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Old
01-14-2011, 06:35 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
So, the solution is to move the best natural center on the team to the wing?
Yes. Richards can play well enough on the right wing that his play doesn't take a big a drop of as carter or giroux. Both of these guys need to be in the middle. Richards is still a damn good shutdown player, and will still put on points on the wing.

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01-14-2011, 06:44 PM
  #52
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Yes. Richards can play well enough on the right wing that his play doesn't take a big a drop of as carter or giroux. Both of these guys need to be in the middle. Richards is still a damn good shutdown player, and will still put on points on the wing.
Yes, except you just nuked about 50% of his value as a shutdown player.

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01-14-2011, 10:12 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Yes, except you just nuked about 50% of his value as a shutdown player.
Which would be completely okay if you can get 100 % value out of Richards, Giroux, & Carter as offensive players.

Richie is the weakest on draws. His game should translate to the wing better than either Roo's or Carter's. I understand that taking your best defensive center and moving him to the wing seems borderline insane, but when taken in the context of our situation, it seem well worth a shot.

You were so insistent back in September that the Briere line probably wouldn't continue to be so productive and that Briere would be the one shuffling back to the wing. Clearly you were wrong there.

If it can't be Briere, it has to be one of Richie, Giroux, or Carter. The last two have been extensively tried at wing and just look so much better at center ice. Why not just try Richie on the wing to see if it works. Stranger things have happened.

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01-14-2011, 10:29 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by mja View Post
Which would be completely okay if you can get 100 % value out of Richards, Giroux, & Carter as offensive players.

Richie is the weakest on draws. His game should translate to the wing better than either Roo's or Carter's. I understand that taking your best defensive center and moving him to the wing seems borderline insane, but when taken in the context of our situation, it seem well worth a shot.

You were so insistent back in September that the Briere line probably wouldn't continue to be so productive and that Briere would be the one shuffling back to the wing. Clearly you were wrong there.

If it can't be Briere, it has to be one of Richie, Giroux, or Carter. The last two have been extensively tried at wing and just look so much better at center ice. Why not just try Richie on the wing to see if it works. Stranger things have happened.
Lets get something straight.

Richards is, by far, the best all around CENTER on this team... and it isn't even close. He's going to win a Selke in his career most likely. He was a flat out BEAST defensively last year (I mean, we're talking a truly remarkable season).

Moving him is a waste of the best forward on this team. He's the leading scorer on this team. Best playmaker on this team. Best defensive center on this team.

You want to shift him to center so Giroux can play center, and give away a TON defensively. Richards is +0.97 per 60 minutes, Giroux is +0.34.

It's a really, really bad idea. Giroux isn't as good as people think he is, and Richards is much better than people seem to appreciate (remarkably).

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01-14-2011, 10:38 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Lets get something straight.

Richards is, by far, the best all around CENTER on this team... and it isn't even close. He's going to win a Selke in his career most likely. He was a flat out BEAST defensively last year (I mean, we're talking a truly remarkable season).

Moving him is a waste of the best forward on this team. He's the leading scorer on this team. Best playmaker on this team. Best defensive center on this team.

You want to shift him to center so Giroux can play center, and give away a TON defensively. Richards is +0.97 per 60 minutes, Giroux is +0.34.

It's a really, really bad idea. Giroux isn't as good as people think he is, and Richards is much better than people seem to appreciate (remarkably).
You are the Ken Hitchcock of Hfboards. I understand the importance of defense, really I do, but I also understand the importance of having skill players be productive offensively. I understand the importance of chemistry on lines.

Look at the Briere line. That line should be a wreck defensively, and yet it isn't. Because the line just works.

Carter and Giroux on the wing just doesn't work. I know you want Giroux to work on the wing. I wouldn't mind him working on the wing. But it doesn't seem to be happening.

And you aren't replacing Richie with Giroux. You are replacing Richie with Carter.

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01-14-2011, 10:40 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by mja View Post

You were so insistent back in September that the Briere line probably wouldn't continue to be so productive and that Briere would be the one shuffling back to the wing. Clearly you were wrong there.
Clearly....

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Briere has 11 points - six goals and five assists - in his last six games. The center's line has combined for a staggering 17 goals and 16 assists in the last nine games.

Read more: http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...#ixzz1B4kQp6qF
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01-15-2011, 12:14 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Lets get something straight.

Richards is, by far, the best all around CENTER on this team... and it isn't even close. He's going to win a Selke in his career most likely. He was a flat out BEAST defensively last year (I mean, we're talking a truly remarkable season).

Moving him is a waste of the best forward on this team. He's the leading scorer on this team. Best playmaker on this team. Best defensive center on this team.

You want to shift him to center so Giroux can play center, and give away a TON defensively. Richards is +0.97 per 60 minutes, Giroux is +0.34.

It's a really, really bad idea. Giroux isn't as good as people think he is, and Richards is much better than people seem to appreciate (remarkably).
Amen.

*goes back into hiding from Richards topics*

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01-15-2011, 01:04 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Lets get something straight.

Richards is, by far, the best all around CENTER on this team... and it isn't even close. He's going to win a Selke in his career most likely. He was a flat out BEAST defensively last year (I mean, we're talking a truly remarkable season).

Moving him is a waste of the best forward on this team. He's the leading scorer on this team. Best playmaker on this team. Best defensive center on this team.

You want to shift him to center so Giroux can play center, and give away a TON defensively. Richards is +0.97 per 60 minutes, Giroux is +0.34.

It's a really, really bad idea. Giroux isn't as good as people think he is, and Richards is much better than people seem to appreciate (remarkably).
Richards is one of the most underrated players in the league. Selke level defense combined with 70 points is incredible. You really need to be generating offense on a Stamkos/Crosby/Sedin like level to counteract mediocre defense.

That's why Richards is far and away better than Giroux. They'll score about the same (Giroux will almost assuredly outpace Richards in the future) but Richards will put Giroux to shame in terms of GAON/60. There are times when that stat isn't useful but it is very useful when the player that has the favorable number ALSO has the heaviest defensive load.

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01-15-2011, 01:11 AM
  #59
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Can someone explain to me how Richards, Briere, Carter and Hartnell can stay on the same team? With Leino and Nodl and Giroux making more money next year....
Carter to me is worth way more to this team... If he was not on it. He could get this team exactly what it needs.... In net, on D.... and at forward....
Carter should be getting 20-23 minutes a night. He's not. You pay him more than he will ever achieve with you guys...
Philly will never win the cup with this ensemble of forwards. Richards doesn't move.... Teams don't want Briere at his price...Carter or Hartnell has to go if they are to become a serious contender. Philly assume teams will want Briere... NOT HAPPENING. CARTER OR HARTNELL.... Realistically Carter...
You guys can be happy with making top 4 all ya want... maybe ever once every 5-7 years in making the finals... You still got no chance of winning. Changes need to be made.
Always liked the flyers, especially with the legion of doom... Hope they aren't happy with just competing...They cannot win with this team!
About time someone said it

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01-15-2011, 01:21 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
Can someone explain to me how Richards, Briere, Carter and Hartnell can stay on the same team? With Leino and Nodl and Giroux making more money next year....
Carter to me is worth way more to this team... If he was not on it. He could get this team exactly what it needs.... In net, on D.... and at forward....
Carter should be getting 20-23 minutes a night. He's not. You pay him more than he will ever achieve with you guys...
Philly will never win the cup with this ensemble of forwards. Richards doesn't move.... Teams don't want Briere at his price...Carter or Hartnell has to go if they are to become a serious contender. Philly assume teams will want Briere... NOT HAPPENING. CARTER OR HARTNELL.... Realistically Carter...
You guys can be happy with making top 4 all ya want... maybe ever once every 5-7 years in making the finals... You still got no chance of winning. Changes need to be made.
Always liked the flyers, especially with the legion of doom... Hope they aren't happy with just competing...They cannot win with this team!
About time someone said it
Mr. Hollywood, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

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01-15-2011, 01:30 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by mja View Post
You are the Ken Hitchcock of Hfboards. I understand the importance of defense, really I do, but I also understand the importance of having skill players be productive offensively. I understand the importance of chemistry on lines.

Look at the Briere line. That line should be a wreck defensively, and yet it isn't. Because the line just works.

Carter and Giroux on the wing just doesn't work. I know you want Giroux to work on the wing. I wouldn't mind him working on the wing. But it doesn't seem to be happening.

And you aren't replacing Richie with Giroux. You are replacing Richie with Carter.
Then why are you moving our best offensive forward out of the position he's played his entire life... has produced points over the last few years regardless of whatever **** sandwich of linemates you put with him.

Also... Giroux grew up playing RW. He looks just *ing fine playing RW. He was beginning to struggle at C before they moved him to RW for the stretch. He's looked very good on Richards' wing whenever they put him there.

Moreover... the team is about 3x better with Richards on the ice as a C than they are with Giroux at C.

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01-15-2011, 01:34 AM
  #62
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Personally, I'd never ever move Richards from center on this team. If he's in the olympics on a line centered by Crosby...sure, bump him to left wing. But for Philly's NHL purposes, he is an incredible center.

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01-15-2011, 01:36 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by mja View Post
You are the Ken Hitchcock of Hfboards. I understand the importance of defense, really I do, but I also understand the importance of having skill players be productive offensively. I understand the importance of chemistry on lines.

Look at the Briere line. That line should be a wreck defensively, and yet it isn't. Because the line just works.

Carter and Giroux on the wing just doesn't work. I know you want Giroux to work on the wing. I wouldn't mind him working on the wing. But it doesn't seem to be happening.

And you aren't replacing Richie with Giroux. You are replacing Richie with Carter.
Well, it isn't a very good defensive line. The only folks that have played a lower QUALCOMP than that line are Betts, Shelley, and JVR. Despite that, Briere and Hartnell are 8th and 9th amongst the forwards in GAON/60. That being said, Leino is a good backchecker, and say what you want about Hartnell but he efforts on defense.

They've kept up an impressive scoring clip, which has kept 'em riding high... it isn't because they're all that good defensively.

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01-15-2011, 01:44 AM
  #64
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I say they just swap them (Carter and Giroux) when things get stale.

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01-15-2011, 01:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
Can someone explain to me how Richards, Briere, Carter and Hartnell can stay on the same team? With Leino and Nodl and Giroux making more money next year....
Carter to me is worth way more to this team... If he was not on it. He could get this team exactly what it needs.... In net, on D.... and at forward....
Carter should be getting 20-23 minutes a night. He's not. You pay him more than he will ever achieve with you guys...
Philly will never win the cup with this ensemble of forwards. Richards doesn't move.... Teams don't want Briere at his price...Carter or Hartnell has to go if they are to become a serious contender. Philly assume teams will want Briere... NOT HAPPENING. CARTER OR HARTNELL.... Realistically Carter...
You guys can be happy with making top 4 all ya want... maybe ever once every 5-7 years in making the finals... You still got no chance of winning. Changes need to be made.
Always liked the flyers, especially with the legion of doom... Hope they aren't happy with just competing...They cannot win with this team!
About time someone said it

If I understand this correctly, you claim that having too much goalscoring talent that is also capable of competent defensive play will prevent Philly from ever getting a cup, and that we should keep Hartnell and trade....CARTER!?

do what now?

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01-15-2011, 05:24 AM
  #66
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Mr. Hollywood, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Stop looking at me swannnnnnnnn!


Look, Giroux and Carter are going to be on this team a long time, and yet neither is in a position they are comfortable with. Lets face it, Giroux with Carter has been a train wreck, just like people said it would be.

While you lose some of the ability of Richards down the middle, you gain the productivity of having Giroux and Carter in the middle of the ice. Giroux can be scarily dominant at times in the middle for a guy as small as he is. Carter, being the one man army, just need muckers in the corners, and guys that will stand infront of the net.

So if you are asking, would i rather have Richards, Carter and giroux at their current productions, or would i drop Richies production to see an increase in the other two. Only one choice for me.

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01-15-2011, 06:43 AM
  #67
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Then why are you moving our best offensive forward out of the position he's played his entire life... has produced points over the last few years regardless of whatever **** sandwich of linemates you put with him.

Also... Giroux grew up playing RW. He looks just *ing fine playing RW. He was beginning to struggle at C before they moved him to RW for the stretch. He's looked very good on Richards' wing whenever they put him there.

Moreover... the team is about 3x better with Richards on the ice as a C than they are with Giroux at C.
I've already explained why I'd *EXPERIMENT* with Richards on the wing.

I suspect that Richards could be much more effective on the wing than either of the other two. It isn't a case of Carter or Giroux being better centers than Richards. It is a case of Carter and Giroux being better centers than wingers, and Richards being a far better winger than either of them.

Giroux was dominant for the first twenty games as a centerman. You may think he looks fine on the wing - and I'll say this, he looks better than Carter does there, particularly when he's with Richie - but he performs better offensively at center.

Last night he was at center ice, and put in a dominant performance.

The only reason you can't follow me down this road is that you have pre-determined notions of what a hockey team should look like, and philosophically you hold sound defensive play above offensive production, which is fine until you start to willfully ignore the reality of our situation.

The Briere line isn't being broken up any time soon. If Richie continues as a center, that leaves one center ice spot for two guys that even the coach feels play better at center (the position Giroux played growing up is irrelevant). We aren't trading any of the four anytime soon.

Why don't we try a line with Giroux at center and Richards on the wing? If it doesn't work, you switch them right back. If it does, you've solved the problem of having 4 scoring line centers for three lines. If it doesn't work, you are right back where you started, with one of Carter or Giroux spending his time on the wing, not being as productive offensively as he could be and looking somewhat uncomfortable. There is nothing to be lost here.

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01-15-2011, 06:55 AM
  #68
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I've already explained why I'd *EXPERIMENT* with Richards on the wing.
You don't experiment with your sexuality and you don't experiment with Mike Richards.

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01-15-2011, 07:07 AM
  #69
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Well, it isn't a very good defensive line. The only folks that have played a lower QUALCOMP than that line are Betts, Shelley, and JVR. Despite that, Briere and Hartnell are 8th and 9th amongst the forwards in GAON/60. That being said, Leino is a good backchecker, and say what you want about Hartnell but he efforts on defense.

They've kept up an impressive scoring clip, which has kept 'em riding high... it isn't because they're all that good defensively.
The best defense is a good offense. My only point is that line was supposed to be a TRAIN WRECK defensively and they are nothing of the sort, despite having our worst defensive center spearheading the unit (a guy who is supposed to be so bad that you argued in the off-season that he would have to be moved to wing).

None of them have Selkes in their future, but they are playing competently enough in their end. In the end the line works despite their deficiencies, because their strengths far outweigh them. We've effectively maximized the production we can get out of all three guys.

That's all I'm looking to do with Giroux, Carter, and Richards. I'm looking to maximize their production. Giroux could do a PPG at center. Carter can score 40 + goals. Both can absolutely terrorize the opposition. I'm not sure either guy can do that on the wing. I suspect Richie can do a PPG and play Selke-quality defense at either position. If that's the case, try him at wing and see if it makes magic. If it doesn't, that's fine. It can't hurt to try it.

I'm pretty sure you feel Carter is also an excellent defensive center, if not to the level of Richards. I agree. I also agree Giroux isn't as good defensively as Richards, but I also think he is at worst average in that area and that he'll continue to make strides. I also think having Richards being on Giroux's flank would make the line an above average line defensively. So your objections about the drop off in defense are noted but exaggerated.

You are looking at things on paper, let's look at them on the ice, which can quite often have results that are far, far different than those you projected on paper.

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01-15-2011, 07:13 AM
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You don't experiment with your sexuality and you don't experiment with Mike Richards.
Says who? We've moved everyone else all over the place, why not Richards?

What's going to happen? He's suddenly going to forget how to play defense? We'll let in 10 goals a game? It'll disrupt the chemistry of the team and send them into a tailspin for the rest of the season? Really, what? What is this horrifically negative consequence that could possibly result in trying Richie out on the wing for a game or two?

I actually think the biggest fear out of the "you don't experiment with Mike Richards" camp is that it actually might WORK.

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01-15-2011, 07:27 AM
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Getting away from the "Richie wing" thing which is retarded, I am honestly baffled why Giroux is back at C with Carter on the wing. I mean, that line may have success anyways just because all 3 of those guys are really good players, but Carter is our best FO guy and our 2nd best defensive forward (behind Richie obviously), why is he on wing?

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01-15-2011, 07:29 PM
  #72
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Richards' game is best suited to centre ice. Always has been and always will be for a number of reasons already named in this thread.

You don't **** with it just so you can get your fantasy team with Carter or Giroux more points. Besides, is scoring goals a problem for this team the way things are? Not at all. The only reason you want to keep Carter and Giroux at centre is so your favourite players get more points.

Richards is the best centre on this team and one of the best in the league, bordering on best "two-way" centre in the league (as in getting more first place votes for the Selke than Datsyuk). It's asinine to suggest he should move so Giroux can get more points. I'm sorry, but Claude Giroux has not earned the right to bump Mike Richards, his captain, to a position he has never played.

It's obvious the coach feels this way, as has every other coach he's ever played for (besides a very tiny sample size in the Olympics where Toews is easily the better faceoff guy so it made sense).

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01-15-2011, 08:11 PM
  #73
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the insticnt to move giroux to center is because of his great playmaming abilities but who do we have at the wing to capitalise? carter and richards are both better suited towards center, zherev is another playmaker and nodl is a complimentary player. with gagne gone he simply doesnt have a sniper to feed so shifting him over is really pointless. the marginal improvement in giroux is simply wated with this teams personnell

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01-15-2011, 08:16 PM
  #74
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the insticnt to move giroux to center is because of his great playmaming abilities but who do we have at the wing to capitalise? carter and richards are both better suited towards center, zherev is another playmaker and nodl is a complimentary player. with gagne gone he simply doesnt have a sniper to feed so shifting him over is really pointless. the marginal improvement in giroux is simply wated with this teams personnell
It's actually Jody Shelley that has the playmaiming abilities...

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01-15-2011, 08:24 PM
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Carter is and will always be a C... How many times are we gonna try the W thing until they realize it's not gonna work?


This is simple, Carter doesn't need great wingers just give him the 2 worst top 9 wingers (Nodl/JVR/Zherdev). Let him have the middle of the ice and tell one 1 of the other 2 guys to park his @ss in front of the goaltender for the screen or to gather up the garbage.

One thing's for sure the Carter and Giroux combo doesn't work almost as bad as him and Richie together. Put Giroux on Richards line.

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