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Old
01-17-2011, 11:15 AM
  #101
Andros777
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I don't see why we couldn't sign him to a standard entry level deal with a lot of bonuses. Each year, if he doesn't make the starting lineup, he goes back to the KHL, without breaching the contract. We've had many signed players playing in Europe.

I wonder if it would ever be possible for the Habs to buy a KHL team and make it our associate Russian team so that more players would want to be drafted and signed by the Habs and play there.

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01-17-2011, 11:15 AM
  #102
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Sure.......write in the clause the Habs won't send him to Hamilton. They can send him to Wheeling instead. LOL

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01-17-2011, 11:16 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Maybe, but the best players don't always make it out of camp.
EXACTLY!

Sometimes, the best players don't make it. Sometimes, a player takes time to adapt or you need to adjust the salary cap. Sometimes, you have to prove yourself.

If Emelin wants to come to Montreal, he needs to play by the same rules as everyone else.

Like I tried to say earlier, say we were talking about this summer of 2010. Montreal agrees to Emelin's rules. He comes to the team and the team wants him to play in the AHL with Cunneyworth after Andrei Markov comes back healthy. Emelin plays his "go home safely" card and returns to Russia. Then Markov gets hurt. Then Gorges goes down for the year. If he was still in the AHL, he would have returned after Markov got hurt. Or even returned after O'Byrne was traded. But no, we lost a perfectly capable NHL blueliner because "Stupid Pierre Gauthier let this guy go home instead of play in the AHL and wait for a call up".

Tell me you wouldn't feel that way and would be all about players comfort and such.

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01-17-2011, 11:27 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
Okay. So why does Emelin even consider it at all? If he likes Russia, stay in Russia. Stay where you are comfortable. Don't try to tease things and say you will only come over if it's on your terms.
Why not ? We are not the slaves of our employers... it goes both ways... I always negociate the terms of my arrival in a new working place, it's all part of the process.

I mean what do you want... that we return to pre-CBA rules where the owners not only owned the teams, but the players also ?

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01-17-2011, 11:33 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
Why not ? We are not the slaves of our employers...
Emelin has a choice: stay in the KHL and have his rights expire and continue playing in the KHL (or try to be a free agent when Montreal's rights expire) or come and play here like everyone else.

How is that being a slave? That's ton of choice. Same choice every NHL player gets. I guess we should just forget about drafting players and let everyone play where they want to. And hey, what's the need of contracts? Not enough choice for players!

See, I can play the, "Let's exaggerate things to ridiculous extents" game. It's quite easy.

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01-17-2011, 11:38 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
Emelin has a choice: stay in the KHL and have his rights expire and continue playing in the KHL (or try to be a free agent when Montreal's rights expire) or come and play here like everyone else.
Exactly... and this is what Emelin will do if you don't bend to his request... which would be a very bad managerial decision.

I was pointing out the last part of your quote about not trying "to get here on your own terms"... it's not exageration...

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01-17-2011, 11:43 AM
  #107
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Bottom line for me is the guy hasn't played an NHL game? Why does he get the sense of entitlement to dictate that type of clause on a contract? Sure it's a risk for him. It has been for a many European player not given that option. Life is full of risks. I can appreciate wanting to minimize the risk but not in that way.

Hamilton is part of the Habs' farm system for a reason. I thought it was because non-performers could go learn what the organization expects of them so they could excel at the next level. To me it could maybe set a precedent that would not be in the team's best interest which is what I'm against more than anything.

Gimme the guy that understands the consequences of underperforming.

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01-17-2011, 11:47 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
From that article by Alessandro which we already know we can trust, Emelin's mentioned the reason why it still didn't come over. He says that the Habs didn't want to add a clause to let him go back to Europe if he'd be demoted in the AHL. Now it's pretty important to make the distinction 'cause at one point, Alessandro means "stuck in the AHL" but Emelin states "demoted" which to me are 2 different things. But let's pretend he just doesn't want to be demoted.

You're in charge....would you prefer not seeing him at all than to give him such clause?

I know. I would personnally try to convince him that playing in the AHL for a little while would be the best in order to get himself in the NA type of game....and to a point, they have to find the appropriate words to make him believe that....but if he still doesn't want to....what would you decide to do?

http://sportshaze.com/russia/khl/ale...in-the-nhl-567

Where does he got off having such an ego??? He's never even played NHL hockey for 1 game, who says he can even hack the style of play anyways???

I'd rather see him rot in Russia for his whole career than to give him a clause like that in order to get him to come play for the Habs. He might not even be able to keep up with the AHL style of hockey, let alone the NHL.

Any player that thinks that highly of himself needs to be ignored IMO. If he wants to join a team the same ways every other player joins a team and work for him playing time and fit into the style the team plays, then sure...give him a chance, but telling the team how he wants things to work.....that doesn't fly with me....leave him in Russia until he changes his rotten attitude!!! Hey Emelin....there is no "I" in "team"!!!

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01-17-2011, 11:53 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
Bottom line for me is the guy hasn't played an NHL game? Why does he get the sense of entitlement to dictate that type of clause on a contract? Sure it's a risk for him. It has been for a many European player not given that option. Life is full of risks. I can appreciate wanting to minimize the risk but not in that way.

Hamilton is part of the Habs' farm system for a reason. I thought it was because non-performers could go learn what the organization expects of them so they could excel at the next level. To me it could maybe set a precedent that would not be in the team's best interest which is what I'm against more than anything.

Gimme the guy that understands the consequences of underperforming.
There is no sense of entitlement! He isn't asking to be guaranteed a spot, he is asking for the freedom to go back to Russia if the team decides he isn't good enough.

What does it cost the team to agree to these term? Nothing.

What assets do we have to give up to acquire this guy? None

What is the downside if he doesn't make it? There is no downside.

What are the potential benefits? We could get a guy who could on the third pairing, watching the occasional game from the press box and maybe working his way up to the second pairing. I fail to see the risk in signing him.

Why is everyone so hung up on making him pay some kind of price or do some kind of penance before skating in the NHL? It feels like their are too many egos involved in this debate.

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01-17-2011, 11:54 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Pleky Roks View Post
Where does he got off having such an ego??? He's never even played NHL hockey for 1 game, who says he can even hack the style of play anyways???

I'd rather see him rot in Russia for his whole career than to give him a clause like that in order to get him to come play for the Habs. He might not even be able to keep up with the AHL style of hockey, let alone the NHL.

Any player that thinks that highly of himself needs to be ignored IMO. If he wants to join a team the same ways every other player joins a team and work for him playing time and fit into the style the team plays, then sure...give him a chance, but telling the team how he wants things to work.....that doesn't fly with me....leave him in Russia until he changes his rotten attitude!!! Hey Emelin....there is no "I" in "team"!!!
That's not how things works. We are not in a movie

If Emelin can make the team he will have a contract and help the team wins , winning is the only thing that matter

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01-17-2011, 11:55 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Pleky Roks View Post
Where does he got off having such an ego??? He's never even played NHL hockey for 1 game, who says he can even hack the style of play anyways???

I'd rather see him rot in Russia for his whole career than to give him a clause like that in order to get him to come play for the Habs. He might not even be able to keep up with the AHL style of hockey, let alone the NHL.

Any player that thinks that highly of himself needs to be ignored IMO. If he wants to join a team the same ways every other player joins a team and work for him playing time and fit into the style the team plays, then sure...give him a chance, but telling the team how he wants things to work.....that doesn't fly with me....leave him in Russia until he changes his rotten attitude!!! Hey Emelin....there is no "I" in "team"!!!
I have trouble with fans with this kind of an attitude. It seems you are the one with the ego.

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01-17-2011, 12:21 PM
  #112
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This seems like a no-brainer to me.

Low-risk High-reward move in my opinion.

Bottom line is if Alex Picard can play on this team then Im pretty sure Emelin can find a spot. At least he cant be any worse, and if he is, send him packing!

I'm assuming there may be CBA & cap issues though.

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01-17-2011, 12:54 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Quarantesix View Post
That's not how things works. We are not in a movie

If Emelin can make the team he will have a contract and help the team wins , winning is the only thing that matter

Thats up to the Habs organization to decide if he helps the team and how he should be handled. If they think he would benefit from playing 1 full season in Hamilton to adjust to the NHL game, then thats up to the Habs organization, not Emelin.

He's being a little unreasonable all for the sake of money. If the AHL paid their players more money, he wouldn't care.

He might be the best player to ever come to the NHL for all I know, and if so, thats great....but I just feel players should all have to go through the same ropes and have no special treatment.

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01-17-2011, 01:21 PM
  #114
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There is no sense of entitlement! He isn't asking to be guaranteed a spot, he is asking for the freedom to go back to Russia if the team decides he isn't good enough.

What does it cost the team to agree to these term? Nothing.

What assets do we have to give up to acquire this guy? None

What is the downside if he doesn't make it? There is no downside.

What are the potential benefits? We could get a guy who could on the third pairing, watching the occasional game from the press box and maybe working his way up to the second pairing. I fail to see the risk in signing him.

Why is everyone so hung up on making him pay some kind of price or do some kind of penance before skating in the NHL? It feels like their are too many egos involved in this debate.
Try this scenario.................

Emelin gets his wish.

He makes the roster.

He butts heads with Jacques Martin.

Media circus erupts in Montreal.

Can't demote so he goes back to KHL.

Habs are minus a d-man.

Not only that, then they have to call up one from Hamilton leaving Hamilton shorthanded. So let's just sign a bunch of guys who don't want to go to the AHL and when they all need grooming they can all go back to where they came from and nobody plays in Hamilton. It sets a precedent I'm not fond of setting.

Emelin: "Give me the clause and I'll dictate something else later." I say "No thanks"...........move onto someone else who would be okay with working at his game if necessary within the Habs organization.

So this is how the D roster is shaping up............

Subban
Spacek
Gorges (has a gimpy knee and hopefully will be ready.)
Markov (see above)
Emelin: may or may not stay here
Maybe sign Sami Salo and Sheldon Souray???

Egos at work? LOL

Emelin vs. Jacques Martin. Subban even spent time in the organization and has had a learning experience. And this guy is gonna come in cold turkey?

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01-17-2011, 01:33 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Pleky Roks View Post
Thats up to the Habs organization to decide if he helps the team and how he should be handled. If they think he would benefit from playing 1 full season in Hamilton to adjust to the NHL game, then thats up to the Habs organization, not Emelin.

He's being a little unreasonable all for the sake of money. If the AHL paid their players more money, he wouldn't care.

He might be the best player to ever come to the NHL for all I know, and if so, thats great....but I just feel players should all have to go through the same ropes and have no special treatment.
not every player should go to the same route, they have the choice to do what they think it's best for them. Emelin is 24 played in the KHL if he's good enough for the NHL next year I see no problem for him to be in the club right away. If he's not ready and have to be play AHL you can't force him to go there if he don't want to be there. After that the organisation choose what kind of contract they want to give him

It's not special treatment you try to have the best team possible to win the cup. Emelin choose KHL over AHL it's his choice, will see if he will be ready for NHL if he come here next year

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01-17-2011, 02:10 PM
  #116
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Would we have to officially release him for him to go back or is it just he comes and goes as he pleases? Would there be a limit on how many games he spends in the pressbox before we have to release him? Could be an annoyance and distraction, could pan out.

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01-17-2011, 02:19 PM
  #117
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I don't get what's the problem with some people about giving him that clause. I mean, nothing forces us to keep him in the NHL if he doesn't pan out and he's well established in the KHL. I understand why he wouldn't want to go ride buses in the AHL where he will be less paid too.

As for Dman short if he leaves, we can just call someone up OR sign someone ala MA Bergeron this year. Let's say we resign the Wiz and Markov.

Markov Subban Wiz Weber Spacek Gorges Emelin

That's 7 dman without resigning Gill or Hamrlik. I have a hard time seeing how it would cripple us giving it a try with Emelin.

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01-17-2011, 02:48 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleky Roks View Post
Thats up to the Habs organization to decide if he helps the team and how he should be handled. If they think he would benefit from playing 1 full season in Hamilton to adjust to the NHL game, then thats up to the Habs organization, not Emelin.

He's being a little unreasonable all for the sake of money. If the AHL paid their players more money, he wouldn't care.

He might be the best player to ever come to the NHL for all I know, and if so, thats great....but I just feel players should all have to go through the same ropes and have no special treatment.
Did you even read the article?


Quote:
“It wasn’t a matter of money. [...]Of course I know that they aren’t going to give me an NHL spot at once. But this clause is very important to me. But I still have the desire to play in the NHL.” [...] "I can’t watch full games as they are too late in the night, but I do watch highlights. In North America there is a higher level of organization. High-level accommodation and training levels in Russia are guaranteed only by a few clubs, the rest, not much so. In the NHL it’s not like that. Every player in the NHL is provided with all the necessary. And this is an important difference.”
You and No Needed Team have some issues. What is wrong with the clause he's asking? He's not forcing anybody to give him a spot, he's just saying he doesn't want to travel in crappy buses, when he's making millions and flying in planes in the KHL.

Both of you saying that maybe he won't make the team out of camp is ridiculous. The guy is a top dman in the KHL, which is, and a by some margin, better than the AHL, it's obvious he's gonna make the top6. Hell, in my book, I take him before Weber.

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01-17-2011, 03:11 PM
  #119
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Emelin's is in the top 20 in icetime/game in the KHL so he's playing top pairing minutes.

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01-17-2011, 03:18 PM
  #120
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Basically, it's like asking a chick out.

You can either do it and risk being shut down or getting a date.
Or you can not ask at all, you will have as much as you did in the beginning, nothing.

Now some people apparently don't want to ask the girl out for fear that she will break up with you down the line and will cost you a shot at a lesser attractive girl.

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01-17-2011, 03:19 PM
  #121
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he's just saying he doesn't want to travel in crappy buses, when he's making millions and flying in planes in the KHL.
1. If he's good enough to make the team, he won't have to.

2. What makes him more important than P.K. Subban? Subban had to travel in crappy buses. Should Subban have been allowed to just take off to the KHL if he didn't make the Canadiens roster off the bat last season?

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Both of you saying that maybe he won't make the team out of camp is ridiculous. The guy is a top dman in the KHL, which is, and a by some margin, better than the AHL, it's obvious he's gonna make the top6. Hell, in my book, I take him before Weber.
I never said he wasn't going to make the team. I said if he didn't, if our depth pushed him to eight d-man, he should still work hard in the AHL and wait for his spot to come up just like EVERY OTHER PLAYER ON THE TEAM. Like I said, what if this was last summer and he bolted in November because he didn't get his spot on the team and then two months later due to injuries we need him up? He's gone in the KHL and we're blaming Gauthier for giving him such a silly clause. The clause supporters seem too afraid to consider that scenario.

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01-17-2011, 03:22 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
1. If he's good enough to make the team, he won't have to.

2. What makes him more important than P.K. Subban? Subban had to travel in crappy buses. Should Subban have been allowed to just take off to the KHL if he didn't make the Canadiens roster off the bat last season?



I never said he wasn't going to make the team. I said if he didn't, if our depth pushed him to eight d-man, he should still work hard in the AHL and wait for his spot to come up just like EVERY OTHER PLAYER ON THE TEAM. Like I said, what if this was last summer and he bolted in November because he didn't get his spot on the team and then two months later due to injuries we need him up? He's gone in the KHL and we're blaming Gauthier for giving him such a silly clause. The clause supporters seem too afraid to consider that scenario.
You don't get it.

If he bolts and we have an injury to a D man..

We are going to put the same player in the same spot that we would've had Emelin not come over.

How is it THAT hard to comprehend? You are adding an asset, if he doesn't make it, he goes away and your organizational depth is the same if you DIDN'T bring him over.

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01-17-2011, 03:23 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
1. If he's good enough to make the team, he won't have to.

2. What makes him more important than P.K. Subban? Subban had to travel in crappy buses. Should Subban have been allowed to just take off to the KHL if he didn't make the Canadiens roster off the bat last season?

Dude, Subban, just like Avtsin, was/is 19-20years old. If Emelin would be saying that at 19 I would tell him to **** off and keep playing in KHL. But, he's 24 and is a top dman in the 2nd best league in the world. I mean, I think he has proved enough to ask for this clause.

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01-17-2011, 03:28 PM
  #124
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How is it THAT hard to comprehend? You are adding an asset, if he doesn't make it, he goes away and your organizational depth is the same if you DIDN'T bring him over.
You commit to a player with special treatment a spot which could goto someone willing to actually work for their spot. If he believes in his own ability, he wouldn't ask for that clause. It removes control from the coach and GM to properly access the team. Emelin playing terrible? Can't send him to the AHL to adapt his game because poor Emelin doesn't like factory cities and team buses.

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Originally Posted by samos View Post
Dude, Subban, just like Avtsin, was/is 19-20years old. If Emelin would be saying that at 19 I would tell him to **** off and keep playing in KHL. But, he's 24 and is a top dman in the 2nd best league in the world. I mean, I think he has proved enough to ask for this clause.
He's proven absolutely nothing in North America. If he's unwilling to work against Brendan Nash, a guy who has busted his butt for the Canadiens over in Hamilton and wants his spot handed to him or he takes his ball and walks home... why does Montreal even want to consider a player like that? Nash and Festerling and Carle have made a commitment to fight in the "trenches of Hamilton" for a spot in Montreal. Emelin hasn't. In other words, Emelin has proven nothing.

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01-17-2011, 03:32 PM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
You commit to a player with special treatment a spot which could goto someone willing to actually work for their spot. If he believes in his own ability, he wouldn't ask for that clause. It removes control from the coach and GM to properly access the team. Emelin playing terrible? Can't send him to the AHL to adapt his game because poor Emelin doesn't like factory cities and team buses.



He's proven absolutely nothing in North America. If he's unwilling to work against Brendan Nash, a guy who has busted his butt for the Canadiens over in Hamilton and wants his spot handed to him or he takes his ball and walks home... why does Montreal even want to consider a player like that? Nash and Festerling and Carle have made a commitment to fight in the "trenches of Hamilton" for a spot in Montreal. Emelin hasn't. In other words, Emelin has proven nothing.
So, you don't think Pittsburgh should've got Evgeni Malkin out of the KHL?

You think he would've left to toil in the AHL?

You take a talented player from his home land and if he makes your team, he sticks, if he doesn't, he goes home.

Brendan Nash is busting his ass because he has to, because he is NORTH AMERICAN. The circumstances are different, you don't handicap your team of a good prospect because you have some ridiculous notion that he hasn't worked hard to be a NHL player. He is, he's doing it in a different developmental league.

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