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#43: Flyers @ Bruins -Thursday, Jan. 13, 2011

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01-14-2011, 07:18 PM
  #201
Beef Invictus
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That's assuming he actually keeps the pace up.

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01-14-2011, 07:20 PM
  #202
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anyone else think carter looked like he had the flu in his interview?

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01-14-2011, 07:20 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Here's my problem with Carle.

We all already know that he can be a giveaway machine at times, granted. However, the guy is described as an offensive d-man with good offensive skill yet he hasn't put up numbers worthy of that description since 06-07...four seasons ago. That's the only time he's ever even scratched 40 points in his career (and barely at that). Since then his best season is with us in 09-10 with 35 points. Which is okay, granted, but not someone I would describe as a good offensive d-man or good enough to make up for his defensive lapses.

He's also been terribly ineffective on the PP and needed to be sheltered by Pronger last season.

Even this season he's not on pace for 40 points despite his semi-recent hot streak. He has 20 points in 43 games. Which is on pace for just below 40.
Don't get me wrong... if they traded Carle for something decent tomorrow, I wouldn't weep. I think he's quite replaceable on this roster. However, if we're comparing him to Coburn I don't think Carle is giving away much of anything to Coburn as far as positive value.

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01-14-2011, 07:38 PM
  #204
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Don't get me wrong... if they traded Carle for something decent tomorrow, I wouldn't weep. I think he's quite replaceable on this roster. However, if we're comparing him to Coburn I don't think Carle is giving away much of anything to Coburn as far as positive value.
In that case, you're just comparing one flawed mediocre d-man to another. Both are second pairing guys who need to be anchored by a top d-man to play any higher then that. Both have tools to be much better and both have their flaws. Coburn takes idiotic penalties and can have bad positioning at times. Carle puts up more points, but he can be a horrible giveaway machine at times.

Don't really care for either that much to be honest. Coburn is a tiny bit cheaper and has been here longer, so he has that going for him I guess.

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01-14-2011, 08:21 PM
  #205
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People expect too much out of second pairing defensemen. We have two pretty damn good ones. You could really make a decent case that we have two # 1's and two #2's.

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01-14-2011, 08:26 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
People expect too much out of second pairing defensemen. We have two pretty damn good ones. You could really make a decent case that we have two # 1's and two #2's.
No you couldn't. A no. 2 doesn't look like a newborn fawn if he's off by himself.

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01-14-2011, 08:29 PM
  #207
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I'd argue that we have 2 #1s and 3 #2s, though Carle is on the bottom end as far as #2s go. What I like about our D core is that we have a sliding scale off orientation. Going from Most offensive to least offensively oriented D-Men:
Carle - Meszaros - Timonen - Pronger - Coburn - O'Donnell.

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01-14-2011, 08:31 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
I'd argue that we have 2 #1s and 3 #2s, though Carle is on the bottom end as far as #2s go. What I like about our D core is that we have a sliding scale off orientation. Going from Most offensive to least offensively oriented D-Men:
Carle - Meszaros - Timonen - Pronger - Coburn - O'Donnell.
Carle, Meszaros, and Coburn are no. 3s at best... really more like no. 4s since I'm not sure I'd want any of 'em leading a 2nd pairing on their own.

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01-14-2011, 08:37 PM
  #209
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It boggles my mind that anyone would consider Coburn or Carle a number top pairing d-man (which is what the term number two implies). They're number three d-men on their best days and number four d-men most days.

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01-14-2011, 11:20 PM
  #210
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A lot of you fail to realize how many mediocre defenseman fill out top 4's across the league. We should count ourselves lucky to have Coburn & Carle.

They have their weaknesses, but it seems many people don't see their strengths.

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01-14-2011, 11:24 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by mja View Post
A lot of you fail to realize how many mediocre defenseman fill out top 4's across the league. We should count ourselves lucky to have Coburn & Carle.

They have their weaknesses, but it seems many people don't see their strengths.
Coburn and Carle have great physical tools... their problem is hockey IQ. There are a lot of guys that get by with a lot less in the tool box with 'em, and are much more reliable players because of it.

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01-14-2011, 11:30 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Coburn and Carle have great physical tools... their problem is hockey IQ. There are a lot of guys that get by with a lot less in the tool box with 'em, and are much more reliable players because of it.
A lot of those great physical tools allow them to overcome their hockey IQ's. Coburn can skate his way out of many of his mistakes, Carle can pass his way out of them. Not all of them, mind you. But enough of them that their strengths in my opinion make up for their weaknesses.

There are a lot of **** defensemen in this league. A lot. There's plenty of guys in top 4's around the league with neither the physical tools nor the box. It's getting to be like pitching in baseball. I think we don't really know what we have here.

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01-15-2011, 08:57 AM
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mja View Post
A lot of those great physical tools allow them to overcome their hockey IQ's. Coburn can skate his way out of many of his mistakes, Carle can pass his way out of them. Not all of them, mind you. But enough of them that their strengths in my opinion make up for their weaknesses.

There are a lot of **** defensemen in this league. A lot. There's plenty of guys in top 4's around the league with neither the physical tools nor the box. It's getting to be like pitching in baseball. I think we don't really know what we have here.
Carle passes his way into mistakes. That's the problem.

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01-15-2011, 01:52 PM
  #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Carle, Meszaros, and Coburn are no. 3s at best... really more like no. 4s since I'm not sure I'd want any of 'em leading a 2nd pairing on their own.
C'mon Jester. Take a look around the league and see what everyone else's #3 and #4 guys look like . . . between Coburn, Carle and Mezsaros we have two guys playing like average #2's a good amount of the time.

And since when is the standard for being a good #3 being able to carry the second pairing on your own? It's a pairing...as in two players contributing. The standard for being a good #3 should not be that you're able to carry around a ****** #4 on your back and still do well. That's what #1 defensemen do.

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01-15-2011, 06:59 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Carle passes his way into mistakes. That's the problem.
Absolutely. If he could cut down on needless passes to teammates who couldn't possibly ready for the puck, than we'd have a very, very good defenseman on our hands.

He is able to make passes that other guys can only dream about. Whenever you have a guy like that, some of his passes end up on the wrong stick.

More often than not, they end up on the right stick, and for all of his mistakes, he makes twice as many subtle solid plays.

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01-15-2011, 07:28 PM
  #216
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Here's how I'd rank our defensemen: Pronger, Timonen, Meszaros, Coburn, Carle, O'Donnell, Bartulis, Walker.

I'd struggle to name a better defensive corps around the league. Bartulis would be a #5 on many teams and Meszaros a #2. However, when healthy, Bartulis isn't even playing and Meszaros is on the 3rd pairing. This is the best defense I've seen the Flyers have EVER.

Yes, Coburn and Carle both have their deficiencies, but they are gaining more and more experience as they keep playing. The best we can hope for is for them to develop their games further and hopefully gain some hockey IQ.

I'd say out of Meszaros, Coburn, and Carle, Meszaros has the best shot of ever being a legit #1. That being said, I think Coburn can still develop into a #1 as well, although I never see Carle ever being above a #3. But that's not a bad thing. Not everyone is meant to be a #1 NHL defenseman. Hopefully we can bring home the Cup within the next 2 years, because our depth right now is crazy good for the forwards and defense.

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01-15-2011, 08:35 PM
  #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
C'mon Jester. Take a look around the league and see what everyone else's #3 and #4 guys look like . . . between Coburn, Carle and Mezsaros we have two guys playing like average #2's a good amount of the time.

And since when is the standard for being a good #3 being able to carry the second pairing on your own? It's a pairing...as in two players contributing. The standard for being a good #3 should not be that you're able to carry around a ****** #4 on your back and still do well. That's what #1 defensemen do.
You also need to compare the salaries of other teams' second pairing guys and ours. Hell, you can compared other teams' second pairing salaries and our third pairing salaries.

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01-15-2011, 08:47 PM
  #218
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Carle, Meszaros, and Coburn are no. 3s at best... really more like no. 4s since I'm not sure I'd want any of 'em leading a 2nd pairing on their own.
I think just about every team in this league would have Coburn or Mesz as at least a #3, usually #2. We're quite clearly spoiled.

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01-15-2011, 11:02 PM
  #219
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You also need to compare the salaries of other teams' second pairing guys and ours. Hell, you can compared other teams' second pairing salaries and our third pairing salaries.
True, but I'm not sure what it has to do with my original point, which is that "people expect too much out of second pairing defensemen. We have two pretty damn good ones". That was a general statement about people's assessment of D-men in general. If our second pairing guys get held to a higher standard than other teams' do because of their salaries, that's fine. I think for the most part they all earn their keep (Coburn is probably slightly over paid, on account of his lack of offensive ability).

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01-15-2011, 11:48 PM
  #220
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I think just about every team in this league would have Coburn or Mesz as at least a #3, usually #2. We're quite clearly spoiled.
Ah, Carle and Meszaros were both contract dumps to us... and Coburn is a disaster away from Timonen. If Meszaros was capable of being a top pairing guy, then TB wouldn't have been looking to get rid of him. Carle is brutal defensively.

The teams you are describing are not playoff teams... and they're not playoff teams for a reason.

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01-15-2011, 11:53 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
C'mon Jester. Take a look around the league and see what everyone else's #3 and #4 guys look like . . . between Coburn, Carle and Mezsaros we have two guys playing like average #2's a good amount of the time.

And since when is the standard for being a good #3 being able to carry the second pairing on your own? It's a pairing...as in two players contributing. The standard for being a good #3 should not be that you're able to carry around a ****** #4 on your back and still do well. That's what #1 defensemen do.
Because they're playing with *ing all-world D doing the heavy lifting.

Carle is putting up points, but if you put him on a roster where he really needed to be a "force" for your D, you going to have much confidence in him going out there and playing those hard minutes?

Coburn has been a *ing disaster away from Timonen defensively, and is a complete non-entity offensively (no. 2s that have ZERO offensive game, are defensive studs... do you really think Coburn is a defensive stud?).

If Meszaros was what you are saying he is, he wouldn't be on our roster as TB would have kept him.

What you are witnessing is the influence top-end D like Timonen and Pronger can have down the roster (as well as overall depth). Same thing you see with bullpens in baseball when you have a top flight closer locking it down... all the other relievers are that much better.

And, yes, look around the league... you'll find a lot of D that are far more reliable than Carle and Coburn. Meszaros has been very strong for us, but, as discussed, much of that has come against weaker competition... and, as noted, he struggled when in a top pairing role and that's why he's here in the first place.

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