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Old
01-17-2011, 04:07 PM
  #26
Vatican Roulette
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I keep reading that he shows up to play every night...so does Detroit's bottom 6 players. The only difference is that Neil can(sometimes) win a fight. That's not worth 2 million in cap space and one of Detroit's top prospects.

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01-17-2011, 04:56 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vatican Roulette View Post
I keep reading that he shows up to play every night...so does Detroit's bottom 6 players. The only difference is that Neil can(sometimes) win a fight. That's not worth 2 million in cap space and one of Detroit's top prospects.
Well that and the fact that Neil has 43 more hits than anyone on Detroit's roster. The only bottom 6 forward who is within 70 hits of Neil is Abdelkader who has 100 compared to Neil's 143.

Sometimes win a fight? Come on man, Neil is an excellent light heavy.

I understand not wanting to trade Jarnkrok. I would not want to do that either, but at least give credit where it is due.

Neil would without a doubt fit in with Detroit in a (post 2000) McCarty like role.

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01-17-2011, 05:59 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bileur View Post
Well that and the fact that Neil has 43 more hits than anyone on Detroit's roster. The only bottom 6 forward who is within 70 hits of Neil is Abdelkader who has 100 compared to Neil's 143.

Sometimes win a fight? Come on man, Neil is an excellent light heavy.

I understand not wanting to trade Jarnkrok. I would not want to do that either, but at least give credit where it is due.

Neil would without a doubt fit in with Detroit in a (post 2000) McCarty like role.
I was. I know what Neil brings, he's been in the league long enough.

He's an alright fighter who takes dumb penalties and isn't the greatest of skaters. Yeah, he hits, but you can get what he brings elsewhere without spending 2 mill to ride the pine.

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Old
01-17-2011, 06:35 PM
  #29
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Neil could take on every player on the Wings at the same time, and win.

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Old
01-17-2011, 09:02 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Doctor Goon View Post
Neil could take on every player on the Wings at the same time, and win.
how does that help detroit win the stanley cup?

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Old
01-17-2011, 10:04 PM
  #31
Karlssonlee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bileur View Post
Well that and the fact that Neil has 43 more hits than anyone on Detroit's roster. The only bottom 6 forward who is within 70 hits of Neil is Abdelkader who has 100 compared to Neil's 143.

Sometimes win a fight? Come on man, Neil is an excellent light heavy.

I understand not wanting to trade Jarnkrok. I would not want to do that either, but at least give credit where it is due.

Neil would without a doubt fit in with Detroit in a (post 2000) McCarty like role.
This is the exact same thing I was thinking. He could have a similar role to McCarty. He was a very important role player in their successful playoff runs. Just like Brad May was for Anaheims Stanley cup year.

People on HFboards tend to overvalues picks and prospects.

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01-17-2011, 10:18 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Karlssonlee View Post
This is the exact same thing I was thinking. He could have a similar role to McCarty. He was a very important role player in their successful playoff runs. Just like Brad May was for Anaheims Stanley cup year.

People on HFboards tend to overvalues picks and prospects.
Did McCarty cost $2 mil a year when there was a salary cap? Honest question, I don't know

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Old
01-17-2011, 10:48 PM
  #33
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Id prefer Detroit to stay soft so the Ducks can continue to abuse them

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Old
01-17-2011, 11:21 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Dirk316 View Post
Id prefer Detroit to stay soft so the Ducks can continue to abuse them
As long as Detroit continues to abuse them on the scoreboard, ya know, where it matters.

2-1
4-3
5-2
7-4
3-2
1-4
1-3
4-0
5-4
4-0

Last 10 games Detroit is 8-2 versus the Ducks and has outscored them 36-23

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Old
01-18-2011, 12:10 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vatican Roulette View Post
I was. I know what Neil brings, he's been in the league long enough.
He's an alright fighter who takes dumb penalties and isn't the greatest of skaters. Yeah, he hits, but you can get what he brings elsewhere without spending 2 mill to ride the pine.
No you're still underrating him, Neil does not ride the pine.

Since the lockout, the following are the forwards in the NHL with more than 3 top 10 finishes in hits (among forwards), in parentheses are their salaries :

Brown - 6 times (3.175 million)
Neil - 5 times (2 million)
Ovechkin – 5 times (9.538 million)
Cooke – 4 times (1.8 million)
Ott – 4 times (2.95 million)
Fisher – 3 times (4.2 million, also available if you're interested)
Morrow – 3 times (4.1 million)
Clutterbuck – 3 times (1.4 million, RFA contract)
Hunter – 3 times (2 million)

Hunter has not made the top 10 in several years. Clutterbuck's salary cannot be compared because he signed his contract as an RFA. Cooke is the only one who really makes Neil's contract look bad considering he kills penalties, but he also does not bring some things Neil does.

Neil is more than an "alright" fighter. He can usually take care of all but the the top heavyweights, and can hold his own against those as well. None of the other guys on this list are anywhere near the fighter Neil is. Most of them are better scorers or better defensive players, hence the higher salary, but he clearly brings something very rare to the table among NHL forwards with his mix of fighting ability, hits and ability to take a regular shift. He is not easy to replace.

Also, I know the Red Wings do not put as much value in physical play as some other teams, and IIRC their stat counters are usually pretty stingy with the hits but here are Neil's hit stats since the lockout, with the Red Wings forward leader between parenthesis

2010-2011 - 143 (Abdelkader 100)
2009-2010 - 245 (Helm 188)
2008-2009 - 163 (Kopecky 109)
2007-2009 - 204 (Kopecky 111)
2006-2007 - 288 (Maltby 125)
2005-2006 - 221 (Maltby 118)

Not really the type of player the Wings usually look for but he would bring something that the team has not had in a long time. Something that is absolutely not easy to find.

Again, whether you want him or not is a separate issue, you're entitled to want whichever style of players you want for your team. But he is not some 4th line scrub that can be easily replaced by a random AHL call-up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the banks
how does that help detroit win the stanley cup?
I'd say his momentum changing hits and physical play would help. It certainly sets a tone for a game or a series. He can also help make room for your skill guys and ensure guys like Datsyuk do not have to fight, putting Neil out for the occasional shift with Zetterberg and Datsyuk would calm guys like Perry right down.


Last edited by Bileur: 01-18-2011 at 12:20 AM.
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Old
01-18-2011, 01:19 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the banks View Post
As long as Detroit continues to abuse them on the scoreboard, ya know, where it matters.

2-1
4-3
5-2
7-4
3-2
1-4
1-3
4-0
5-4
4-0

Last 10 games Detroit is 8-2 versus the Ducks and has outscored them 36-23
yeah except in the playoffs Anaheim either beats Detroit and punishes them physically which causes them problems in the next round. Even if they do advance! Detroit has won 1 cup without an enforcer, so i like the odds of them not winning this year. The fans can suffer watching boring games void of physical play and fighting all season
for all i care

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Old
01-18-2011, 05:16 AM
  #37
Vatican Roulette
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bileur View Post
No you're still underrating him, Neil does not ride the pine.

Since the lockout, the following are the forwards in the NHL with more than 3 top 10 finishes in hits (among forwards), in parentheses are their salaries :

Brown - 6 times (3.175 million)
Neil - 5 times (2 million)
Ovechkin 5 times (9.538 million)
Cooke 4 times (1.8 million)
Ott 4 times (2.95 million)
Fisher 3 times (4.2 million, also available if you're interested)
Morrow 3 times (4.1 million)
Clutterbuck 3 times (1.4 million, RFA contract)
Hunter 3 times (2 million)

Hunter has not made the top 10 in several years. Clutterbuck's salary cannot be compared because he signed his contract as an RFA. Cooke is the only one who really makes Neil's contract look bad considering he kills penalties, but he also does not bring some things Neil does.

Neil is more than an "alright" fighter. He can usually take care of all but the the top heavyweights, and can hold his own against those as well. None of the other guys on this list are anywhere near the fighter Neil is. Most of them are better scorers or better defensive players, hence the higher salary, but he clearly brings something very rare to the table among NHL forwards with his mix of fighting ability, hits and ability to take a regular shift. He is not easy to replace.

Also, I know the Red Wings do not put as much value in physical play as some other teams, and IIRC their stat counters are usually pretty stingy with the hits but here are Neil's hit stats since the lockout, with the Red Wings forward leader between parenthesis

2010-2011 - 143 (Abdelkader 100)
2009-2010 - 245 (Helm 188)
2008-2009 - 163 (Kopecky 109)
2007-2009 - 204 (Kopecky 111)
2006-2007 - 288 (Maltby 125)
2005-2006 - 221 (Maltby 118)

Not really the type of player the Wings usually look for but he would bring something that the team has not had in a long time. Something that is absolutely not easy to find.

Again, whether you want him or not is a separate issue, you're entitled to want whichever style of players you want for your team. But he is not some 4th line scrub that can be easily replaced by a random AHL call-up.



I'd say his momentum changing hits and physical play would help. It certainly sets a tone for a game or a series. He can also help make room for your skill guys and ensure guys like Datsyuk do not have to fight, putting Neil out for the occasional shift with Zetterberg and Datsyuk would calm guys like Perry right down.
It might, but scoring does that too.

So in summary, Neil can fight and hit. He does nothing else and costs 2 million of cap room which Detroit doesn't have. He also takes a lot of penalties(a lot of stupid ones as well at bad times) so he puts your team on the PK a lot.

Detroit is designed to take the abuse and kill them on the PP. A player like Neil does not help Detroit win games. In fact, they use their bottom 6 as penalty killers and forecheckers that wear down the other teams defense. Since Neil doesn't kill penalties, he would be on the bench for Detroit.

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Old
01-18-2011, 05:24 AM
  #38
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Interesting, this insinuation that being a leader in hits is some sort of achievement. Some of the players who lead the league in hits are gratuitous hitters who often take themselves way out of position to go for relatively meaningless hits. Some of them bring other things to the table, definitely, and many are good defensive players. But leading the league in hits is not a big deal, and as the highly successful Red Wings prove time and time again, strong positional defense and strategy will win out over mindless physicality.

Besides, if you look at the top 20 in hitting in the NHL, Neil might be the second least valuable player on the list after Matt Martin.

Terrible deal for DET.

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