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Old
01-16-2011, 08:14 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Pyke View Post
I'd have to take some time to think about the list of wingers. Don't get me wrong, I *really* like Parise. I'm not saying I think he's some second rate guy... I've called him an "elite" player several times in my posts.

I don't think he's the answer for the Senators though. Adding Parise (and subtracting Karlsson) seems like it's a lateral move at best, even if Parise is better [today] then Karlsson [which, I am sure he is]. I'm not sure Parise will have the better career, but as you fairly point out, his numbers are awful impressive. I also want to add, the fact I wouldn't trade Karlsson for Parise doesn't mean I think the Devil's would trade Parise for Karlsson; there's a lot of factors that go into the analysis.

Your point about Parise and Malkin is a fair one, and I think emphasizes part of the reality of the cap world. You need to make decisions that factor in all sorts of considerations; sometimes it's not just what you get but what you give up. The problem is, even if Malkin is a superior player to Parise (something I would dispute, by the way. I've never been a fan of Malkin's, and frankly, I'd rather Parise ), giving up other assets to get him doesn't seem to make sense since you wouldn't be able to effectively replace those assets. You need elite players on ELC's or second contracts in today's cap world. That has value more than ever before.

I just think, given where the Sens are, and given what Karlsson "might" be, I would not want to make the move. I don't mean any disrespect to Parise.
I agree with the majority of this post. I just didn't understand how you didn't view Parise as a franchise player, and from what it sounds like, you do see him as a franchise player, just not for the Senators. Being that I'm not a Senators fan, I'm in no position to dispute this. However, if all NHL players were dumped into re-draft of all 30 NHL teams, I'm certain Parise would be taken in the top 5-15, specifically with the mentality that he'd be a team's franchise player.

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01-16-2011, 08:19 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by apice3 View Post
I agree with the majority of this post. I just didn't understand how you didn't view Parise as a franchise player, and from what it sounds like, you do see him as a franchise player, just not for the Senators. Being that I'm not a Senators fan, I'm in no position to dispute this. However, if all NHL players were dumped into re-draft of all 30 NHL teams, I'm certain Parise would be taken in the top 5-15, specifically with the mentality that he'd be a team's franchise player.
I don't know if he's go in the top 5-15.

In no particular order:
Crosby
Ovechkin
Stamkos
Miller
Lundquist
Doughty
Toews
M. Richards
E. Staal
Keith
H. Sedin
Nash
Getzlaf
Zetterberg
Chara
.....

I mean, I agree he probably would get picked before #30 is up; so maybe in that sense he's a franchise player. I don't know. In any event, the point is just, I don't think Karlsson for Parise makes sense.

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01-16-2011, 08:25 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Pyke View Post
I don't know if he's go in the top 5-15.

In no particular order:
Crosby
Ovechkin
Stamkos
Miller
Lundquist
Doughty
Toews
M. Richards

E. Staal
Keith
H. Sedin
Nash
Getzlaf
Zetterberg
Chara

.....

I mean, I agree he probably would get picked before #30 is up; so maybe in that sense he's a franchise player. I don't know. In any event, the point is just, I don't think Karlsson for Parise makes sense.
I'd personally take him above the bolded, some because of age, but that's just me. Then again, off the top of my head, you probably missed a couple names. Still, top 15-20 at the absolute worst, IMO.

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01-16-2011, 08:28 PM
  #54
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if Parise is a franchise palyer then so is Spezza

if Parise wants 7 mill ottawa just cant afford it right now.


And also for ppl saying you have to give to get. Ottawa fans know just how hard it is to trade someone who has a big salary. I am sure Parise is looking for a big payday. Though a Brain Burke or Milbury do come around from time to time

Yes It would take Karlsson+ to get him from Lou RIGHT NOW but Ottawa certainly won't do that

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01-16-2011, 08:29 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by apice3 View Post
I'd personally take him above the bolded, some because of age, but that's just me. Then again, off the top of my head, you probably missed a couple names. Still, top 20 at worst, IMO.
I don't believe you build a franchise around a winger. I don't think that's how you win Stanley Cups...

I mean, if you look at the cup winning teams, they always have #1 D and #1 C, but #1 winger's tend to be optional... Pittsburgh emphasized this more than most clubs. Look at the teams that have had dominant wingers in the last decade:

-Calgary (Iginla)
-Columbus (Nash)
-Atlanta (Hossa/Heatley + Kovalchuk)
-Edmonton (Hemsky? I don't know. No elite center though)
-Washington (Ovechkin)

You look at the cup winners, they have elite centers.
-Detroit (Datsyuk/Zetterberg [Even if Z plays LW often])
-Anaheim (Getzlaf)
-Pittsburgh (Crosby/Malkin)
-Chicago (Toews)

Maybe I'm oversimplifying, but I do think it's a consideration.

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01-16-2011, 08:32 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by HSF View Post
if Parise is a franchise palyer then so is Spezza
Spezza would be a franchise player if he stayed healthy and had some talent around him. Lots of people throw him under the bus for reasons unknown to me.

That being said, Spezza isn't half the defensive player Parise is.

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Old
01-16-2011, 08:38 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by apice3 View Post
Spezza would be a franchise player if he stayed healthy and had some talent around him. Lots of people throw him under the bus for reasons unknown to me.

That being said, Spezza isn't half the defensive player Parise is.
In fairness to Jason Spezza, he has been on the first unit PK this year and is arguably one of our most improved players. He's beginning to see a career transition that I think mirrors that of another superstar, Steve Yzerman. Yzerman was renowned for his high-flying offense early in his career, and he toned it down and became a better 2 way player later on. I feel like Spezza, after not being named to the Olympic team, realized he had to be better in his own zone. I really think he's emerging as a leader.

He's not as GOOD as Yzerman was (really, how many are? as much as it pains me to say that... SAKIC'S BETTER! there, I feel like my obligation to my franchise is done), but I feel like there's a lot of similarities in the evolution of their game.

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Old
01-16-2011, 08:42 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Pyke View Post
I don't believe you build a franchise around a winger. I don't think that's how you win Stanley Cups...

I mean, if you look at the cup winning teams, they always have #1 D and #1 C, but #1 winger's tend to be optional... Pittsburgh emphasized this more than most clubs. Look at the teams that have had dominant wingers in the last decade:

-Calgary (Iginla)
-Columbus (Nash)
-Atlanta (Hossa/Heatley + Kovalchuk)
-Edmonton (Hemsky? I don't know. No elite center though)
-Washington (Ovechkin)

You look at the cup winners, they have elite centers.
-Detroit (Datsyuk/Zetterberg [Even if Z plays LW often])
-Anaheim (Getzlaf)
-Pittsburgh (Crosby/Malkin)
-Chicago (Toews)

Maybe I'm oversimplifying, but I do think it's a consideration.
You are definitely oversimplifying it. Also, Getzlaf wasn't as impactful in 2006(I think that was the year) as he is now, and Kane can be labeled as the franchise player just as much as Toews is. In addition, like you said, Z is often slotted at LW. There's too many factors.

While yes a franchise center is certainly better than a franchise winger, you can't say a franchise winger won't bring you a cup. First, franchise wingers are more rare, IMO, than centers. Also, the unsuccessful teams listed above have more issues than wingers being their primary means of scoring.

Atlanta and Columbus are still fairly new expansion teams and expecting them to win a Cup this early is unfair. Edmonton has gotten to a finals and Calgary has come knocking at the door a few times, IIRC. Also, those teams have other issues.

Washington, who knows. They've never really had a good goaltender or stud defensive defenseman. With either of those, they'd probably have a Cup right now.

Franchise centers won't win you Cups. Franchise wingers won't lose you Cups. Good TEAMS are what win cups. You need a complete team from 1st line forwards to 3rd pair defensemen. Think about it, a franchise center is going to be seeing 25 minutes MAX per game. What about the other 35 minutes? You certainly need more than just one player to win a Stanley Cup.

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01-16-2011, 09:02 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by apice3 View Post
You are definitely oversimplifying it. Also, Getzlaf wasn't as impactful in 2006(I think that was the year) as he is now, and Kane can be labeled as the franchise player just as much as Toews is. In addition, like you said, Z is often slotted at LW. There's too many factors.

While yes a franchise center is certainly better than a franchise winger, you can't say a franchise winger won't bring you a cup. First, franchise wingers are more rare, IMO, than centers. Also, the unsuccessful teams listed above have more issues than wingers being their primary means of scoring.

Atlanta and Columbus are still fairly new expansion teams and expecting them to win a Cup this early is unfair. Edmonton has gotten to a finals and Calgary has come knocking at the door a few times, IIRC. Also, those teams have other issues.

Washington, who knows. They've never really had a good goaltender or stud defensive defenseman. With either of those, they'd probably have a Cup right now.

Franchise centers won't win you Cups. Franchise wingers won't lose you Cups. Good TEAMS are what win cups. You need a complete team from 1st line forwards to 3rd pair defensemen. Think about it, a franchise center is going to be seeing 25 minutes MAX per game. What about the other 35 minutes? You certainly need more than just one player to win a Stanley Cup.
In a cap world though, do you take the franchise center or winger? I agree franchise wingers are more rare, but I'm not sure if that makes them more valuable, since having them doesn't seem to translate to more cups won.

Also, I don't think I oversimplified to the degree to which you skewered my post - I did oversimplify some for the sake of time, but there is some merit to the position.

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01-16-2011, 09:02 PM
  #60
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All you need to know:

Zach Parise average pick in fantasy hockey...

9.3


I'm pretty sure his real life hockey value is even more than his fantasy value. Top 10 player for sure.

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01-16-2011, 09:03 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Ilya Kulachuk View Post
All you need to know: Zach Parise average pick in fantasy hockey: 9.3
Not sure how that's relevant. I'd take Kovalchuk in fantasy hockey before Toews but Toews before Kovalchuk in an NHL "Fantasy/Fictional" draft.

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01-16-2011, 09:24 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Pyke View Post
Not sure how that's relevant. I'd take Kovalchuk in fantasy hockey before Toews but Toews before Kovalchuk in an NHL "Fantasy/Fictional" draft.
Yeah but Parise is one of the best two way skilled players in the league.

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01-16-2011, 09:41 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Pyke View Post
In a cap world though, do you take the franchise center or winger? I agree franchise wingers are more rare, but I'm not sure if that makes them more valuable, since having them doesn't seem to translate to more cups won.

Also, I don't think I oversimplified to the degree to which you skewered my post - I did oversimplify some for the sake of time, but there is some merit to the position.
In the cap world, hell in the capless world, I take the better player. If I had the choice between (just throwing out random rankings) the 5th best player in the league who happens to be a winger or the 11th best player in the league who happens to be a center, I'm taking the winger.

And I didn't mean to skewer your post. I have a habit of getting caught up in things and just rambling.

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01-16-2011, 09:42 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Pyke View Post
Not sure how that's relevant. I'd take Kovalchuk in fantasy hockey before Toews but Toews before Kovalchuk in an NHL "Fantasy/Fictional" draft.
Everyone knows fantasy rankings are highly accurate. We all know Mike Green is the best defenseman in the NHL.

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01-16-2011, 10:06 PM
  #65
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No Karlsson, no thanks.
This.

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01-16-2011, 11:20 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by RyderFan1 View Post
At least make that pick a 1st... This would be awful asset management by the Devils... Not a good idea to trade your high-end offensive player for a mediocre one
FAIL!

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Originally Posted by Zhark Attack View Post
shoot, and we really wanted to trade parise to you guys. well, i guess we'll keep our best player and you'll keep your landeskog/cotourier/RNH, something substantial and Karlsson
Sure.

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Originally Posted by DevsFan7545 View Post
Karlsson + 4th Overall + Mid Level Prospect

When will people realize that if you want to get a superstar player, than you have to give up substantial pieces to get him
By the time Karlsson reaches 23 he'll be a superstar.

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01-16-2011, 11:29 PM
  #67
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Why wouldn't they just let another team sign Parise and get four 1sts?

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01-17-2011, 01:24 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Flyers Fan Forever View Post
Why wouldn't they just let another team sign Parise and get four 1sts?
If it comes to that, and NJ believes they will receive that offer sheet for 9 million or something ridiculous, I'm sure they would let him go.

After the Burkie-Chairelli incident, though, I'd be surprised to see any GM gamble on Parise to the tune of 4 firsts. What if he DiPietro's out and hurts himself in the years to come?

I think a Kessel style offer sheet is probable in terms of compensation. I don't see any GM going the four first round pick route to ante up, however the trade route, like in my original post, is also a possibility if a GM believes he has to make a better offer than two firsts, a second, and a third.

Hence my original question that has virtually gone unanswered... is this offer of a lottery pick, David Rundblad, and Peter Regin, or a variation of it, a better option than two firsts, a second, and a third for NJ?

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01-17-2011, 01:29 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by LeTigre View Post
If it comes to that, and NJ believes they will receive that offer sheet for 9 million or something ridiculous, I'm sure they would let him go.

After the Burkie-Chairelli incident, though, I'd be surprised to see any GM gamble on Parise to the tune of 4 firsts. What if he DiPietro's out and hurts himself in the years to come?

I think a Kessel style offer sheet is probable in terms of compensation. I don't see any GM going the four first round pick route to ante up, however the trade route, like in my original post, is also a possibility if a GM believes he has to make a better offer than two firsts, a second, and a third.

Hence my original question that has virtually gone unanswered... is this offer of a lottery pick, David Rundblad, and Peter Regin, or a variation of it, a better option than two firsts, a second, and a third for NJ?
Easily. David Rundblad + Lottery Pick easily beat two firsts and a 2nd.

I'm not crazy about Rundblad + Regin + Pick for Parise given the cap hit it's going to be and that I still hope Regin can salvage value...but then, you do have to give to get.

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01-17-2011, 01:30 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by LeTigre View Post
Hence my original question that has virtually gone unanswered... is this offer of a lottery pick, David Rundblad, and Peter Regin, or a variation of it, a better option than two firsts, a second, and a third for NJ?
Depends on what team signs the offer sheet. Islander offer sheet? I probably take theirs. An LA offer sheet? I take this trade.

Either way, it doesn't matter because a Parise offer sheet of this caliber would be matched and because Parise wouldn't be traded for the package you're providing.

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01-17-2011, 05:28 AM
  #71
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Only on HF can someone consider a top 10 player in the league be of equal value to a top 15 NHL "prospect," mainly because of a contract. Not to mention that the contract status won't be an issue. If the Penguins can have Malkin and Crosby for nearly 9 mil each, the Devils can afford Kovy and Parise for less than 7 each. It's really not as difficult as most make it out to be. Cap space won't and CAN'T be an issue, as it never should when it comes to a franchise player.

Most of the recent Cup winners and Finalists have had some of their best players under ELC's in the years in which they were successful, so that they could maximize their cap space to make that big push with a better team than a $60M cap can provide. Most of those same teams have been torn apart since and/or haven't reached those same heights now that their team is actually worth closer to $60M... just like everybody elses.

Starting next season, Parise will never be good value again. A lottery pick putting up similar offense with much lesser defensive play in his 2nd or 3rd year at a base salary under $1M helps teams win Cups more than equal value players.

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Old
01-17-2011, 08:49 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by LeTigre View Post
To New Jersey
2011 4th overall pick (assumption)
David Rundblad
Peter Regin

To Ottawa
Zach Parise

Do NJ fans value this package (or a variation of it) more than:

a) Re-signing Parise to an estimated 6.5-7 million a year.

b) Receiving two first round, one second round, and one third round compensatory picks based on not matching the offer sheet of any team but Ottawa.

Do Ottawa fans see this as a viable means to acquire Parise?

a) Absolutely not. I prefer a signed Parise, at that cap hit, over the proposed package from Ottawa. Trading Zach would be a huge step back for this organization, unless we're getting a player of similar value back, which in this deal, we're not.

b) Yes, I would rather the package of players and that early pick to the offer sheet compensation.

These trade proposals for Parise are hilarious. Let me summarize them all in a few steps:

1. Fan of another team reads/hears Parise might be available because of his RFA status and NJ's poor record;
2. Fan goes to capgeek and drools over how much better their top six looks with Parise in it;
3. Fan thinks, "well, we could give up some of those unproven prospects we have, and maybe a couple of draft picks. Heck, we could have basically the same good core from this year, and ADD Parise! Let me go post a proposal on hfboards!;"
4. Fans of NJ, having seen this poop many times before, respond negatively;
5. Fan of another team gets insulted, and attempts to convince himself and others that the package he offered was "more than fair." After all, Parise isn't that great...

Until next time folks...

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01-17-2011, 09:29 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by williamirven View Post
a) Absolutely not. I prefer a signed Parise, at that cap hit, over the proposed package from Ottawa. Trading Zach would be a huge step back for this organization, unless we're getting a player of similar value back, which in this deal, we're not.

b) Yes, I would rather the package of players and that early pick to the offer sheet compensation.

These trade proposals for Parise are hilarious. Let me summarize them all in a few steps:

1. Fan of another team reads/hears Parise might be available because of his RFA status and NJ's poor record;
2. Fan goes to capgeek and drools over how much better their top six looks with Parise in it;
3. Fan thinks, "well, we could give up some of those unproven prospects we have, and maybe a couple of draft picks. Heck, we could have basically the same good core from this year, and ADD Parise! Let me go post a proposal on hfboards!;"
4. Fans of NJ, having seen this poop many times before, respond negatively;
5. Fan of another team gets insulted, and attempts to convince himself and others that the package he offered was "more than fair." After all, Parise isn't that great...

Until next time folks...
Thanks for answering. But I'm not sure how this thread fits in to your template. This was simply a poll or question, and I didn't invest an ounce of emotion or homerism into it. The point is to get a feel for the way NJ would handle this, and according to you and most others, it seems they'll sign him regardless of the cap implications.

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01-17-2011, 09:30 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by apice3 View Post
Depends on what team signs the offer sheet. Islander offer sheet? I probably take theirs. An LA offer sheet? I take this trade.

Either way, it doesn't matter because a Parise offer sheet of this caliber would be matched and because Parise wouldn't be traded for the package you're providing.
Thanks for the straight answer.

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01-17-2011, 09:47 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by LeTigre View Post
Thanks for answering. But I'm not sure how this thread fits in to your template. This was simply a poll or question, and I didn't invest an ounce of emotion or homerism into it. The point is to get a feel for the way NJ would handle this, and according to you and most others, it seems they'll sign him regardless of the cap implications.
Devils fans will react negatively to proposals for Parise that do not include core players from the other squad.

We are not "rebuilding."

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