, international hockey, etc.).

It's not a matter of questioning McKenzie's (or any of the other's) intentions and intelligence. He simply cannot devote the time to watching the Flyers, because he's responsible for watching all the other teams to one degree or another. Particularly at TSN, where they are decidedly biased towards the 6 Canadian teams in their coverage.

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01-14-2011, 04:05 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
You don't know them well. Trust me, they know the players and they watch the tape for "work purposes" we watch as "fans" and our media guys watch it "looking for a story".

However, I agree that the "opposition media" know nothing about the FLyers. IE. IF I am watching a Boston vs. Flyers telecast, the announcers are lucky if they know have to pronunce the names of the players. Just like last night Richards setup Zherdev's goal. I'm like, 15 not 18 - Richards is the one with the "C" on his jersey. So I agree with you, but I wouldn't lump Mckenzie in that category.
Edwards could not name one player yesterday. Called Nodl, Richards
briere--- Richards etc all night

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01-14-2011, 04:06 PM
  #47
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The reason Carter isn't getting 40 goals anymore is because of how deep this team is. He isn't "the guy" anymore! You don't get 40-50 goals unless you are always first PP, on the ice to end games and playing in all key situations and with the guys who are there to set you up. Carter is kind of our third center now in a true three line team, you ain't gettin 50 goals in that situation. IT is impressive he is scoring at a 35 goal clip in this situation if you ask me.
Ah, the reason he isn't on 40 goal pace is because his shooting % is 9.4. He's on pace for 343 SOG this year. When he scored 46, he had 342 SOG with a 13.5% shooting clip.

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01-14-2011, 04:39 PM
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It's quite simple. Move Richards to the wing. Richards has proven his abilities on the wing at the international level, and not only proven himself, but excelled. People can argue all they want against doing it, but the Briere line isn't being touched, and two players abilities are being wasted.

Hartnell-Briere-Leino
Nodl-Giroux-Richards
JVR-Carter-Zherdev
Carcillo-Betts-Powe

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01-14-2011, 05:18 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
If Carter was relentless like that more often and used his body I would have zero complaints with him as a player.
he would be Ryan Kessler, or the Jeff Carter we thought he might develop to be a few years ago... but alas he is neither

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01-14-2011, 06:14 PM
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It's quite simple. Move Richards to the wing. Richards has proven his abilities on the wing at the international level, and not only proven himself, but excelled. People can argue all they want against doing it, but the Briere line isn't being touched, and two players abilities are being wasted.

Hartnell-Briere-Leino
Nodl-Giroux-Richards
JVR-Carter-Zherdev
Carcillo-Betts-Powe
So, the solution is to move the best natural center on the team to the wing?

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