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Old
01-16-2011, 03:45 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Devilsfanatic View Post
You're a smart fan who understands the adage that you have to give to get. However, your defense core couldn't sustain the loss of Karlsson.
The Primary need for Ottawa is to get someone who can play with Spezza, even if Karlsson is the one that must be traded. Ottawa has a pretty deep defensive prospect pool, it would hurt but I think it would be worth it.

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01-16-2011, 03:50 PM
  #27
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Erik Karlsson for Zach Parise.

Deal.
I'm surprised someone other than a Sens fan on HFboards actually wrote this in seriousness. Considering Parise will warrant a massive pay raise and Karlsson's got a year left at RFA and probably won't warrant as much as Parise (who knows when the time comes at his development rate), the value is decent.

Larsson - Karlsson could be one of the best pairs and/or individual transition defensemen in hockey.

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01-16-2011, 03:55 PM
  #28
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This comes down to if New Jersey wants to pay him, and if they like the top end prospects of this draft. My personal opinion I don't give a guy up who is young offensively talented and proven for a guy who might not pan out. Plus I think Parise gets better. Now I might consider trading Kovalchuk

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01-16-2011, 04:43 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Devilsfanatic View Post
You're a smart fan who understands the adage that you have to give to get. However, your defense core couldn't sustain the loss of Karlsson.
and you don't understand the cap.

If Ottawa spends 7 mill on Parise then arent we back to square one with a ton of money spent on 3 forwards?

Karlsson is still a cheaper alternative for a team in which even Parise alone can't fix.

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01-16-2011, 04:48 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by apice3 View Post
Who knows? We'd rather keep Parise than gamble on a draft pick in hopes that one MIGHT be equivalent to Parise. We have one top 4 pick this year which is plenty. Devils won't deal Parise unless Karlsson and OTT's 1st are BOTH included. Even at that, something substantial has to be added to the point where Ottawa will not want to go through with it.

Parise will be a Devil, simply because we'd be requesting overpayment that no team will meet. There is no need for us to deal him to begin with.
So Karlsson + 4th over-all pick + something substantial for Parise?

Yeah, no thanks.

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01-16-2011, 04:49 PM
  #31
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He's really overrated.
So is Rundblad.

Anyway, I would never do this deal with the Senators.

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01-16-2011, 04:56 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Asquaredx2 View Post
So Karlsson + 4th over-all pick + something substantial for Parise?

Yeah, no thanks.
shoot, and we really wanted to trade parise to you guys. well, i guess we'll keep our best player and you'll keep your landeskog/cotourier/RNH, something substantial and Karlsson

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01-16-2011, 04:57 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
I'm surprised someone other than a Sens fan on HFboards actually wrote this in seriousness. Considering Parise will warrant a massive pay raise and Karlsson's got a year left at RFA and probably won't warrant as much as Parise (who knows when the time comes at his development rate), the value is decent.

Larsson - Karlsson could be one of the best pairs and/or individual transition defensemen in hockey.
Only on HF can someone consider a top 10 player in the league be of equal value to a top 15 NHL "prospect," mainly because of a contract. Not to mention that the contract status won't be an issue. If the Penguins can have Malkin and Crosby for nearly 9 mil each, the Devils can afford Kovy and Parise for less than 7 each. It's really not as difficult as most make it out to be. Cap space won't and CAN'T be an issue, as it never should when it comes to a franchise player.

That being said, Karlsson is not fair value for Parise - he's simply a good start. Karlsson + OTT 1st(+) would be the starting price. Still, the Devils will not want to trade their proven elite winger for future pieces and the Senators will not want to trade their future for Parise. Parise will be a Devil, these threads will stop, and Devil fans will finally be able to come to this site without reading these ridiculous proposals.

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01-16-2011, 04:59 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Asquaredx2 View Post
So Karlsson + 4th over-all pick + something substantial for Parise?

Yeah, no thanks.
If you don't want to meet the request, then we'll keep our proven star. It doesn't really bother us. If you read my entire post, instead of just the opening lines, you'll see I explained why a deal won't go down. When's the last time you saw an elite RFA-to-be get who wants to remain with his current club get traded? When you find an example, let me know.

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01-16-2011, 05:14 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by apice3 View Post
Only on HF can someone consider a top 10 player in the league be of equal value to a top 15 NHL "prospect," mainly because of a contract. Not to mention that the contract status won't be an issue. If the Penguins can have Malkin and Crosby for nearly 9 mil each, the Devils can afford Kovy and Parise for less than 7 each. It's really not as difficult as most make it out to be. Cap space won't and CAN'T be an issue, as it never should when it comes to a franchise player.

That being said, Karlsson is not fair value for Parise - he's simply a good start. Karlsson + OTT 1st(+) would be the starting price. Still, the Devils will not want to trade their proven elite winger for future pieces and the Senators will not want to trade their future for Parise. Parise will be a Devil, these threads will stop, and Devil fans will finally be able to come to this site without reading these ridiculous proposals.
I wasn't the one that said it...I was just making the justification of a Jersey fan that said it. How the value is not quite as bad as someone like you would think. You're not going to get many offers with a better key piece in it then Karlsson would be in that deal...especially considering your need for a PPQB...you'd be getting a guy that could be the best one in time.

All depends on what direction the Devils plan to go in.

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01-16-2011, 05:17 PM
  #36
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Karlsson + 4th Overall + Mid Level Prospect

When will people realize that if you want to get a superstar player, than you have to give up substantial pieces to get him

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01-16-2011, 06:24 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
You're not going to get many offers with a better key piece in it then Karlsson would be in that deal...
That's the thing. We don't want offers. Parise isn't going anywhere.

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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
especially considering your need for a PPQB...you'd be getting a guy that could be the best one in time.
Our lack off PPQB isn't as bad as some suggest, but I understand what you're saying. In the last few weeks, we've been trying out Zajac and it's working fairly well. He's great at keeping the puck in the zone and our PP is clicking as a result.

The problem with our PP was when we had Kovy doing it, simply because he has a laser of a shot. He was abysmal at keeping the puck in front of the blueline and on shorthanded breakouts, he was the main defender which is a complete disaster waiting to happen. We need him at the left circle waiting for one-timers. That's when he'll score his 40 goals that we're waiting for.

I'd like to get another player that can man the blueline with Zajac, and while Karlsson is a nice asset, it comes at the price of Parise. I'd much rather keep Parise, look for the 2nd PPQB through the draft (hint: Larsson), and move on from there. The Devils aren't rebuilding - they're retooling - and I promise they will be back atop the standings much faster than many think. Depending on Larsson's (assumed) impact, they could be contending for the Cup as early as next year. Realistically, I expect 2012-13 to be a very promising year for us, once Rolston, White, and Brodeur come off the books and we can spend some money.

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Old
01-16-2011, 06:26 PM
  #38
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Regin + Rundblad + top 5 pick?

Insane overpayment by Ottawa.

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01-16-2011, 06:37 PM
  #39
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Seems like NJ fans and everyone else are totally under rating Rundblad. He may end up the better player then Karlsson. He may be comparable offensively and better defensively.

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01-16-2011, 06:38 PM
  #40
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http://hfboards.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=30254797

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Originally Posted by Hale The Villain View Post
Regin + Rundblad + top 5 pick?

Insane overpayment by Ottawa.
A player who averages a point once every 3 games, a prospect who's never touched the NHL ice, and a promising player to be named later for one of the game's top 3 wingers? It's not hating on your prospects, it's the undervaluing of an elite player.

Hypothetically let's say we put a trade in with the Bruins earlier in the year. This is the equivalent of receiving Toronto's 1st*, Alex Urbom, Alexander Vasyunov for a 4 million dollar version Jason Spezza.

*I say Toronto's 1st because there's a big difference between 1st overall and 5th overall. Think Alex Ovechkin vs. Blake Wheeler difference.

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01-16-2011, 06:54 PM
  #41
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Nj can't trade parise for a top 5 pick, because they only have two seasons to rebuild because there going to be giving up a 1st in 2013 and there more likely to be in a higher spot and less likely be pissed off giving up a top pick with parise, larsson, and yakupov(or the best center in 2012) than having having three blue chip prospects that no one knows when they'll break out(which means the devils would give up a top 10 pick than a top 20 pick)

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01-16-2011, 07:18 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Devilsfanatic View Post
Erik Karlsson for Zach Parise.

Deal.
Oh man I'd do that in a second. I'd sure as hell rather that than the OP's deal.

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Old
01-16-2011, 07:25 PM
  #43
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Oh man I'd do that in a second. I'd sure as hell rather that than the OP's deal.
I wouldn't. I wouldn't trade Karlsson for Parise, straight up.

Defense wins championships, not elite scorers.

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01-16-2011, 07:30 PM
  #44
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I wouldn't. I wouldn't trade Karlsson for Parise, straight up.

Defense wins championships, not elite scorers.
How about an elite scorer who is better defensively? I know for a fact I overrate Karlsson but the amount he is overrated on this board still amazes me sometimes.

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01-16-2011, 07:33 PM
  #45
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How about an elite scorer who is better defensively? I know for a fact I overrate Karlsson but the amount he is overrated on this board still amazes me sometimes.
I agree with you that Parise is the better player *today*. He's one of the better wingers in the game (I wouldn't say top 3, but I'd probably have him comfortably in my top 10).

At the same time, Karlsson's skill at 20 is what makes me say that you can't trade a player like him - because any deal you make will make you look stupid if he ever reaches his potential.

He may not reach it, but since everything he's done suggests he's on track to, I would be very, very hesitant to deal him for anything less than as part of a package to get a potential franchise player (and sorry, I don't view Parise as that).

For example, if the conversation was "Put together a package of players that got you Drew Doughty", then fine, Karlsson can be included in the mix because, you're getting something so valuable back.

Parise is an outstanding talent, but there's a cap, and frankly I don't think the price of Karlsson (who is on pace for 50 points from the blue line in our WORST year) makes sense.

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01-16-2011, 07:38 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Pyke View Post
I agree with you that Parise is the better player *today*. He's one of the better wingers in the game (I wouldn't say top 3, but I'd probably have him comfortably in my top 10).

At the same time, Karlsson's skill at 20 is what makes me say that you can't trade a player like him - because any deal you make will make you look stupid if he ever reaches his potential.

He may not reach it, but since everything he's done suggests he's on track to, I would be very, very hesitant to deal him for anything less than as part of a package to get a potential franchise player (and sorry, I don't view Parise as that).

For example, if the conversation was "Put together a package of players that got you Drew Doughty", then fine, Karlsson can be included in the mix because, you're getting something so valuable back.

Parise is an outstanding talent, but there's a cap, and frankly I don't think the price of Karlsson (who is on pace for 50 points from the blue line in our WORST year) makes sense.
If you don't see Parise as a franchise player I can see why you'd say no. I absolutely see him as a franchise guy, he's as close to prime Alfie as there is in the NHL imo. I wrongfully assumed you valued Parise as a franchise guy, thats my bad.

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01-16-2011, 07:43 PM
  #47
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If you don't see Parise as a franchise player I can see why you'd say no. I absolutely see him as a franchise guy, he's as close to prime Alfie as there is in the NHL imo. I wrongfully assumed you valued Parise as a franchise guy, thats my bad.
Nah, I like Parise, but I view him as more of an elite scorer along the lines of Gaborik (minus injury troubles).

I don't know that he's got the same intangibles that I like in my franchise guys... I like the Toews/Richards type centers (Mike, not Brad) over the scoring guys. I also am a firm believer that, given the choice, you go with a #1 center over a #1 winger.

In comparative importance, I'd rank it:

#1 Defenseman
#1 Center
#1 Goalie
#1 Winger

So I have issues, especially for a team like Ottawa (who is re-tooling at best, rebuilding at worst) trading for Parise (at the price of Karlsson), at this juncture.

It's not an indictment of Parise, it's more a reflection of my personal assessment's of value/where the organization/players are.

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01-16-2011, 07:54 PM
  #48
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Nah, I like Parise, but I view him as more of an elite scorer along the lines of Gaborik (minus injury troubles).

I don't know that he's got the same intangibles that I like in my franchise guys... I like the Toews/Richards type centers (Mike, not Brad) over the scoring guys. I also am a firm believer that, given the choice, you go with a #1 center over a #1 winger.

In comparative importance, I'd rank it:

#1 Defenseman
#1 Center
#1 Goalie
#1 Winger

So I have issues, especially for a team like Ottawa (who is re-tooling at best, rebuilding at worst) trading for Parise (at the price of Karlsson), at this juncture.

It's not an indictment of Parise, it's more a reflection of my personal assessment's of value/where the organization/players are.
Parise is pretty good in his own end and is an incredible forechecker. Probably the best amongst elite forwards in the game.

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01-16-2011, 07:56 PM
  #49
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I agree with you that Parise is the better player *today*. He's one of the better wingers in the game (I wouldn't say top 3, but I'd probably have him comfortably in my top 10).

At the same time, Karlsson's skill at 20 is what makes me say that you can't trade a player like him - because any deal you make will make you look stupid if he ever reaches his potential.
Parise is a top 10 forward, IMO. I'm not sure if you can name 3 wingers better. I'll give you the obvious Ovechkin, but what about after that? The other wingers in the conversation may rival him in offense (Gaborik, D. Sedin, etc.) but I highly doubt the ones that are better offensively are better defensively as well. Parise is a complete player. Aside from that, I agree with everything you wrote above.

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He may not reach it, but since everything he's done suggests he's on track to, I would be very, very hesitant to deal him for anything less than as part of a package to get a potential franchise player (and sorry, I don't view Parise as that).
While I understand the hesitancy to trade a player like Karlsson, I'm clueless as to how you don't label Parise a franchise player. Completely clueless. He has put up 94 and 82 points the last two years, on a defensive oriented team mind you, while finishing 12th and 8th in Selke voting. He's put up 30+ goals every year since his 22nd birthday, scoring 45 and 38 the last two years, and doing it in addition to possessing leadership qualities and an unmatchable desire to win. That fits the profile of franchise player, IMO. I would politely ask you to explain your view, which you're more than entitled to have, of why Parise isn't a franchise player.

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Originally Posted by Pyke View Post
For example, if the conversation was "Put together a package of players that got you Drew Doughty", then fine, Karlsson can be included in the mix because, you're getting something so valuable back.

Parise is an outstanding talent, but there's a cap, and frankly I don't think the price of Karlsson (who is on pace for 50 points from the blue line in our WORST year) makes sense.
Cap reasons are another story. Take it from a Devils fan, I understand cap issues. That's the reason why I would take Parise over Malkin (a likely 2-3 million dollar difference for similar production, although Malkin is definitely the better player.) If that's the main reason you wouldn't do this trade, then I understand, but if it's because you don't view Parise as a franchise player, then I'm stumped.

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01-16-2011, 08:01 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by apice3 View Post
Parise is a top 10 forward, IMO. I'm not sure if you can name 3 wingers better. I'll give you the obvious Ovechkin, but what about after that? The other wingers in the conversation may rival him in offense (Gaborik, D. Sedin, etc.) but I highly doubt the ones that are better offensively are better defensively as well. Parise is a complete player. Aside from that, I agree with everything you wrote above.

While I understand the hesitancy to trade a player like Karlsson, I'm clueless as to how you don't label Parise a franchise player. Completely clueless. He has put up 94 and 82 points the last two years, on a defensive oriented team mind you, while finishing 12th and 8th in Selke voting. He's put up 30+ goals every year since his 22nd birthday, scoring 45 and 38 the last two years, and doing it in addition to possessing leadership qualities and an unmatchable desire to win. That fits the profile of franchise player, IMO. I would politely ask you to explain your view, which you're more than entitled to have, of why Parise isn't a franchise player.

Cap reasons are another story. Take it from a Devils fan, I understand cap issues. That's the reason why I would take Parise over Malkin (a likely 2-3 million dollar difference for similar production, although Malkin is definitely the better player.) If that's the main reason you wouldn't do this trade, then I understand, but if it's because you don't view Parise as a franchise player, then I'm stumped.
I'd have to take some time to think about the list of wingers. Don't get me wrong, I *really* like Parise. I'm not saying I think he's some second rate guy... I've called him an "elite" player several times in my posts.

I don't think he's the answer for the Senators though. Adding Parise (and subtracting Karlsson) seems like it's a lateral move at best, even if Parise is better [today] then Karlsson [which, I am sure he is]. I'm not sure Parise will have the better career, but as you fairly point out, his numbers are awful impressive. I also want to add, the fact I wouldn't trade Karlsson for Parise doesn't mean I think the Devil's would trade Parise for Karlsson; there's a lot of factors that go into the analysis.

Your point about Parise and Malkin is a fair one, and I think emphasizes part of the reality of the cap world. You need to make decisions that factor in all sorts of considerations; sometimes it's not just what you get but what you give up. The problem is, even if Malkin is a superior player to Parise (something I would dispute, by the way. I've never been a fan of Malkin's, and frankly, I'd rather Parise ), giving up other assets to get him doesn't seem to make sense since you wouldn't be able to effectively replace those assets. You need elite players on ELC's or second contracts in today's cap world. That has value more than ever before.

I just think, given where the Sens are, and given what Karlsson "might" be, I would not want to make the move. I don't mean any disrespect to Parise.

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